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Thread: Tenderfoot Questions on Open Carry

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Tenderfoot Questions on Open Carry

    Howdy Folks!
    I am brand new to this forum, and this is like my 2nd post since signing up. I am also pretty darn new to firearms ownership. I purchased several firearms in the past month, primarily for home protection. These are the first weapons I've owned in something like 30 or 35 years, and I am concerned with open carry rights in Colorado.

    It had been my hope that HB-1205 would find its way into law, but it looks like that measure is stalled and unlikely to see passage in this session of the General Assembly. But hey, Colorado is an open carry state, right?

    Now with that in mind, I live in Aurora and work in Brighton. As I checked out the forum, I saw where one man was given trouble while openly carrying in Loveland, and another in a Kohls store in Aurora. These incidents beg certain questions from a tenderfoot like me.

    First question is what jurisdictions respect the right of a citizen to open carry, and what jurisdictions will make life troublesome for that same citizen?

    It is my understanding that Denver, contrary to the state Constitution, does not seem at all deterred from banning open carry.

    So the question is where is open carry permissible, and where is it likely to result in hassle?

    Surely do thank ya'll for any insight you might share on such questions as a new gun owner might ask.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum!

    I live in Aurora also. For the most part, I've never had any problems OCing in Aurora. I've been asked to leave a couple stores (Walmart, Target, and a Burger King...I think that's it) but when I talked to management they apologized for what happened and said they were fine with OC. These were the exceptions rather than the rule.

    Obviously, OC is illegal in Denver and since Aurora and Denver are right next to each other, just be careful about inadvertently crossing into Denver.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entartet17 View Post
    Welcome to the forum!

    I live in Aurora also. For the most part, I've never had any problems OCing in Aurora. I've been asked to leave a couple stores (Walmart, Target, and a Burger King...I think that's it) but when I talked to management they apologized for what happened and said they were fine with OC. These were the exceptions rather than the rule.

    Obviously, OC is illegal in Denver and since Aurora and Denver are right next to each other, just be careful about inadvertently crossing into Denver.
    Howdy Pard!
    Nice of you to share your insights. I surely do appreciate that.
    After I posted my original questions, I decided to see for myself. I needed to deposit some money into the bank at TCF (6th and Chambers) and went inside as usual. Nobody batted an eye, and I did my business and left without any issues.

    Then I decided to visit Home Depot because I need a leaf blower. Really need it bad because my rock garden looks nasty with last year's fall folliage still presenting an eyesore rather than a nice looking patch of rocks. Anyhow, I walked in and had to go clear to the opposite end of the store. Again, not a blink of an eye over my pistol. Then I went out to my car and decided I should check on paving stones. I walked into the outdoor garden center and once more had to walk to the complete opposite side of the store. I didn't find what I wanted, but went back to my car without any incident.

    So, as you can see, I've stuck my toes in the water and didn't get to meet any of our fine local constabulary. Next time out, I'll feel much better about carrying my weapon with me.

    Thanks again for your reply.

    Oh, and I make every effort to stay out of Denver to begin with. They got gangs that attack folks for no other reason than to humor themselves.
    If I can't carry, I don't need to visit Denver. Of course, that also means I won't spend any money there either.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 04-22-2011 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Oh, and I make every effort to stay out of Denver to begin with. They got gangs that attack folks for no other reason than to humor themselves.
    Is Aurora really different in that regard? Of course my concern is Brighton is more likely the meth-heads who will attack you because they think you're a baloney sandwich or something.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 04-22-2011 at 05:36 PM.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Is Aurora really different in that regard? Of course my concern is Brighton is more likely the meth-heads who will attack you because they think you're a baloney sandwich or something.
    Howdy Pard!
    Thanks for joining the discussion!
    As for Aurora being different in that regard, I've never heard of any gangs hereabouts beating the living daylights out of a young couple for no evident reason.

    Peter Boyles, on a rare departure from Obama bashing about the birth certificate thing, did a couple of days about that story. Seems this nice young couple went into a convenience store on Broadway south of Evans and a gang came in and tore them up something terrible. The female suspect pounded on the wife at one end of the store while half a dozen punks lit into her husband. Cops were on the scene promptly 20 minutes later. Nice!

    I've never heard anything like that happening in Aurora.

    As for Brighton, I work up there and never had a moment of trouble. There was one punk who stuck a pistol in my face near Peoria and 1st avenue who demanded the money I was carrying. A regular John Dillenger type who made off with $40 bucks, maybe. Aurora P.D. was on the scene at my office when I returned, and so far as I know, never caught the guy. But it was only one guy, not a whole gang of them. And aside from jangled nerves, I was relatively unharmed.

    But that particular incident left me feeling like I didn't ever want to be victimized like that again. Ever.

    I think you're right about meth-heads in the Brighton area, but I think it is more an Adams County issue at large rather than Brighton itself. I could be wrong on that one, but I've never been fearful about Brighton. Aurora, yeah some. But not like Denver! My sentiment is that I just stay clear of Denver. The primary difference being, I can carry in Aurora, but can't in Denver. So folks getting beaten senseless is much easier for punks because they don't much worry about armed citizens getting in their way.

    Thanks again for your response.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I've been down here in Texas for a while, and of course the handgun carry issue here is strange, and peculiar to Texas. There's a bill in committee in the Texas House that should be voted out onto the House floor next week that would relax current restrictions, allowing licensed "open carry " in Texas - if enacted.

    Texans are beginning to deal with the question of how they might approach the private premises issue. I'm of the opinion that if a person is known to be a regular customer - known to the employees, etc the odds are good that you won't have any problems. More than that - it's NOT ABOUT PROBLEMS - a law-abiding armed citizen exercising his right to bear arms SHOULD BE AN ASSET TO ANY ENVIRONMENT- NOT A PROBLEM.
    You want the ggod citizens that you interact with to feel , SAFER, MORE SECURE by your visibly armed presence.

    Texans - after 140 years of having their right to publicly bear a handgun confiscated, and impounded under Reconstruction policy that has "conveniently" been clung to by State government - are busting at the seams to get out their and bear a holstered handgun publicly.

    I've preached for years in Colorado that it's all about how you present yourself. How you dress - your general appearance - how folks perceive you.

    A person - say in Colorado - can apply the notion that "open carry" is legal in Colorado - outside of Denver . Now is that Denver thing just "pending" until it comes before the FULL court again- or is it considered "resolved". If it is resolved , then the political climate COULD start rolling up some of the assumed "open carry" territory. Recall that Obama won Colorado in 2008. He didn't win in Texas, and he never will.

    If you folks in CO don't use some discretion - and by that I mean exercise caution- you could see that NO -OC zone expanding outward from Denver.

    Too much PUSHING AGAINST private premises preferences & policies - which have to be respected- and you will find MORE " DISPLAY OF FIREARMS PROHIBITED " signs popping up.

    I know stores like Walmart (for now) abide by State law - but THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

    Just some thoughts I wanted to share about approaching private premises with respect and prudence.

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    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    Howdy M-Taliesin and welcome aboard!

    I live in Denver, but spend a fair amount of time in Lakewood. Toward the end of last year is when I started to OC. I haven't had any problems OC to date and I've been up in Idaho Springs, Golden, Aurora and Lakewood. I recommend spending some time reading old posts so that you know some good ways to handle various encounters, of course being familiar with the law and your rights pertaining to OC is very important. I carry a voice recorder and use it whenever I leave the house, just in case. There are plenty of old posts that make the case for that. Respecting private property rights is crucial, too. Rushcreek2 made a very good point. We should be respecting private property rights just as much as the 2A. Anyway, I'm glad you found the forum. It's great to see how OC is catching on.

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    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I've OCed in Loveland several times now. I'm new to the area and haven't OCed in CO before (only WA, UT, and NH). I was surprised at how little attention it got. I carry a Springfield XD 4" in a SERPA holster worn crossdraw (paranoid about someone grabbing at an OCed pistol from behind if worn at 3 o'clock position). Not exactly subtle carry.

    To my astonishment, I don't think a single person even noticed. Either that or they didn't even look at the thing. The sole exception would be the law enforcement I happened across. I walked into Subway for dinner and there was a Larimer CO Sheriff Deputy and a Loveland PD officer eating. They took note (no question they saw my sidearm), nodded to me, and went back to eating as soon as I struck up a friendly conversation with the Subway worker and ordered a sandwich.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    An Update!

    Howdy Folks!
    As I haven't OC'd before, and while awaiting responses to my original questions, I decided to simply give it a try for myself to see what happened. I had a couple of errands I needed to run, and I figured this would be a good experiment in the real world.

    So I headed over to the TCF bank near my home where I have an account. I walked in, waited my turn for a teller to invite me over, smiled and greeted the teller in a friendly manner, and made my deposit. Nobody seemed to notice, or if they did, made no deal out of my sidearm. With my transaction finished, I headed for the exit.

    Just as I stepped outside, a fellow who spoke in the voice of a foreigner also left the bank just a couple of strides behind me. He most certainly was checking me out, and I made eye contact and gave a warm "howdy" along with a smile and walked to my car. As I was unlocking my vehicle, he opened his car door and spoke to his passenger in a foreign language that I didn't understand. I got the impression by his glances in my direction that I might well be the topic of his comments to his friend. Perhaps a manifestation of surprise or curiosity, but he went his way, and I went mine.

    Then I headed over to Home Depot. While the folks at the bank see me fairly frequently, I seldom visit Home Depot and folks there wouldn't know me so much. My purpose was to buy a leaf blower for my rock garden. The 50% rule fell into effect as I walked in the door. If I have a 50/50 chance of entering the wrong side of the store, I'll pick the wrong door nearly 100% of the time! I approached the first clerk I saw, smiled and asked where I could find leaf blowers. Sure enough, clear on the other side of the darn store. So I walked clear over there and smiled and said hello to other customers as I made my way to the garden department area.

    Once I got there, I asked another clerk where the leaf blowers were. He indicated I needed that first aisle on the end and I walked over and started checking them out. After a minute or two, he joined me to give assistance in making my choice. I selected one and he asked if I needed anything else. I asked about roto tillers and he showed me their location and escorted me there. He also suggested that unless I would need it for frequent use, I might be better served by simply renting one to do the job rather than spending the money to buy one. I thanked him and headed for the checkout.

    All in all, I didn't encounter any problems with anybody at Home Depot. Nobody said anything or looked untoward at my carrying a holstered pistol on my person.

    I also learned something. The cliche is "An armed society is a polite society." Carrying enhanced my awareness of my demeanor while in public. Making eye contact with passers-by, smiling at them and extending a hello or howdy or how ya doin?, seemed to pave the way for them to be comfortable with the fact that I was armed. I think it made me more aware of their sensitivities and by displaying a friendly demeanor, put them at ease. In short, made me more polite in general. That's likely a good thing.

    The one exception was after taking my wife to the range to fire our new weapons, we decided to get some grub on our way to the homestead. So... not having eaten Chinese in awhile, we stopped in at a local restaurant to order take out. We walked in, again with a friendly smile and friendly banter, and made our order. There was one individual sitting in a booth who kept staring at me and appeared disturbed by my sidearm. I kept him in my peripheral field of view as my wife and I sat at a table to await our order. When I'd glance over in his direction, he would invariably be glaring at me. I simply remained aware of him while chatting with my wife. Once our order arrived, we got up from the table where we waited and headed out to the car.

    So that's the experience I gained from my first outing with OC in Aurora, and what I learned along the way.

    When out with my sidearm in OC, I will be aware of the sensitivity of others and try to put them at ease by showing a friendly and non-threatening demeanor. Should I encounter a location where they ask me to remove my sidearm, I'll respectfully honor their wishes, although I may disagree personally. They have a right to request compliance with their perspective on their own private property, even if they are open to the general public. Similarly, I have the right to shop elsewhere if I find it repressive.

    There's the tale of my first outing yesterday, and I'd say in general that everything went very well. And I also found my awareness of others around me to be raised to a keen level while armed.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    M-Taliesin- I recently found out first hand that OC (actually, guns in general) are looked at as a cause for concern in the Asian community. Up until about two weeks ago I was making a weekly purchase at a local Vietnamese grocery store in Lakewood while OC of course. I was probably in there over a dozen times without incident before I was asked not to OC there, at the owner's request, by a very friendly and professional security guard who incidentally was only allowed to CC. The security guard and I had a very pleasant conversation about how he too wished to see OC become more normal and part of everyday life, but that the owner did not want to upset any of his Asian customers by the mere sight of a gun. I asked him to please let the owner know that I would be taking my business elsewhere. The security guard assured me that he would not budge on banning OC in his establishment and would shortly be posting a sign at the entrance. After talking for over ten minutes about a number of things I directed him to this forum then we shook hands and parted. Despite having to find a new OC friendly market on my side of town that sells pig heart, liver and kidney among other things I'd say it was a good encounter. Point is, it doesn't surprise me that you got some looks from a disturbed fellow in the Chinese restaurant you visited the other day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    I also learned something. The cliche is "An armed society is a polite society." Carrying enhanced my awareness of my demeanor while in public. Making eye contact with passers-by, smiling at them and extending a hello or howdy or how ya doin?, seemed to pave the way for them to be comfortable with the fact that I was armed. I think it made me more aware of their sensitivities and by displaying a friendly demeanor, put them at ease. In short, made me more polite in general. That's likely a good thing.
    I like this guy.

    Lokster, I don't think Taliesin said the person glaring at him in the restaurant was Asian himself. One of the local OC gatherings we did was at a Chinese restaurant and they were very welcoming. Of course, that was in Firestone, not a city with a larger concentrated Asian population, so I couldn't speak to the culture.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    In reference to my visit to a Chinese restaurant hereabouts, and the glare I noticed from one other patron, I am pretty confident that the individual in question was not Asian. Just wanted to touch on that particular point for clarity.

    My motivation in carrying openly is for personal protection and the protection of others within my vicinity. I am not interested in presenting an air of intimidation to others around me, with whom I interact or pass by when going about my business. I hope that the message I convey to others is that I am a friendly and affable guy who is prepared should a threat arise... to myself, or them.

    Since finding this forum, I have done quite a bit of reading on a variety of topics on a number of different boards. Some folks articulate their desire to OC more clearly than others. Some have motivations that I haven't seen clearly presented. A few seem to be a bit confrontational, and that ain't where I want to stand.

    My grandmother said frequently enough when I was a boy "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." By having a positive interaction with the public while OC'ing, it is my hope that they will see a plain ole fashioned guy who is very much like them. I'd like them to think of me as a neighbor, fellow citizen, helpful and of no threat to them. To do otherwise is to alienate them, possibly leading to their moving toward an anti-OC position. It seems a little thing to offer a warm smile, friendly hello, and courteous demeanor in dealing with the public. Why would we wish to "turn them off" even when they disagree with our right to carry?

    I've been thinking about my response should someone speak to me about my firearm carried openly. What will I say? How will I respond to their concerns? Can I win them over or will I likely lose them? My hope is to comport myself in such a manner that they'll understand, if not entirely agree, with my position on OC. When such an encounter comes, and I'm sure it is only a matter of time, I anticipate saying something like "I understand your concern. If I may explain for a moment, I hope you'll appreciate that my motives are sound and logical." If they are willing to discuss the subject, I am happy to share my perspective and listen to their opinions on the matter. Maybe buying them a cup of coffee in the bargain wouldn't hurt either.

    As I said earlier, in the end, they may not agree but will have a better picture of why I OC and how I am no threat to them or their family. In fact, when the chips are down, they'd very much appreciate me or someone of like mind being there to defend their very lives. I could help them understand that the average police response time is 6 minutes from what I've seen somewhere or another. By that time, whatever prompted the call is already over, damage done. The intercession of an armed citizen could make the difference when it really matters most.

    Just as I believe that some OC'ers do not articulate their position well on the forum, I'd be curious how they articulate their rights when interacting with another citizen in public. But more importantly, wonder how well such a citizen can articulate their concern when they see an OC'er on the street or in a store? I would guess that most of them don't like seeing folks carrying but are unable to explain why they don't like it. I doubt many of them have considered the matter before seeing someone openly carrying a firearm in public. I doubt they have formulated an opinion based on information but are responding from a mostly reactionary perspective. As such, I may be the only OC person they ever meet. It is incumbant upon me to give them an entirely positive experience so they better understand and are better informed about OC.

    Whether we like it or not, each of us is an ambassador of sorts for OC. The fewer folks we alienate, the better. The more who can grasp our perspective, the better. They don't need to agree with my position, but at least they'll better understand it.

    And if I can do that, I'll have made a positive stride in my community. Maybe, along the way somewhere, I might even make a new friend or two!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  13. #13
    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    I like this guy.

    Lokster, I don't think Taliesin said the person glaring at him in the restaurant was Asian himself. One of the local OC gatherings we did was at a Chinese restaurant and they were very welcoming. Of course, that was in Firestone, not a city with a larger concentrated Asian population, so I couldn't speak to the culture.
    I suppose you're right, mahkagari. Before my experience a couple weeks ago I couldn't really speak to the culture either. In January I had dinner with a couple of my Korean friends at a Korean restaurant in Aurora. That was the first time I OC around my friends and as I explained my reasons for making the decision to OC they didn't seem bothered at all nor did anyone in the restaurant appear bothered by the visible presence of a gun. After my conversation with the security guard it started to make some sense to me that in general Asians who might not be well assimilated to life in America might be nervous and bothered by guns. After all outside of America most countries don't acknowledge the rights that are exercised here and it made even more sense to me that they might equate guns with force or coercion instead of liberty and freedom.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I am brand new to this forum, and this is like my 2nd post since signing up. I am also pretty darn new to firearms ownership. I purchased several firearms in the past month, primarily for home protection. These are the first weapons I've owned in something like 30 or 35 years, and I am concerned with open carry rights in Colorado.

    It had been my hope that HB-1205 would find its way into law, but it looks like that measure is stalled and unlikely to see passage in this session of the General Assembly. But hey, Colorado is an open carry state, right?

    Now with that in mind, I live in Aurora and work in Brighton. As I checked out the forum, I saw where one man was given trouble while openly carrying in Loveland, and another in a Kohls store in Aurora. These incidents beg certain questions from a tenderfoot like me.

    First question is what jurisdictions respect the right of a citizen to open carry, and what jurisdictions will make life troublesome for that same citizen?

    It is my understanding that Denver, contrary to the state Constitution, does not seem at all deterred from banning open carry.

    So the question is where is open carry permissible, and where is it likely to result in hassle?

    Surely do thank ya'll for any insight you might share on such questions as a new gun owner might ask.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    You're WAY up on the regs compared to most, so:

    1. OC all you want here in the sate of Colorado, except for anywhere it's posted (signs outside establishes, usually malls, libraries, PD offices, etc.), as well as the more formally forbidden, including courthouses or anywhere else there's an erected metal detector.

    2. Denver city/county is the only major no-no. That's because they both think they special, as well as they're massively mistaken with respect to the armed citizen to crime ratio stats. Apparently, despite more than 100 years worth of attempts, they remain incapable of basic mathematical statistics

    So sad.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokster View Post
    M-Taliesin- I recently found out first hand that OC (actually, guns in general) are looked at as a cause for concern in the Asian community. Up until about two weeks ago I was making a weekly purchase at a local Vietnamese grocery store in Lakewood while OC of course. I was probably in there over a dozen times without incident before I was asked not to OC there, at the owner's request, by a very friendly and professional security guard who incidentally was only allowed to CC. The security guard and I had a very pleasant conversation about how he too wished to see OC become more normal and part of everyday life, but that the owner did not want to upset any of his Asian customers by the mere sight of a gun. I asked him to please let the owner know that I would be taking my business elsewhere. The security guard assured me that he would not budge on banning OC in his establishment and would shortly be posting a sign at the entrance. After talking for over ten minutes about a number of things I directed him to this forum then we shook hands and parted. Despite having to find a new OC friendly market on my side of town that sells pig heart, liver and kidney among other things I'd say it was a good encounter. Point is, it doesn't surprise me that you got some looks from a disturbed fellow in the Chinese restaurant you visited the other day.
    Life is cheap in SEA. They often bring that fear with them when they come here, or are taught it by older family members. Even when I was there, in Thailand, you could see fear and or mistrust when they saw a pistol carried by an Airmen in civvie clothes which we wore when going downtown. More so from the many VN refugees than the Thais.

    "Pig heart, liver and kidney..." why not settle for porkchops at Safeway?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post

    "Pig heart, liver and kidney..." why not settle for porkchops at Safeway?
    About 30% of my dog's diet is various organ meat and I like to feed him something other than chicken liver every once and awhile. It's hard to find that stuff at Safeway or Wallyworld.

  17. #17
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    You're WAY up on the regs compared to most, so:

    1. OC all you want here in the sate of Colorado, except for anywhere it's posted (signs outside establishes, usually malls, libraries, PD offices, etc.), as well as the more formally forbidden, including courthouses or anywhere else there's an erected metal detector.

    2. Denver city/county is the only major no-no. That's because they both think they special, as well as they're massively mistaken with respect to the armed citizen to crime ratio stats. Apparently, despite more than 100 years worth of attempts, they remain incapable of basic mathematical statistics

    So sad.
    Howdy Since9!
    I very much appreciate your reply to my original question. Thank you for taking time to confirm this for me.

    Since I first wrote, I have OC'd openly while going about my business without incident. Haven't yet been approached by an LEO, but figure that's only a matter of time. I did call Brighton P.D. to ask them about O.C. and it does not appear they are "up to speed" on the status of my rights to carry openly.

    My motivations are about self defense, and I do not seek confrontation with anybody. It would be illogical to think that confrontation will not come, but I do not hope to bring about any such confrontation. Still I know that sooner or later, I will be approached by an LEO or other authority regarding my sidearm. It is worn with an eye toward my own personal protection and defense and for defense of my family and those around me. I hope I am prepared should such confrontation arise. How well preprared can only be demonstrated when such emerges. I will stand on my rights and rule of law, and hope things will be smooth when all is said and done.

    This particular practice (OC) is new to me, so it is new and unknown territory so far as I am concerned. I do not shrink from boldly going where I haven't gone before, but do like to be prepared when the unexpected presents itself.

    I digress, however. Thank you for your reply, and I thank you for your time in addressing my question.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 04-30-2011 at 08:13 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Life is cheap in SEA. They often bring that fear with them when they come here, or are taught it by older family members. Even when I was there, in Thailand, you could see fear and or mistrust when they saw a pistol carried by an Airmen in civvie clothes which we wore when going downtown. More so from the many VN refugees than the Thais.
    Howdy Gunslinger!
    First, I want to thank you for your service to our country. All Americans owe you a huge debt of gratitude for your sacrifice on behalf of our nation, along with all who serve in uniform.

    I haven't been to any Asian nations, but considering the horrific violence there that resulted from gun toting thugs, i.e. Pol Pot and others of that ilk, I can understand their fear. Throw in a few wars with rogue guerilla elements, and that fear is substantiated by their own experience. But it wasn't the gun that brought them horror, but the men who wielded them.

    We've been to Mexico, and that's a whole can of worms to itself. With the current situation being what it is now, I wouldn't again visit northern Mexican cities feeling comfortable without some sort of self defense at hand. Then again, with things as they are in Colorado, I don't feel confident on the streets of our own cities without the ability to defend myself. On a nearly daily basis, the news is filled with stories about how innocent people going about their own peaceful business; are attacked, assaulted and harmed by thugs in their own communites, homes and places of business. I believe we've all seen how Colorado has changed over the past 20 years, and how vulnerable the citizenry is without any ability to defend themselves.

    Unfortunately, I believe things will only continue to get worse. Economic conditions continue to deterriorate. Law enforement officers face lay-offs, and there are likely to be fewer on the streets in the near term. Response time is already an issue, and likely to be worse in the future. Local governments continue to spend vast sums of money to build edifices to their own bloated egos while putting cops out of their jobs. Adams County, for example, has enacted a hiring freeze and it looks likely that deputies are going to be laid off soon because of budgetary concerns. Meanwhile, they've built a massive and nearly monolithic new administration building south of Brighton. County commisioners have squandered a huge pile of money to build a new and fancy home to ensconce themselves at taxpayer expense while looking to put employees of Adams County on the unemployment line for tax payers to support!?!?!

    What it looks like at this time is that we must arm ourselves for our own protection, because there won't be that many cops around to do the job for us. We'd better be prepared to take care of ourselves, and that means exercising our right to bear arms. It is clear the BG's will. If we are not prepared for our own defense, we may find we are at the mercy of those who are prepared for the offense.

    It is a sad commentary on our times, but the situation in Adams County is repeated over again, time after time, in jurisdiction after jurisdiction.

    I honor our LEO's and respect them as honorable men and women. It is unfortunate that there may soon be far fewer of them around to respect in the future.

    Thank you again for your service to our nation, and I am thankful there are people who accept the commitment and sacrifice of defending our country.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  19. #19
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Gunslinger!
    First, I want to thank you for your service to our country. All Americans owe you a huge debt of gratitude for your sacrifice on behalf of our nation, along with all who serve in uniform.

    I haven't been to any Asian nations, but considering the horrific violence there that resulted from gun toting thugs, i.e. Pol Pot and others of that ilk, I can understand their fear. Throw in a few wars with rogue guerilla elements, and that fear is substantiated by their own experience. But it wasn't the gun that brought them horror, but the men who wielded them.

    We've been to Mexico, and that's a whole can of worms to itself. With the current situation being what it is now, I wouldn't again visit northern Mexican cities feeling comfortable without some sort of self defense at hand. Then again, with things as they are in Colorado, I don't feel confident on the streets of our own cities without the ability to defend myself. On a nearly daily basis, the news is filled with stories about how innocent people going about their own peaceful business; are attacked, assaulted and harmed by thugs in their own communites, homes and places of business. I believe we've all seen how Colorado has changed over the past 20 years, and how vulnerable the citizenry is without any ability to defend themselves.

    Unfortunately, I believe things will only continue to get worse. Economic conditions continue to deterriorate. Law enforement officers face lay-offs, and there are likely to be fewer on the streets in the near term. Response time is already an issue, and likely to be worse in the future. Local governments continue to spend vast sums of money to build edifices to their own bloated egos while putting cops out of their jobs. Adams County, for example, has enacted a hiring freeze and it looks likely that deputies are going to be laid off soon because of budgetary concerns. Meanwhile, they've built a massive and nearly monolithic new administration building south of Brighton. County commisioners have squandered a huge pile of money to build a new and fancy home to ensconce themselves at taxpayer expense while looking to put employees of Adams County on the unemployment line for tax payers to support!?!?!

    What it looks like at this time is that we must arm ourselves for our own protection, because there won't be that many cops around to do the job for us. We'd better be prepared to take care of ourselves, and that means exercising our right to bear arms. It is clear the BG's will. If we are not prepared for our own defense, we may find we are at the mercy of those who are prepared for the offense.

    It is a sad commentary on our times, but the situation in Adams County is repeated over again, time after time, in jurisdiction after jurisdiction.

    I honor our LEO's and respect them as honorable men and women. It is unfortunate that there may soon be far fewer of them around to respect in the future.

    Thank you again for your service to our nation, and I am thankful there are people who accept the commitment and sacrifice of defending our country.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Thank you. It was my honor to serve our country. If standards for hiring police officers are tightened--substantially, we can get by with far fewer than we have. If layoffs are simply pushed, by seniority, so called law and order will suffer. That being said, "when you have seconds to live the cops are minutes away" is one of those simplistic statements which are absolutely true. You have the ultimate responsibility for your and your family's survival. Not the cops, not the government. That is why our right to keep and bear arms is the greatest imperative we have. It has often been said that if you take away the 2nd Amendment you take the other BoRs away as well. Being armed and committed to the use of those arms protects us against the dirtbag on the street and the imperial government equally.

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    M-Taliesin:

    Please Refer to This Article: http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs/open-carry

    aadvark

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Oh, and I make every effort to stay out of Denver to begin with. They got gangs that attack folks for no other reason than to humor themselves.
    The only municipality in Colorado where one can't open carry is the one where gangs are the most brazen. Interesting "coincidence."

    How's that working for you, Denver?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    You have the ultimate responsibility for your and your family's survival. Not the cops, not the government. That is why our right to keep and bear arms is the greatest imperative we have. It has often been said that if you take away the 2nd Amendment you take the other BoRs away as well. Being armed and committed to the use of those arms protects us against the dirtbag on the street and the imperial government equally.
    I've heard it said, "The First Amendment was created to protect the Second, while the Second Amendment was created to protect our Constitution, all its Amendments, and our way of life."

    I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.
    Last edited by since9; 04-29-2011 at 12:14 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.
    Har!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The only municipality in Colorado where one can't open carry is the one where gangs are the most brazen. Interesting "coincidence."

    How's that working for you, Denver?



    I've heard it said, "The First Amendment was created to protect the Second, while the Second Amendment was created to protect our Constitution, all its Amendments, and our way of life."

    I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.
    Looking back all these centuries, it still amazes me that the Founders had such wisdom. Can you imagine a Constitutional Convention today with obooba, pelosi and schumer in attendance? Makes you want to heave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Looking back all these centuries, it still amazes me that the Founders had such wisdom. Can you imagine a Constitutional Convention today with obooba, pelosi and schumer in attendance? Makes you want to heave.
    LOL. If you take a good look at the shenanigans the constitutional convention and the continental congress got up to before coming up with our system, you'll want to heave.

    Picture yourself back 200+ years ago and you send your delegates to fix the Articles of Confederation which recognized state sovereignty and had very specific rules for interstate action. The delegation includes the three people you noted, or anyone else you may or may not agree with. You're expecting them to come back with revisions to the Articles to settle ongoing disputes. Instead, they spend your tax money to lock themselves in a room for a couple of months without telling anyone what they're doing and instead have revising the Articles, they broke the law it laid down, ignored any procedure that may have existed to amend it, scrapped the entire existing system of government and come up with this new Federalized power in this new fangled "constitution" that will establish a higher level government over the states. Keep in mind that this is right after you just fought a war to get rid of a strong centralized government for not recognizing state sovreignty as its highest value. Note that this was before the Bill of Rights and 1A and 2A were written.

    Actually, the only reason 1A and 2A and the Bill of Rights were written is because the people were throwing a FIT about this illegal government takeover the Constitution Convention staged. In their "wisdom" they assumed that they didn't need to codify the rights of the people, that their new federal government by its size and diversity would be too large and complex to orchestrate the trampling of individual rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    LOL. If you take a good look at the shenanigans the constitutional convention and the continental congress got up to before coming up with our system, you'll want to heave.

    Picture yourself back 200+ years ago and you send your delegates to fix the Articles of Confederation which recognized state sovereignty and had very specific rules for interstate action. The delegation includes the three people you noted, or anyone else you may or may not agree with. You're expecting them to come back with revisions to the Articles to settle ongoing disputes. Instead, they spend your tax money to lock themselves in a room for a couple of months without telling anyone what they're doing and instead have revising the Articles, they broke the law it laid down, ignored any procedure that may have existed to amend it, scrapped the entire existing system of government and come up with this new Federalized power in this new fangled "constitution" that will establish a higher level government over the states. Keep in mind that this is right after you just fought a war to get rid of a strong centralized government for not recognizing state sovreignty as its highest value. Note that this was before the Bill of Rights and 1A and 2A were written.

    Actually, the only reason 1A and 2A and the Bill of Rights were written is because the people were throwing a FIT about this illegal government takeover the Constitution Convention staged. In their "wisdom" they assumed that they didn't need to codify the rights of the people, that their new federal government by its size and diversity would be too large and complex to orchestrate the trampling of individual rights.
    Fortunately, we had James Madison in the right place and at the right time.

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