Tenderfoot Questions on Open Carry

M-Taliesin said:

Oh, and I make every effort to stay out of Denver to begin with. They got gangs that attack folks for no other reason than to humor themselves.

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The only municipality in Colorado where one can't open carry is the one where gangs are the most brazen. Interesting "coincidence."

How's that working for you, Denver?

Gunslinger said:

You have the ultimate responsibility for your and your family's survival. Not the cops, not the government. That is why our right to keep and bear arms is the greatest imperative we have. It has often been said that if you take away the 2nd Amendment you take the other BoRs away as well. Being armed and committed to the use of those arms protects us against the dirtbag on the street and the imperial government equally.

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I've heard it said, "The First Amendment was created to protect the Second, while the Second Amendment was created to protect our Constitution, all its Amendments, and our way of life."

I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.

since9 said:

I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.

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Har!

since9 said:

The only municipality in Colorado where one can't open carry is the one where gangs are the most brazen. Interesting "coincidence."

How's that working for you, Denver?



I've heard it said, "The First Amendment was created to protect the Second, while the Second Amendment was created to protect our Constitution, all its Amendments, and our way of life."

I've also heard it said that just after James Madison penned the First entry in The Bill of Rights, he thought, "How in the world are the people going to enforce that against a tyrannical government?" before thinking, "Oh, yeah..." and penning the Second.

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Looking back all these centuries, it still amazes me that the Founders had such wisdom. Can you imagine a Constitutional Convention today with obooba, pelosi and schumer in attendance? Makes you want to heave.

Gunslinger said:

Looking back all these centuries, it still amazes me that the Founders had such wisdom. Can you imagine a Constitutional Convention today with obooba, pelosi and schumer in attendance? Makes you want to heave.

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LOL. If you take a good look at the shenanigans the constitutional convention and the continental congress got up to before coming up with our system, you'll want to heave.

Picture yourself back 200+ years ago and you send your delegates to fix the Articles of Confederation which recognized state sovereignty and had very specific rules for interstate action. The delegation includes the three people you noted, or anyone else you may or may not agree with. You're expecting them to come back with revisions to the Articles to settle ongoing disputes. Instead, they spend your tax money to lock themselves in a room for a couple of months without telling anyone what they're doing and instead have revising the Articles, they broke the law it laid down, ignored any procedure that may have existed to amend it, scrapped the entire existing system of government and come up with this new Federalized power in this new fangled "constitution" that will establish a higher level government over the states. Keep in mind that this is right after you just fought a war to get rid of a strong centralized government for not recognizing state sovreignty as its highest value. Note that this was before the Bill of Rights and 1A and 2A were written.

Actually, the only reason 1A and 2A and the Bill of Rights were written is because the people were throwing a FIT about this illegal government takeover the Constitution Convention staged. In their "wisdom" they assumed that they didn't need to codify the rights of the people, that their new federal government by its size and diversity would be too large and complex to orchestrate the trampling of individual rights.

mahkagari said:

LOL. If you take a good look at the shenanigans the constitutional convention and the continental congress got up to before coming up with our system, you'll want to heave.

Picture yourself back 200+ years ago and you send your delegates to fix the Articles of Confederation which recognized state sovereignty and had very specific rules for interstate action. The delegation includes the three people you noted, or anyone else you may or may not agree with. You're expecting them to come back with revisions to the Articles to settle ongoing disputes. Instead, they spend your tax money to lock themselves in a room for a couple of months without telling anyone what they're doing and instead have revising the Articles, they broke the law it laid down, ignored any procedure that may have existed to amend it, scrapped the entire existing system of government and come up with this new Federalized power in this new fangled "constitution" that will establish a higher level government over the states. Keep in mind that this is right after you just fought a war to get rid of a strong centralized government for not recognizing state sovreignty as its highest value. Note that this was before the Bill of Rights and 1A and 2A were written.

Actually, the only reason 1A and 2A and the Bill of Rights were written is because the people were throwing a FIT about this illegal government takeover the Constitution Convention staged. In their "wisdom" they assumed that they didn't need to codify the rights of the people, that their new federal government by its size and diversity would be too large and complex to orchestrate the trampling of individual rights.

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Fortunately, we had James Madison in the right place and at the right time.

Meanwhile, back at the topic...

Howdy Folks!
This thread has turned up some interesting information. Since I joined up on this forum, I've learned a whole bunch about Colorado laws. I wasn't aware I'd be spending as much time studying up on law, but guess 'them's the berries'.

I have experimented with carrying openly and not had any trouble whatsoever so far. I even dropped in at Kohl's in Brighton and the 7-11 in that town and nobody raised an eyebrow in my direction.

Trying to be the responsible type, I called Brighton P.D. to get some insight into their attitude toward open carry. Fine in the car, they say, but quoted several ordinances that would prohibit open carry in Brighton. Evidently they haven't checked out C.R.S. 29-11.7-101, 103 and 104; or Article 2 Sections 3 & 13 of the Colorado Constitution. It appears they are not aware of their status relative to pre-emption. I'm a little uneasy about openly carrying in Brighton, but intend to stand by these legal provisions as I exercise my rights.

Meanwhile, I am still curious if anybody has OC'd in Brighton, and whether they met resistence while doing so.

Hope to see some experiential replies regarding Brighton and other towns in Adams County.

Thanks folks!
Blessings,
M-Taliesin

What did they quote about Brighton?

mahkagari said:

What did they quote about Brighton?

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Howdy Pard!
In my first telephone contact with Brighton P.D., they quoted CRS regarding open carry in a vehicle, but indicated that open carry could be a problem. They did not offer specific CRS support for that contention, and alluded to unspecified municipal ordinance.

The overall discussion was somewhat ambiguous as to their position.

Being a "ducks in a row" sort of guy, I checked again this morning (actually, about 2 minutes ago) and learned that they recognize my Constutitional right to open carry. So, I'll be headed up there shortly and will be carrying openly as I meet with the wife, share lunch together and go about my other business in Brighton throughout the day. Will see how it goes and comment on my experience.

It is likely I may encounter an L.E.O., but so long as I comport myself reasonably, I expect there will be no problem with that either.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

M-Taliesin said:

Howdy Pard!
In my first telephone contact with Brighton P.D., they quoted CRS regarding open carry in a vehicle, but indicated that open carry could be a problem. They did not offer specific CRS support for that contention, and alluded to unspecified municipal ordinance.

The overall discussion was somewhat ambiguous as to their position.

Being a "ducks in a row" sort of guy, I checked again this morning (actually, about 2 minutes ago) and learned that they recognize my Constutitional right to open carry. So, I'll be headed up there shortly and will be carrying openly as I meet with the wife, share lunch together and go about my other business in Brighton throughout the day. Will see how it goes and comment on my experience.

It is likely I may encounter an L.E.O., but so long as I comport myself reasonably, I expect there will be no problem with that either.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

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While towns can limit OC, they cannot prohibit it in its entirety due to state preemption. The exception being Denver County. Peaceful passage on non-town owned property cannot be limited, again except for the PDR of Denver, in any manner. And even the local limitation must be clearly posted. Remember, it is not legal to OC anywhere in CO. It is simply not unlawful. CC solves all of the problems everywhere, including the PDR, and carry in any way you choose in your vehicle is also fully protected.

Gunslinger said:

While towns can limit OC, they cannot prohibit it in its entirety due to state preemption. The exception being Denver County. Peaceful passage on non-town owned property cannot be limited, again except for the PDR of Denver, in any manner. And even the local limitation must be clearly posted. Remember, it is not legal to OC anywhere in CO. It is simply not unlawful. CC solves all of the problems everywhere, including the PDR, and carry in any way you choose in your vehicle is also fully protected.

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Howdy Gunslinger!
Well, I think the legality of O/C lies expressly in article 2, sections 3 and 13 of our state Constitution. Then there is CSR 29-11.7-101. Pretty much seems like they are restricted by these particulars from bothering an OC'er. The language of section 3, in particular, is pretty strong. That whole inalienable right thing is tough to get around. But if, in reality, it renders OC NOT unlawful, then the reasonable assumption is that it must be lawful. If it is not prohibited by law, it cannot be unlawful, therefore legal for all intent and purpose. Still, I grasp your point, and while it may be a fine-line difference, it would seem reasonable to rely upon those specifics as lawful activity. No, ain't no law that says ya can OC, but there is strong language against infringing on that right, which include the right to *bear arms*. Since they can (evidently) restrict concealed carry to permit holders, that ends up forcing OC for one who wishes to bear arms in accord with their rights.

Anyhow, all that aside, I had a good day in Brighton. Met my wife and we went to lunch and enjoyed the hour together before I moved on to several places where I had business to conduct. Nobody said anything to me regarding my sidearm, and I never encountered an LEO either. Just another regular day for a regular guy who was minding his own peaceful business while armed.

All in all, a pretty good day made better by finding a nice little 10k gold bracelet while in town. I like finding gold, and tend to find more than most folks. There were some places posted "No Firearms", so I simply locked up my pistol in the glove box of my locked car while I hunted for gold today.

Thanks for your reply, and I was fine while OC'ing in Brighton. No problems at all.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

M-Taliesin said:

All in all, a pretty good day made better by finding a nice little 10k gold bracelet while in town. I like finding gold, and tend to find more than most folks. There were some places posted "No Firearms", so I simply locked up my pistol in the glove box of my locked car while I hunted for gold today.

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Therein is my problem with businesses prohibiting firearms. I may be "safe" inside their business, however walking to and from my car with an apparent amount of cash/jewelry doesn't make me feel good about having my gun locked in my glove box.

mahkagari said:

Therein is my problem with businesses prohibiting firearms. I may be "safe" inside their business, however walking to and from my car with an apparent amount of cash/jewelry doesn't make me feel good about having my gun locked in my glove box.

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Howdy Mahkagari!
I probably could have written my sentence better. None of the businesses had signs prohibiting firearms, but local parks did. The city parks are posted prohibiting firearms. On one sign at one particular park, that sign said "Use of firearms", which isn't the same as the majority that said "Prohibited: Firearms, glass bottles, golf," etc, etc. Just to mix matters up more, one park I visited wasn't posted at all. Meanwhile, another just a few blocks away is. Bewildering, ain't it?

So to clarify, businesses were fine and were not posted. I should have said parks were posted, some differently than others, and some not at all!

Thanks for your response. I agree that the trip to the car and back again can be difficult if that sidearm is locked in the glove box when I need it most!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

I have oc'd in and around Brighton without incident. Kohl's is a different story. I was kicked out of the Kohl's in Aurora for OC. Kohl's policy is to handle issues regarding carry on a case by case basis. If a customer complains they will ask you to leave. They would not provide their policy in writing........YMMV.

Beau said:

I have oc'd in and around Brighton without incident. Kohl's is a different story. I was kicked out of the Kohl's in Aurora for OC. Kohl's policy is to handle issues regarding carry on a case by case basis. If a customer complains they will ask you to leave. They would not provide their policy in writing........YMMV.

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Howdy Beau!
Yes, I've seen a post or two about Kohl's in Aurora, and perhaps the incident I read about was your post. Do not recall who authored that post, but the person writing said he had a nice talk with their security guy about OC.

While in Brighton, I visited Kohl's and paid on my credit card. I did not have any trouble there. The bottom line is, they can ask an individual to leave if they wish. That individual can easily shop elsewhere if that is their choice. Their private property rights will be honored by law abiding citizens. Bad guys won't much care whether they are permitted to carry where not permitted anyhow, considering they are also willing to do crime at the outset. Denying the law abiding citizen to carry only serves to enhance their odds that a criminal will see them as a viable target.

But in fairness, I have not had any incident at the Kohl's in Brighton. They handled my transaction in a warm and friendly fashion and I went my merry... and on to my next business of the day.

Thanks for your respone, Beau!
I appreciate learning of your experience in Brighton.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin