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Thread: McDonalds Attack - Justification or Not

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    McDonalds Attack - Justification or Not

    I do not know where this attack occurred, but my question is whether in Virginia the use of deadly force would be justified in this case to protect this girl from death or serious bodily injury. Note I do not know her current condition.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048
    Last edited by Fenris; 04-22-2011 at 04:50 PM. Reason: typo

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I do not know where this attack occurred, but my question is whether in Virginia the use of deadly force would be justified in this case to protect this girl from death or serious bodily injury. Note I do not know her current condition.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048
    Happened in 6300 block of Kenwood Avenue, Rosedale in Baltimore County, MD
    http://www.wbaltv.com/r/27640819/detail.html
    Last edited by USNA69; 04-22-2011 at 05:11 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I watched this a couple hours ago. It wasn't Virginia but why would you need to use deadly force to break up a fight between 3 women?

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I watched this a couple hours ago. It wasn't Virginia but why would you need to use deadly force to break up a fight between 3 women?
    How could you be sure that none of them has a knife or a gun?
    Maybe they would forget about their little disagreement and all turn on you.
    Maybe their armed friends (or really big boyfriends), who were only spectators, would enter the fray against you.

    These days, you can never be sure.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    How could you be sure that none of them has a knife or a gun?
    Maybe they would forget about their little disagreement and all turn on you.
    Maybe their armed friends (or really big boyfriends), who were only spectators, would enter the fray against you.

    These days, you can never be sure.
    Why did I have to ask...I already knew the answer.

    MAYBE....terrorists with M60's were flipping burgers during their off hours too.

    A pair of Yankee women jumped another Yankee woman for whatever reason. Yankee's behave that way.

    I watched the video and there wasn't anyone in the place that I couldn't have thrown out and not spilled my double cheese burger.

    Why is it that some here want to use their gun instead of a little old fashioned force.
    What if doesn't count.

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    Sorry. My fault for not making my question more clear. I wasn't asking whether engaging would be wise or whether there might be a lower force alternative. My question is whether, in Virginia, it would be legally justified to employ deadly force to stop this girl from getting her head kicked/stomped, which at least in my eyes clearly presents a threat of death or serious bodily injury.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Sorry. My fault for not making my question more clear. I wasn't asking whether engaging would be wise or whether there might be a lower force alternative. My question is whether, in Virginia, it would be legally justified to employ deadly force to stop this girl from getting her head kicked/stomped, which at least in my eyes clearly presents a threat of death or serious bodily injury.

    NO, it wouldn't!
    The only reason it presented a threat was because no one bothered to stop it and there was nothing that showed it couldn't have been stopped without killing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ...why would you need to use deadly force to break up a fight between 3 women?

    I watched the video and there wasn't anyone in the place that I couldn't have thrown out and not spilled my double cheese burger.

    Why is it that some here want to use their gun instead of a little old fashioned force.
    What if doesn't count.
    Peter, while a little off topic on whether it is justified. But personally I lack your confidence in my physical awesomeness. I am old. I am very fat. I have already had two back operations. I have a bad knee. And I carry a gun. Which means not only am I likely to lose the fight, but my gun may very well be taken from me and used on me (or the girl.)

    So again I ask, is deadly force justified?

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    Regular Member pyite's Avatar
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    That is a difficult question. Stomping someone's head could definitely kill them but in that situation I think I would have just laid those two b1tches out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Why did I have to ask...I already knew the answer.

    MAYBE....terrorists with M60's were flipping burgers during their off hours too.

    A pair of Yankee women jumped another Yankee woman for whatever reason. Yankee's behave that way.

    I watched the video and there wasn't anyone in the place that I couldn't have thrown out and not spilled my double cheese burger.

    Why is it that some here want to use their gun instead of a little old fashioned force.
    What if doesn't count.
    Really +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    NO, it wouldn't!
    The only reason it presented a threat was because no one bothered to stop it and there was nothing that showed it couldn't have been stopped without killing them.
    So I'm clear. Are you saying that if two people are kicking and stomping a girl's head then deadly force is not legally justifiable. I take it then that if it were your head being kicked and stomped and you were unable to physically prevail, that you would not draw your weapon but rather submit to the deadly assault?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    So I'm clear. Are you saying that if two people are kicking and stomping a girl's head then deadly force is not legally justifiable. I take it then that if it were your head being kicked and stomped and you were unable to physically prevail, that you would not draw your weapon but rather submit to the deadly assault?

    Are you just going to repeat and rephrase as much as possible until you get the answer you want from somebody?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
    Are you just going to repeat and rephrase as much as possible until you get the answer you want from somebody?
    No. But I am curious why this doesn't qualify as self-defense of another. I guess stomping/kicking are a safe way to kill someone since lethal self-defense would be off the table. Or is it only women that get a pass on attempted murder by stomp?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    A pair of Yankee women jumped another Yankee woman for whatever reason. Yankee's behave that way.
    No Yankee would ever consider 3 women from Maryland to be "fellow Yankees". Where I come from, Maryland is considered part of the South.

    I guess your view depends on where you are viewing from.....location, location, location!
    Last edited by ProShooter; 04-22-2011 at 06:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    No. But I am curious why this doesn't qualify as self-defense of another. I guess stomping/kicking are a safe way to kill someone since lethal self-defense would be off the table. Or is it only women that get a pass on attempted murder by stomp?
    What are you talking about? Did you watch Office Space recently and whip out your own jump to conclusions map? Throwing the attackers off, while not the same as shooting them to make them stop, is a form of defending the one being attacked... believe it or not. When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    No Yankee would ever consider 3 women from Maryland to be "fellow Yankees". Where I come from, Maryland is considered part of the South.

    I guess your view depends on where you are viewing from.....location, location, location!
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_505412.html

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I do not know where this attack occurred, but my question is whether in Virginia the use of deadly force would be justified in this case to protect this girl from death or serious bodily injury. Note I do not know her current condition.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048
    I saw this earlier today too and thought the same question.

    I could not stand by and do nothing while such a beating took place. I may have not unholstered and tried to intervene like the older lady seen in the video did but with more force. I would hope the sight of my holstered gun would encourage them to take my demand to stop seriously.

    Even though I think the above would be a moral action, I could easily see any escalation to deadly force being closely scrutinized by a district attorney and the outcome of that analysis would probably be very skewed to whatever that DA's political agenda was.

    So my answer would be yes but my two cents are worth less every day, darn fiat currency!!! :-)
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 04-22-2011 at 07:10 PM.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Peter, while a little off topic on whether it is justified. But personally I lack your confidence in my physical awesomeness. I am old. I am very fat. I have already had two back operations. I have a bad knee. And I carry a gun. Which means not only am I likely to lose the fight, but my gun may very well be taken from me and used on me (or the girl.)

    So again I ask, is deadly force justified?
    Not your fight.

    Intervene knowing there is potential for your own peril.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Intervene knowing there is potential for your own peril.
    Where is HankT to comment on this thread? (shooting an unarmed person...)

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    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Just Yell

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    From a look at those women the fight would have been forgotten. While they graze on the free grub, slip the victim out the side door.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I may have told the victim to get in the corner and stay behind me. I would verbally warn the others they should leave and if they came towards me I would drop them.
    Carry On.

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    Responses seem to break down along a few different lines.

    1. Not my business.
    Q. OK. Perfectly reasonable reason to not get involved. Though a little non-responsive on the question of whether or not deadly force is legally justified. So bring it closer to home. The victim is either your daughter/sister/wife. So now you have a dog in the fight. Is deadly force legally justified?

    2. I'm strong enough I'd just smack down them thugs. No gun needed.
    Q. OK. Perhaps you are strong enough. But what if due to age or infirmity you're not? Or if you just don't want to start wrestling people while wearing a gun? So we're back to the same question. Is deadly force legally justified? Remember if you're carrying, every fight is a gun fight. So if you don't think deadly force is justified why the heck are you doing bringing a gun into the fight?

    3. What's a little beat down between friends?
    Q. This girl is sufficiently beaten to the point that she loses consciousness and starts convulsing. Sounds like a deadly threat to me. But what do I know. Maybe no one has ever died from being beaten so it's no biggie.

    I honestly am not sure I would get involved or not if the victim is a stranger. But I do not think there can be any real doubt that this beat down was a deadly threat. Therefore, I believe engagement with deadly force would be legally justified. IF I did engage, it would only be to stop the threat of death (or serious injury), and no I'm too old/infirm to wade in hands on.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The victim is either your daughter/sister/wife. So now you have a dog in the fight. Is deadly force legally justified?
    I thought about that before I responded but decided not to include it. If that were the case they would all probably be dead or severely injured; the law be damned. Still doesn't answer your question...


    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    But I do not think there can be any real doubt that this beat down was a deadly threat.
    I agree, but I'm not certain a court would.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-22-2011 at 08:28 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I may have told the victim to get in the corner and stay behind me. I would verbally warn the others they should leave and if they came towards me I would drop them.
    Ed,

    This is a relatively small space and there are two assailants. I'm not sure how to apply Tueller.

    Would you have your hand on gun? Gun drawn? Held low or high?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Ed,

    This is a relatively small space and there are two assailants. I'm not sure how to apply Tueller.

    Would you have your hand on gun? Gun drawn? Held low or high?
    Exactly. Now you have to worry about brandishing. I can't draw my gun that fast, and I have no hand to hand combat skills other than those provided by nature. I'm also not that strong, or at least not strong enough to keep back 3 raging women at once.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-22-2011 at 08:29 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    I think Ed is pretty close

    Isn't the main reason we OC is to defend ourselves? We are not law enforcement officers. I would hope in this situation that OC without demonstration could have prevented or stopped this attack. Going back to point one, is this not a secondary reason to OC?
    I would like to say yes.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
    Robert A. Heinlein
    Last edited by riverrat10k; 04-22-2011 at 08:53 PM. Reason: reference stuck me with a link

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