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Thread: Employer vs Employee in CC gun rights

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    Employer vs Employee in CC gun rights

    I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death before but I unfortunately don't have the time to search the archives for something similar.

    Basically, I work a location in an extremely crime ridden area. The area of employment has been robbed many times at gun point. The vicinity around the area of employment has been the scene of many robberies/muggings at gun point. Various businesses around said area have been targeted as well.

    Current employment regulations state that both OC and CC for employees is strictly forbidden. Customers are welcome to do either. But employees are not. I understand the idea behind packing OC and intimidating some customers. I also understand that with a CC pistol an individual may try to act as a hero in the event of a robbery and cause further litigation/criminal charges against the place of employment.

    Sorry for the vagueness, jobs are hard to find.

    Regardless, my point is this. It has been proven that the from the time I clock out to the time I am in my car, there is a great degree of risk to my personal being. People are, as I said, mugged in the area somewhat often. Normally, I'd feel a bit more safe about the trip from storefront to vehicle as I'd be packing. Oh, I forgot to mention, I generally leave work late, 1145 pm to 12ish am weekdays and weekends. But my employer stipulates I cannot have any sort of sidearm during work, and therefore, by the time mugging time is prime, I am walking defenseless through a parking lot in a bad area, late at night, with the wrong amount of skin pigmentation - all without a sidearm.

    I realize that the state of Virginia gives employees power of whether an employee can wield oc or cc.... But is there no exception? Obviously, if I got robbed/mugged off the clock, on to way to my car, my employer isn't responsible, thought they were the ones that prevented me from protecting myself! Is there no way around this? Do I really need someone to drive up to the door every night to prevent something so easily preventable with gun rights?

    What do you guys think? Ive had trouble - lots of it - finding any job with decent hours lately. I am working for whatever doing whatever in order to pay off student loans and eventually go back to college. I can't really risk losing my job over this but I'd rather not die to , albeit unfortunately, to a drug addicted fiend that needs just a few more bucks for another fix? Obey the employer and risk my self or buy something very small like a snub nose 357 and conceal it well, or is there a legal process here?
    Last edited by dzien; 04-24-2011 at 01:17 AM.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzien View Post
    I realize that the state of Virginia gives employees power of whether an employee can wield oc or cc.... But is there no exception?
    Well that's their right as private property owners and... your employer.
    Quote Originally Posted by dzien View Post
    Is there no way around this? Do I really need someone to drive up to the door every night to prevent something so easily preventable with gun rights?
    You can break your employer's rules and CC while on the clock. There's risk with doing that as well. You'll have to decide if it's worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by dzien View Post
    Obey the employer and risk my self or buy something very small like a snub nose 357 and conceal it well?
    Basically.


    Welcome to OCDO. Wish it were on better terms.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-24-2011 at 01:21 AM.
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    Thanks, me too. It really suck because I am not interested in being a hero for their insured 200 dollars worth of cash. I am, however, reluctant to let any others or myself get hurt after we clock out at mid night and walk to our cars. Bad bad area. We have shopping center security though they leave before we close and are not reliable protection regardless. 1 gun 3 people. Several have been spotted drinking on the job ( which as an avid beer spirit and wine lover) I find absolutely horrible and grounds for immediate termination. But that's another story.

    Edit : I'd even settle for locking the pistol in a safe or whatnot during my shift and retrieving it postshift.... But I doubt such a proposal would be accepted.
    Last edited by dzien; 04-24-2011 at 01:28 AM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    You have summarized your situation quite clearly. You cannot compel your employer to change their policy.

    One of our frequent posters here is User, who is an attorney. He has opined (my paraphrase here) that those who prevent you from protecting your self do expose themselves to a degree of liability for your protection, however there is no law, nor any case history that I am aware of, to give you any warm fuzzies.

    The best that could be done would be to hire an attorney (such as User) to provide your employer with a written opinion stating that their policy may expose them to future liability, especially having been notified of such, should they choose to continue with said policy, if you can find an attorney (again, such as User) who would be willing to write such an opinion letter. The employer is under no obligation whatsoever to respond, of course, and even the act of advising them so might adversely affect your relationship.

    Not a great situation to be in, everyone here will agree and sympathize with you, no doubt.

    TFred

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Now I recall that Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL mentioned a while back that the VCDL was interested in getting a bill passed that would remove liability of a business for acts (self defense or otherwise) committed by an on duty employee with a firearm. Apparently insurance companies are the problem with the carry prohibition, and such a bill would remove the necessity to depend on insurers and obey their rules. I'm not sure if that's the case for your business or not. You should check out the VCDL -> http://vcdl.org/
    Last edited by t33j; 04-24-2011 at 01:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Now I recall that Phillip Van Cleave of the VCDL mentioned a while back that the VCDL was interested in getting a bill passed that would remove liability of a business for acts (self defense or otherwise) committed by an on duty employee with a firearm. Apparently insurance companies are the problem with the carry prohibition, and such a bill would remove the necessity to depend on insurers and obey their rules. I'm not sure if that's the case for your business or not. You should check out the VCDL -> http://vcdl.org/
    More than likely, yes that is the problem. I will look into VCDL more throughly ; I definitely browsed the site before coming to here for info.

    Thanks guys

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Welcome to the thread Dzien.

    For the walk to your car their are alternatives to a gun.
    Tazer (I carry mine in addition to a gun), Pepper (I recommend Bear Spray), a knife (Get some training), go to a salt water fishing store and buy a shark hook, sissy stick.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Welcome to the thread Dzien.

    For the walk to your car their are alternatives to a gun.
    Tazer (I carry mine in addition to a gun), Pepper (I recommend Bear Spray), a knife (Get some training), go to a salt water fishing store and buy a shark hook, sissy stick.
    +1

    Yes while reading through I was thinking of alternative weapons that wouldn't be prohibited by your employer. You should always have at least a knife on you even when carrying as a backup weapon.

    We have read stories of self defense like at a pizza joint when the bad guys were herding the employees into the freezer an employee pulled his CC-ed gun and shot both robbers. Not sure if he was hailed as a hero or fired. Other pizza delivery men were fired after defending themselves.

    A job isn't worth dying for but I understand your hesitation to risk your employment. My company is very ANTI and customers I visit force me to disarm before I leave my house in the morning. (military bases)

    If you do decide to carry against company policy there are many small guns out there that should allow you to conceal carry (assuming you have a CHP).

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzien View Post
    Thanks, me too. It really suck because I am not interested in being a hero for their insured 200 dollars worth of cash. I am, however, reluctant to let any others or myself get hurt after we clock out at mid night and walk to our cars. Bad bad area. We have shopping center security though they leave before we close and are not reliable protection regardless. 1 gun 3 people. Several have been spotted drinking on the job ( which as an avid beer spirit and wine lover) I find absolutely horrible and grounds for immediate termination. But that's another story.

    Edit : I'd even settle for locking the pistol in a safe or whatnot during my shift and retrieving it postshift.... But I doubt such a proposal would be accepted.
    Welcome to OCDO!

    How far way from the front door do you park? Is your vehicle within sight of the door? How well lit is the parking lot? How close to you do your coworkers park? Has your employer approached the landlord (who hires/contracts the security personnel) about extending their coverage to accommodate your after hours departure? Perhaps you could arrange some coordination to help close this security gap.

    Peter Nap has provided some excellent suggestions. I'd like to add that you consider carrying a large flashlight.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzien View Post
    I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death before but I unfortunately don't have the time to search the archives for something similar.

    Basically, I work a location in an extremely crime ridden area. The area of employment has been robbed many times at gun point. The vicinity around the area of employment has been the scene of many robberies/muggings at gun point. Various businesses around said area have been targeted as well.

    Current employment regulations state that both OC and CC for employees is strictly forbidden. Customers are welcome to do either. But employees are not. I understand the idea behind packing OC and intimidating some customers. I also understand that with a CC pistol an individual may try to act as a hero in the event of a robbery and cause further litigation/criminal charges against the place of employment.

    Sorry for the vagueness, jobs are hard to find.

    Regardless, my point is this. It has been proven that the from the time I clock out to the time I am in my car, there is a great degree of risk to my personal being. People are, as I said, mugged in the area somewhat often. Normally, I'd feel a bit more safe about the trip from storefront to vehicle as I'd be packing. Oh, I forgot to mention, I generally leave work late, 1145 pm to 12ish am weekdays and weekends. But my employer stipulates I cannot have any sort of sidearm during work, and therefore, by the time mugging time is prime, I am walking defenseless through a parking lot in a bad area, late at night, with the wrong amount of skin pigmentation - all without a sidearm.

    I realize that the state of Virginia gives employees power of whether an employee can wield oc or cc.... But is there no exception? Obviously, if I got robbed/mugged off the clock, on to way to my car, my employer isn't responsible, thought they were the ones that prevented me from protecting myself! Is there no way around this? Do I really need someone to drive up to the door every night to prevent something so easily preventable with gun rights?

    What do you guys think? Ive had trouble - lots of it - finding any job with decent hours lately. I am working for whatever doing whatever in order to pay off student loans and eventually go back to college. I can't really risk losing my job over this but I'd rather not die to , albeit unfortunately, to a drug addicted fiend that needs just a few more bucks for another fix? Obey the employer and risk my self or buy something very small like a snub nose 357 and conceal it well, or is there a legal process here?

    Your employer is different, you are on private grounds. But HE is endangering YOUR LIFE.


    I carry a flashlight it's a Surefire, nice and bright. But won't do much good in a fight. Look into pepper spray for now, there is some pretty rough stuff out there.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-24-2011 at 02:05 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    +1

    A job isn't worth dying for but I understand your hesitation to risk your employment.
    If you do decide to carry against company policy there are many small guns out there that should allow you to conceal carry (assuming you have a CHP).
    Something like a Beretta .25 is a great thing to have when you ain't got a gun.

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    I know someone who carries a Kel-Tec P3AT with a 3 round mag extension in a pocket holster with a spare mag in the other pocket while at work. The worst they could do would be to fire them if it was found out. You have to make that decision for yourself tough.

    BTW Newport News shipbuilding is hiring.
    Last edited by kimbercarrier; 04-24-2011 at 07:20 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimbercarrier View Post
    I know someone who carries a Kel-Tec P3AT with a 3 round mag extension in a pocket holster with a spare mag in the other pocket while at work. The worst they could do would be to fire them if it was found out. You have to make that decision for yourself tough.

    BTW Newport News shipbuilding is hiring.
    I don't believe they are particularly gun-friendly... at least their former parent company was not. They just got spun off into Huntington Ingalls Industries.

    TFred

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