OC vs. CC vs. BG / draw speed

j4l said:

...But, again method of carry and training with that method can be just as quick w/ practice...

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I don't have issue with a lot of your commentary except for this blatantly incorrect statement.

Concealed will always be slower than OC, and does not contribute to the positive reinforcement of society as a "danger zone" to criminals as CC advocates would love to push the idea that the "mystery gun" or the "Ya never know who..." ideology does.

I sit and think about these arguments and literally fold them over and over again in my mind, and frankly, CC just flat out makes no sense in the end.

It's entire presence as a carry method is based on the following:

-Yielding to societal discomforts on behalf of hoplophobes
-The "ninja" ideology, that counter ambushing an ambush is a wise and prudent idea.
-That somehow criminals will be "more concerned" about the possible hidden firearm, than the absolute presence of open carrying citizens.

slowfiveoh said:

I don't have issue with a lot of your commentary except for this blatantly incorrect statement.

Concealed will always be slower than OC, and does not contribute to the positive reinforcement of society as a "danger zone" to criminals as CC advocates would love to push the idea that the "mystery gun" or the "Ya never know who..." ideology does.

I sit and think about these arguments and literally fold them over and over again in my mind, and frankly, CC just flat out makes no sense in the end.

It's entire presence as a carry method is based on the following:

-Yielding to societal discomforts on behalf of hoplophobes
-The "ninja" ideology, that counter ambushing an ambush is a wise and prudent idea.
-That somehow criminals will be "more concerned" about the possible hidden firearm, than the absolute presence of open carrying citizens.

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I dont disagree with you,for the most part. I do not like CC in the least. But it is what Im forced into/stuck with in order to legally carry,since my spineless politicos in my State killed off our OC effort with their last-minute betrayal.
That being the case, I have to work-around the CC method.So I make sure to practice extensively with draw/rapid 1st shot from my method of CC in order to try to mitigate the handicap it forces on me.
Not to do so would be utterly foolish. Oddly though, a surprising number of CC folks who pack one every day, rarely-if ever- actually practice drawing and firing from their mode of CC (be it pocket, ankle, IWB or whatever). Instead you see them at controlled firing ranges picking up a pistol off a bench, and plinking holes into stationary,paper targets..
That practice method alone is going to do them no good whatsoever if/when they ever actually have to draw and fire in a real life shooting.

since9 said:

Cover is great when it's immediately available. When it's not, however, a single second looking for cover means five less shots I can throw at a BG.



I practice both CC and OC draws all the time. I'm down to 1.2 seconds for CC, and 0.25 seconds for the latter. That's about 5 shots worth.

Put simply, if cover is IMMEDIATELY available, I might take it. If the situation is critical enough that I should take cover, it's probably critical enough I should probably take action, instead.

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With good situational awareness, you should already know if cover is available. Even if it isn't, at the moment you know things are going south, it's usually a good idea to move. If you don't practice shooting while you move, you should.

One factor everyone has neglected in this discussion is that the perp, who has drawn on you, knows that you have a gun if you OC & therefore might be inclined to shoot if he sees any movement towards your gun. He knows that your movement is a major threat to him. BUT if he has no idea that you are hiding a gun under your shirt then he might, and I say only might, hesitate to fire since he isn't sure that what you are doing is a lethal threat to him. Maybe this hesitation only is long enough to equal the playing field with the OC victim. The problem is no two situations are exactly alike & no two perps will react exactly alike. There is no way of knowing if OCing or CCing is the better choice until the lead flies. That's my opinion & yes it means something.:banana::monkey

You have sooo much to learn.

ET. said:

One factor everyone has neglected in this discussion is that the perp, who has drawn on you, knows that you have a gun if you OC & therefore might be inclined to shoot if he sees any movement towards your gun. He knows that your movement is a major threat to him. BUT if he has no idea that you are hiding a gun under your shirt then he might, and I say only might, hesitate to fire since he isn't sure that what you are doing is a lethal threat to him. Maybe this hesitation only is long enough to equal the playing field with the OC victim. The problem is no two situations are exactly alike & no two perps will react exactly alike. There is no way of knowing if OCing or CCing is the better choice until the lead flies. That's my opinion & yes it means something.:banana::monkey

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Some food for thought,if you will.
We-all of us-have this tendancy to project how we think/feel/react to things onto the minds/mindsets of the potential criminal/enemy.
We also make all kinds of assumptions that said enemy (criminal or otherwise) is putting a whole lot of rational/sane thought into what he's doing/planning to do/etc.
As often as not, these guys dont really have a plan going in, or havent always thought things through as rationally as you and I would or do.
Things are often-of the moment-type/opportunity to do something moments-if and when the person is even rational.
This is without even factoring in things like emotional state (what if it isnt a criminal/armed-citizen scenario,but instead some irate person in a dispute?) and whatever effects that may have-from person to person-on rational thought.

It also goes to the core of the 2 philosophies: OC/CC.

CC- the other guy doesnt know for sure if I have a gun. this will give me some element of surprise,should the enemy try something.And/or the other guy may be somehow less-likely to try something,becuase I might be armed and able to defend myself.

Both concepts are flawed:
What element of surprise is there to the guy who hasnt practiced drawing from his IWB/retention-device crippled holster hidden beneath his tucked in shirt,for example?
Might Bad Guy Jones,upon seeing CC Smith getting himself all tangled up in his attire,while fumbling with his retention device,decide-hmm i think this guy's going for a gun-let's put a few rounds into his ass before he figures out how to get that thing working?

And the other- how many cases do we know of, where rounds were actually exchanged between combatants armed with pistols-concealed or otherwise-where the location of the sidearm had any impact on whether or not Bad Guy Jones decided to stay and shoot it out?

As for OC Johnson, he's likely assuming that-"I got this big honkin .500 S&W on my hip. Aint no one gonna dare mess with me." going on in his head.
That may be true enough. But again, that assumes the other guy is rational/sane to begin with. Because anyone with 2 living brain cells between his ears would have to be nuts to try to mug the guy with that on his hip for all to see.Or to escalate a dispute with him to the point of violence.

But what about John Q. Methead, who's tweaking, and needs some cash for his next fix? In his state of mind (for lack of better term) all he's caring about at the moment is getting his hands on OC Johnson's cash. He may not even clue in on the .500 ,or even care. He may decide to do what he's gotta do-because he NEEDS that fix.

Most people dont notice the OC weapon. I know this because I OC 99% of the time. The criminal who is "casing the joint" isnt going to do anything, he's on recon, he'll attack later when you're not there, if he notices at all, or he will see your OC and move on to greener pastures. If he is there to do his thang, then he's either high, jonesing, or too amped up on adrenaline and watching for the cops to ever see you OC, especially if you are practicing good SA and acting accordingly. You should almost always be able to see this unfolding. If the everyday joe doesnt notice, then dont expect the criminal to "take you out first". That point of view is laughable. It has never happened, and even if it did, the odds are 1 in like a kabillion. Meanwhile the perp is dealing with you, while the sheeple get a chance to run that they wouldn't have otherwise had.

stainless1911 said:

Most people dont notice the OC weapon. I know this because I OC 99% of the time. The criminal who is "casing the joint" isnt going to do anything, he's on recon, he'll attack later when you're not there, if he notices at all, or he will see your OC and move on to greener pastures. If he is there to do his thang, then he's either high, jonesing, or too amped up on adrenaline and watching for the cops to ever see you OC, especially if you are practicing good SA and acting accordingly. You should almost always be able to see this unfolding. If the everyday joe doesnt notice, then dont expect the criminal to "take you out first". That point of view is laughable. It has never happened, and even if it did, the odds are 1 in like a kabillion. Meanwhile the perp is dealing with you, while the sheeple get a chance to run that they wouldn't have otherwise had.

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Not really disagreeing with you-but..
What does this say of the armed criminal who intentionaly,openly, engages a cop who is in full uniform,and quiet obviously,openly armed? Deterrent itself has not worked in such a case.Nor should it expect/be assumed to work in ours.
Some folks are just going to do what theyre going to do. But- sucessful deterrent or not,we should at least be/be able to be equipped to deal with the situation as best we can-whatever the reasons it happens.

SA is great, and a must-but itself is no more a magic-pill,than OC or CC deterrent.
Example: (much as I hate to use this one) Read the 1st few pages of the 9/11 report.
The hi-jackers got onto the planes, and carried out their attacks despite any number of deterrent measures in place-both open and concealed.
They even still managed to get on those planes,even after half of them had been stopped,double-checked at checkpoints at the airports when one thing or another raised suspicions-and still they were passed on through.
Once on the planes, there is little to nothing indicating that any of them broadcast their intentions to the crew and/or other passengers amongst them-until they sprung their attack.
They sailed right through dozens,if not hundreds of active situational awareness situations-by dozens of different organizations and persons. NO ONE saw it coming.
Extreme example, but it just shows that SA is great-but it doenst always catch everything.Cannot be counted on alone to carry the day,or to get the drop on the enemy.

All true, but people did see it coming, but were not listened to, didnt think it was important enough, and were disarmed, so those who could have and would have done something, couldnt do anything,. If we had 2A on 911, things would have ended very differently. We prolly would have lost the planes, but that's it.

The perception of police vs. civillian is way different. Apples/oranges. People expect to see a cop armed, OC, and they do not expect to see civillians armed, OC, or CC. If you took a cops gun away, believe me, most people would never see the absence of the gun, likewise with civillian OC, people seldom notice.

stainless1911 said:

All true, but people did see it coming, but were not listened to, didnt think it was important enough, and were disarmed, so those who could have and would have done something, couldnt do anything,. If we had 2A on 911, things would have ended very differently. We prolly would have lost the planes, but that's it.

The perception of police vs. civillian is way different. Apples/oranges. People expect to see a cop armed, OC, and they do not expect to see civillians armed, OC, or CC. If you took a cops gun away, believe me, most people would never see the absence of the gun, likewise with civillian OC, people seldom notice.

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Really? Let's ask our UK friends about that one....

Would you expect to see a UK cop without a gun? Of course, would you expect to see an American one without a gun? No. Try to keep up.

j4l said:

Some food for thought,if you will... What element of surprise is there to the guy who hasnt practiced drawing from his IWB/retention-device crippled holster hidden beneath his tucked in shirt,for example? Might Bad Guy Jones,upon seeing CC Smith getting himself all tangled up in his attire,while fumbling with his retention device,decide-hmm i think this guy's going for a gun-let's put a few rounds into his ass before he figures out how to get that thing working?

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This stereotype of the CCer fumbling & getting all tangled up in his attire isn't where most CCer's competency level is. Just because we choose to CC doesn't mean that we do it to hide our inadequancies. We CC because we feel it gives us the situational environment that we feel the most comfortable with. If any CCer hasn't practiced drawing enough while wearing their everyday attire to be totally competent, then they are compromising their safety and the safety of their loved ones, just as an OCer would compromise their's without practicing ad nauseum. I realize that you need to project this stereotype to make your point, but it truly isn't realistic, of course I'm basing this on my experiences with the CCers that I know & my own amount of practice. Just saying...

If the CCers would all OC like the good guys are supposed to, the gun control laws would evaporate in very short order.

The only advantage to CC is when you are on the offensive, the citizen must remain on the defensive.

"If you want to stop losing your rights, then stop hiding them in your pockets and under your shirts."

"If any CCer hasn't practiced drawing enough while wearing their everyday attire to be totally competent, then they are compromising their safety and the safety of their loved ones,"

and that's all im saying,as well. I CC also, but I make sure to train with that mode of carry in mind. Im not anti-CC, much as I dislike being restricted to CC as the only legal means of carry away from the home.
Sad fact is,though, a large number of CC folks dont train like this often-if at all.

j4l said:

Not really disagreeing with you-but..
What does this say of the armed criminal who intentionaly,openly, engages a cop who is in full uniform,and quiet obviously,openly armed? Deterrent itself has not worked in such a case.Nor should it expect/be assumed to work in ours.

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Non sequitur.

It is extremely rare that armed criminals intentionally and openly engage cops. Rather, it is the cops who engage the criminals, who then use their concealed weapons in response. There is no correlation at all between a cop attempting to detain, investigate, or arrest someone who is willing to use deadly force to escape, and an ordinary citizen open carrying in the presence of an unknown criminal.

Yard Sale said:

Got any video of those quarter-second draws?

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No, but a couple of folks from here saw me on Saturday after our OC breakfast meet here in the Springs.

No worries, though - Bob Munden's 0.02 second draw is quite safe from my comparatively slow 0.25 second draw, hence the lack of videos, as it's nothing to brag about.

KBCraig said:

Non sequitur.

It is extremely rare that armed criminals intentionally and openly engage cops. Rather, it is the cops who engage the criminals, who then use their concealed weapons in response. There is no correlation at all between a cop attempting to detain, investigate, or arrest someone who is willing to use deadly force to escape, and an ordinary citizen open carrying in the presence of an unknown criminal.

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Not what Im saying at all-you missed the point completely. Im saying we have this tendancy to project the way WE think/feel/whatever onto how everyone else does. There's a lot of criminals out there who are not deterred by armed folks- being citizens CC or OC, or when confronted- LEOs who are in uniform and OC by nature of their occupation. They do "what they gotta do" regardless.

Actually, it is exactly what you are saying.

You are making your argument based upon rarities. Criminals are not seeking out the police to engage them. Criminals are not targeting OCers. Overwhelmingly, criminals avoid police and armed citizens. Not to say that there would never be the odd case (surely a nutjob), but changing tactics intended to deal with the overwhelming majority of contingencies, making those tactics less effective, based solely on a minuscule minority of contingencies would be foolhardy.

eye95 said:

Actually, it is exactly what you are saying.

You are making your argument based upon rarities. Criminals are not seeking out the police to engage them. Criminals are not targeting OCers. Overwhelmingly, criminals avoid police and armed citizens. Not to say that there would never be the odd case (surely a nutjob), but changing tactics intended to deal with the overwhelming majority of contingencies, making those tactics less effective, based solely on a minuscule minority of contingencies would be foolhardy.

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Not to mention that in either case, unobstructed retrieval of your firearm is preferable.

eye95 said:

Actually, it is exactly what you are saying.

You are making your argument based upon rarities. Criminals are not seeking out the police to engage them. Criminals are not targeting OCers. Overwhelmingly, criminals avoid police and armed citizens. Not to say that there would never be the odd case (surely a nutjob), but changing tactics intended to deal with the overwhelming majority of contingencies, making those tactics less effective, based solely on a minuscule minority of contingencies would be foolhardy.

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Let;s try some reading-comprehension, just for giggles.
I didnt say a thing about some criminals (with more balls than brains) seeking out or targeting anyone. Simply said some arent intimidated/deterred by someone's means of carry-OC/CC/LEO or otherwise. Not all of them are going to run off with soiled pants at the sight of your little .38. They may be inclined instead to engage.