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Thread: Can they take your recorder away?

  1. #1
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    Can they take your recorder away?

    I will go out on a limb and say any regular visitor to this forum knows that it is a good idea to carry a voice or video recorder with you when you OC. There are more and more examples showing up, of the logic of this, the recording from Philly only one. I must therefore wonder if as more and more people carry recorders, if LEO's, the majority of whom I have great respect for, will start trying different tactics to prevent a record of their interactions. I would say the easiest would be to simply turn of the recorder, but another I think would be to simply move the recorder away from the area and thus diminish or obscure the interaction.

    My questions then are, is it legal for a LEO to turn off a recorder and if while searching you for say "officer safety" could they place your recorder on the hood and take you back for questioning at the back of their car? Does anyone know if one can ask that their property be returned to their pockets once it's determined that it poses no danger, or must they wait till the end of the detention?

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Good luck TRYING to turn my recorder off without the PIN, which I'll NEVER disclose absent a court order.

    Damage or physically disable it and that's just evidence of additional crimes and civil torts. Evidence tampering is prima facia evidence of a guilty mind.

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    If they can take your life away..they can take anything you have away...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Good luck TRYING to turn my recorder off without the PIN, which I'll NEVER disclose absent a court order.

    Damage or physically disable it and that's just evidence of additional crimes and civil torts. Evidence tampering is prima facia evidence of a guilty mind.
    This..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Good luck TRYING to turn my recorder off without the PIN, which I'll NEVER disclose absent a court order.

    Damage or physically disable it and that's just evidence of additional crimes and civil torts. Evidence tampering is prima facia evidence of a guilty mind.
    YOU are the once recording, not the officer. So it isnt "evidence" nor would it likely be admissable as such. A key factor many of you who advocate recording everything fail to grasp.
    If in digital form, and by some small miracle you do find a court willing to admit it into evidence, be prepared to verify 100 ways to Sunday and back, that it is the original, and un-edited recording. The same standards of verifying such evidence that a LEO's evidence section have to live up to in order to sumbit such evidence against you applies equally to you, in most cases/places.

    http://www.videoforensicexpert.com/2...e-is-mandatory

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    When you upload your recording to Youtube and the media gets ahold of it the contempt of cop charges are most likely (hopefully) dropped. The recording will then be used in your civil suit against the officer, his boss, and the city.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...11#post1515511

    So what's the point of the advertisement? There is no point in recording unless we have Ed the video forensic expert on speed dial?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-24-2011 at 01:12 PM.
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    I don't carry a recorder and have never had any problem with police while open carrying in Virginia, Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina.

    However if I did think the police in my state might violate my rights, I might (after closely checking state recording laws) carry two recorders. One that's obvious, and if they confiscate it, continue recording with the covert recorder

    That way, you have a recording of the seizure of the other recorder that continues throughout the encounter.
    Last edited by Mike; 04-24-2011 at 01:20 PM.

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    No,sport, it's for the factual information regarding the acceptance of data forensics, should some Darwin Awardee on here have ideas of going to court with their "evidence".
    And, Im glad you brought up the youtube concept.Whether it has happened yet, or not, at some point,when/if these types of things become more frequent, you can probably bank on most LE dept.'s and FOP organizations looking at how to counter such things. The counter to it already exists, it's just a matter of time before someone ends up facing a DA/ADA somewhere that knows to look at it, and decides to press charges based on it.
    Once that vid gets up-loaded, congrats,genius, you've just opened the door to some Federal charges against you as well,if it is determined that said video was less than legal (ie: consent of both parties in places that require it).
    Just because no one's gotten around to it yet, doesnt mean it wont soon happen.

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    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Good point about being original

    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    If in digital form, and by some small miracle you do find a court willing to admit it into evidence, be prepared to verify 100 ways to Sunday and back, that it is the original, and un-edited recording.
    I wonder if my uploading with my IPhone using QIK to the QIK server would cover that question.
    http://qik.com/video/3705334

    The court can subpoena the answer from QIK to prove the video was uploaded and hasn't been altered.

    Chap
    Last edited by Chap; 04-24-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    No,sport, ...
    Gee wiz Dad. You've never been to the YouTubes have you? Heard of this new fangled thing called "Google"?

    They say it's your friend.


    Look! The EASTER BUNNY!
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-24-2011 at 01:35 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    I wonder if my uploading with my IPhone using QIK to the QIK server would cover that question.
    http://qik.com/video/3705334

    The court can subpoena the answer from QIK to prove the video was uploaded and hasn't been altered.

    Chap
    They can,but it would not need meet the standards for verifying whether or not the original recording wasnt alterered prior to being uploaded. Hence, the link I provided earlier. (it explains that in detail,yet briefly,without going into an entire Data Forensics s course)...The media has to be on the device that captured it originally,and in it's original format,etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Damage or physically disable it and that's just evidence of additional crimes and civil torts. Evidence tampering is prima facia evidence of a guilty mind.
    Cite for the tampering?

    They don't have to disable anything, just "disappear" it. That's what happened to one of my video cameras and my notebook.

    "What recorder? He didn't have any recorder."

    "The recorder? Sure, it's right there on the vehicle inventory. That shows it was in the vehicle when it was towed to the impound yard. Once it's towed, we can't be held responsible."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Gee wiz Dad. You've never been to the YouTubes have you? Heard of this new fangled thing called "Google"?

    They say it's your friend.


    Look! The EASTER BUNNY!
    And yes,sport, google is indeed your friend, or foe in your case, since you choose to selectively search for things..

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&b...&aqi=&aql=&oq=

    But let's save you some trouble and time. This one article details a number of cases, nation-wide ruling AGAINST the person recording. Any one have any cites to demonstrate these cases having been over-turned? These folks have been having much the same discussion as we have here-most of the answers, as they have found, were not in their favor, in the least.
    http://bikersofamerica.blogspot.com/...n-cameras.html

  14. #14
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Golly Dad! And the thousands of victims who have been exonerated by their videos, like the guy in the link I provided, are just a figment of my Easter Grass addled mind!

    That's my skull! I'm SOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo wasted!
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Golly Dad! And the thousands of victims who have been exonerated by their videos, like the guy in the link I provided, are just a figment of my Easter Grass addled mind!

    That's my skull! I'm SOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo wasted!
    Thousands? Really? Cite please...didnt think so,either. One guy/one case, and a case far from over yet, doesnt have anything to do with the other dozen or more documented cases where it has back-fired on the poor Darwin Awardee.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-24-2011 at 02:31 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Wow, unbiased sources,no less. Came prepared did we? lol. Good try,sport.


    http://lcso.leonfl.org/news/Detectiv...mmissioner.pdf

    http://il.findacase.com/research/wfr...194.SIL.htm/qx
    Last edited by j4l; 04-24-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Golly dad. You asked for sources. Video doesn't lie. Unless you are selling something that is.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Nor do actual court cases,and their ultimate outcomes.The whining of photographers about their recording without consent (again, that awful word,specifically placed in most 2-party consent state's laws) dont quiet carry the same weight..

  20. #20
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Yes, because people who know and exercise their Constitutional Rights are all whiners.

    Oh wait.





    Nice try submarining people's efforts to be prudent here. And insulting them. And completely ignoring the fact that if they record the chances they actually go to trial for criminal charges is greatly reduced.

    Goggle search: "charges dropped after video"

    http://www.google.com/search?q=charg...ient=firefox-a
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-24-2011 at 04:50 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    YOU are the once recording, not the officer. So it isnt "evidence" nor would it likely be admissable as such. A key factor many of you who advocate recording everything fail to grasp.
    ...

    http://www.videoforensicexpert.com/2...e-is-mandatory
    Your link does not support the above contention. Also, it seems that, if you maintain the original recording on the original device, you don't have to jump through the hoops that you would if you tried to present a copy.

    Don't forget the value of the recording in the media and also at a civil trial that goes after the perpetrators of a color-of-law crime.

  22. #22
    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The odds of any one of us getting a recording, our recording, to initiate criminal proceedings against a LEO who has violated our rights and the law is microscopically small.

    The odds that our recording will initiate a change in that LEOs department are far more likely. In a civil suit the odds that a payday for us is also increased. Recordings of encounters most likely will not lead to a courtroom but more likely a cash settlement. LE certainly does not want case law on the books piling up regarding amateur recordings used against ill-informed and/or under trained officers.

    If you are involved in a negative encounter and have a recording that supports your "side of the story" and disproves the LEOs side of the story always get a formal letter that includes an admission of "wrong doing" and the corrective action to mitigate any future issues by the identified LEA, or you will proceed to a civil trial, if you have the money and time that is. If you don't, take the offered money, if any and run down to the nearest spy camera store and get a better recording device. Get a couple of them in case one is confiscated.
    Right. A self-made recording gives the choice to the LEOs that would ordinarily close ranks into the thing blue line;

    - look like idiotic thugs to the media and public

    or

    - do the right thing and fix the rogue LEO problem

    True, it may not keep charges from happening, and it may "disappear", however a recording you don't make sure can't help you either.

    If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. LEOs that don't like recording are automatically bad, automatically corrupt. The logic is impeccable.

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    Interesting responses. I am still wondering about if the officer separates you from your recorder? If they place a distance between it and what it's suppose to be recording, won't they defeat the purpose of carrying it?

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    If he says anything at all, once he is aware he is being recorded..

  25. #25
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Seriously.

    Have you ever seen a video or heard a recording where the Cops shut up once they realize they are being recorded? EVER?

    They don't care WHAT they do. Even when they know they are being recorded by their own cameras. But everyone with internet on the entire planet knows this... Because the videos and records are there for everyone to witness. On those whiny hippy sites.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-25-2011 at 06:21 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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