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Thread: Q: Double-Duty HD gun suitable for man or Large,dangerous game?

  1. #1
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    Q: Double-Duty HD gun suitable for man or Large,dangerous game?

    Had a near close-call last nite.Stepped out on my porch for a smoke before locking up for the nite, when I heard, then saw something moving around by left fence. Was far too dark to make out what it was at the moment, but the .45 was out with the quickness. My dog barked at it and started growling, and then this thing stood up.
    A Black Bear!
    I shoved the dog back inside,and shut the door,but then stood there like an idiot trying to decide what to do. It just "stood" there sniffing the air (prolly my cig,it smelled) for a moment-was a good 25-30 ft. away, and not moving towards me, so I held off on shooting.
    After a moment, it went back to all-fours and moved on down my driveway and across the street to the woods,seemed like it forgot all about me, which is fine with me.
    I didnt wish to become a midnite snack, and sure didnt want to shoot this amazing thing.

    Now, afterwards, and about half a pack of smokes later,while I got my heart beating back to something like normal, I had to think this over. If this hadnt gone down like this, would my .45 been enough to stop this thing? A person, I have complete faith in it's stopping ability, but a Bear?

    So, will a .45acp do the trick? Or do I need some slugs for the 870? Or do I need to look into something more like a .44Magnum or .454 Cassul? Keep in mind, I want something powerful enough, but with reasonable recoil that I can have a hope of getting off more than 1 shot if one is coming at me.

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    Now, keep in mind, Im thinking in terms of hangun, not longun. Something I can have on me like usual. A rifle suitable, that I can have by the door,I'll consider as well though.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    You may be able to convert your .45 to .460 Rowland which actually is said to outperform .44 Magnum. If it isn't a gun that can handle .460 Roland, you can get a hell of a package with a conversion in guns like Glock 21's, any good full size 1911, M&P 45's, and XD's.

    A less powerful, potentially less expensive option is that your gun may be able to handle .45 Super with a recoil spring change only. Not the best thing out there, but much better than the low pressure relic .45 ACP.

    The option I would suggest above all else you buy a new gun is a Glock 20 C. 16 shots of 10mm is something I'd be happy to carry as a sidearm if hunting bears, but it's also still concealable if you do your part (I figure that could be the need in Florida ) and easy to shoot quickly and accurately. I am not a Ted Nugent fan, but it does say a lot that he's been daily carrying a G20 for decades. As of right now, I don't believe that a better all around carry gun exists, and as soon as one does, I'll be the first to want it.
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    I dont believe there are any .460/.45S conversions for my pistol at the moment-something I'd actually considered once before. Im comfy with/a good shot with my .45 for SD/OC vs. humans.But for around the home, Im leaning towards a good SA revolver in .44,along with perhaps a lever-gun in same, I think.
    I've been debating a carbine/lever-gun for around the house-w/ the intent of same ammo for rev./rifle or carb. Had been considering .45Colt for this, but could just as easily go .44Mag for that. Spoke to some folks I know who both have hunted bear, and all suggested .44 Mag in 240 JSP for that purpose. Both type guns and ammo are widely available locally, and inexpensive.

    10mm isnt bad, but is almost never stocked ,locally, that I've seen. And when it is, it seems to be expensive compared to other loads.

    Any other options? Again, wont be hunting, or carrying these over any great distances/length of time, and my ranges will only avg. out to about 50m-75m at max.

    I consider this an extremely remote encounter,one I doubt will repeat, but.. one never knows. Other dangerous critters known to be in my area are Coyote and some rather large Boar, but encounters with these are almost as uncommon as the bear
    Also, to be clear- I really have no intent of shooting these, if it can be avoided.
    Last edited by j4l; 04-24-2011 at 11:43 AM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    For some guns 45 super isn't a conversion if the stock parts can handle it, it's the same size as .45 ACP and uses the same slide, barrel and magazine. Such as HK's, which I've heard can handle 45 Super with just a different spring.

    10mm is easy to reload, easy to order, and super easy to get a .40 barrel for practice if you insist on factory ammo.

    .44 Magnum kicks and flips a lot harder than a well compensated auto with the same power, and it has a lot less rounds on tap which are harder to reload under pressure. I'm not going to argue with you if you're devoted to the idea of getting into wheel guns, but just make sure you actually try some realistic combat type target shooting before you actually make that move.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-24-2011 at 02:04 PM.
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    Nah,havent made any decisions yet-just considering options.

    Usually recoil spring and firing pin are swapped on Super conversions, I believe. Is ACES even still in biz? I thought they'd faded out a few years back??...

    Not shooting the 10mm down, just I dont reload,and would prefer something more readily available in my area. .40 I wont even touch for SD use, any more than I would consider 9mm,so If I did go 10, I'd just stick with full-power 10mm loads.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...php?source=rss

    I would say a 45acp gun is better than nothing but would think a 44 magnum would be better. If you have really large hands you can get a desert eagle in 44 or 50AE. They are too big for me to want to carry.

    If you can I would keep a shotgun with slugs near the door.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 04-24-2011 at 01:42 PM.

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    Nah, hands are too stubby for a DE,much as I'd like one lol.
    (oddly enough, I can find .50AE ammo near here by the ton- Gold Dots,no less, for $20/box-yet couldnt get 10mm if I had to...makes no sense,but..)

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Not shooting the 10mm down, just I dont reload,and would prefer something more readily available in my area. .40 I wont even touch for SD use, any more than I would consider 9mm,so If I did go 10, I'd just stick with full-power 10mm loads.
    40 in a non compensated barrel will kick similarly to the compensated 10mm barrel. Given your exact needs, if I was going to go with 10mm, I would carry Buffalo Bore 10mm which is among the best anywhere, and shoot .40. I have several friends who do exactly this. They reload actually, but like the free .40 cases they can scrounge.

    Also note that plus P or plus P plus ammo in 9mm is nothing to sneeze at. 1400 or more FPS with a 125 grain bonded HP will keep up with standard pressure 45 ACP just fine. I wouldn't want to carry either, especially for dangerous animals, but for concealed carry, 9mm's which can take full power rounds are a formidable option.

    And by the way, Ace's is definitely still in business.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-24-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I'd highly recommend not shooting the black bear. For one thing it may be protected. For another - what are you going to do with the corpse?

    If you miss a vital area, you could be in for a surprise.

    Anyway, if you do shoot one, be sure and drag it indoors to take care of the Castle Doctrine, and the Right to Arm Bears.

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    Lol. No, I have no desire to or intent to shoot one, unless I just cannot avoid it at all.
    Problem is, if I encounter one when out and about on my lands, there is no where/way to get away from one if it comes at me-that would leave me little choice.
    In this case, I was on my porch (albiet w. the door shut to keep my dog from trying to attack it and get itself killed),and only about 30 ft away from it,max. Not sure how that would have played if it hadnt decided it wasnt interested in me..

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    A guy in Denali National Park killed a grizzly with a .45 ACP last year and the year I arrived here, a man in Anchorage killed a grizzly with a .40 S&W. That said, however, I wouldn't count upon either to do the job if I had any choice. If you're determined to stick with a semi-auto, I'd go with a 10mm which should be adequate for anything but large grizzlies. If you're open to a revolver, then the Smith and Wesson 629 in .44 magnum would be (is) my choice. If I know I'm going to be mostly out in the woods, I prefer a .500 magnum but if I'm going to mix up my travel between town and wilderness, I carry a .44 magnum and two different types of rounds. A .44 special +P hollow point or Keith-type semiwadcutter is very adequate for defense from humans while the Buffalo Bore 320 grain hard-cast lead .44 magnum heavy load is typically sufficient for bears. My 629 is MagnaPorted which helps with recoil. The bear loads are still plenty brisk but the .44 specials are pretty mild.
    Last edited by Cavalryman; 04-24-2011 at 05:30 PM.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    I'm not sure of your location but many times black bears are not a danger. In the southern states with the smaller animals a 45 is more than adequate. If you are looking for a caliber to do double duty as open carry self defense gun for 2 as well as 4 legged threats I have to go with the 10mm in semi auto.

    In revolvers the whole spectrum opens up, 454 casull with 45 long colt ammo for use when away from home, full power 454 loads when home and worried about the bear, 44 mag with the option of 44 special ammo for urban expeditions. There are also options with the 41 mag and 357 mag.

    I wouldn't worry about the 45 not getting the job done on a black bear where I live in Virginia Beach if I needed to use it to defend myself, if I were actively pursuing one I would bring my 44 mag.
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    A full size 1911 would drop a black bear no problem. However if I were in that situation I would have grabbed the shotgun with slugs next to the door and went back out to get dinner. I hear bear is yummy

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    Ya, thinking back on it a couple days after the encounter, he prolly wasnt as huge as he seemed at o 'dark thirty lol. Porbably not all that much larger than a person...so .45 would probably suffice..But...may still consider a .44 for such things for around the house, just in case..

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    A full size 1911 would drop a black bear no problem. However if I were in that situation I would have grabbed the shotgun with slugs next to the door and went back out to get dinner. I hear bear is yummy
    I've had it done like pulled pork bbq, and as a roast cooked with onions and potatoes, it was pretty good both ways.
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    One of my ancestors (I think it was my papaws uncle) once killed a black bear with a .410, he was out squirrel hunting and stumbled onto a it. He shot it in the head twice at close range and laid it down, it took two more to kill it.

    That being said I would use a rifle or a .500 s&w. If you have to roll the dice for your life then you want to have them loaded. Im sure a .45 would do the job, but you want something as efficient as possible when your life is in a bear's jaw.

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    Well, a .44 perhaps, but a .500 may be a bit overkill. In terms of the expense of an arm I''d likely only use for such an occasion. Not to mention the potential need for a quick follow-up shot, if the 1st misses or doenst hit something vital.
    Having a bear of any size coming at me from 30ft or less- away, and trying to bring the muzzle of a .500 back down on target....not an attractive thought..

    And ya, I've tried a .500 at the range. The blast/recoil of that thing nearly took my arm out of socket,sent my earmuffs and goggles flying downrange, and ignited the target on fire.. a Weee bit much for anything short of stopping run-away garbage trucks, I think..

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well, a .44 perhaps, but a .500 may be a bit overkill. In terms of the expense of an arm I''d likely only use for such an occasion. Not to mention the potential need for a quick follow-up shot, if the 1st misses or doenst hit something vital.
    Having a bear of any size coming at me from 30ft or less- away, and trying to bring the muzzle of a .500 back down on target....not an attractive thought..

    And ya, I've tried a .500 at the range. The blast/recoil of that thing nearly took my arm out of socket,sent my earmuffs and goggles flying downrange, and ignited the target on fire.. a Weee bit much for anything short of stopping run-away garbage trucks, I think..
    Yea, but if your aim was correct you won't have to worry about it stopping short of the organs. It'll carry them out the back and lay them in a neat pill all over the forest.

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    lol,along Im sure, with about a dozen squirrels and perhaps even a buck or two..

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well, a .44 perhaps, but a .500 may be a bit overkill. In terms of the expense of an arm I''d likely only use for such an occasion. Not to mention the potential need for a quick follow-up shot, if the 1st misses or doenst hit something vital.
    Having a bear of any size coming at me from 30ft or less- away, and trying to bring the muzzle of a .500 back down on target....not an attractive thought..

    And ya, I've tried a .500 at the range. The blast/recoil of that thing nearly took my arm out of socket,sent my earmuffs and goggles flying downrange, and ignited the target on fire.. a Weee bit much for anything short of stopping run-away garbage trucks, I think..
    I don't think people in most parts of the country would get much use out of a .500, but I share the fishing streams with very large grizzlies. As for the difficulty of using the .500...I don't know how so many people have concluded that it kills on both ends. Using ordinary good shooting technique, I haven't found it particularly hard to handle. The muzzle brake is quite effective in reducing felt recoil. In fact, I find the .500 with 500 grain bullets to be less punishing than the .44 with 320 grain loads. A little 90 lb nurse I used to work with carried and shot one regularly. If the .500 is too much gun for you, you should work on your technique.

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    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Yea, but if your aim was correct you won't have to worry about it stopping short of the organs. It'll carry them out the back and lay them in a neat pill all over the forest.
    There's no such thing as too much gun for a grizzly encounter!

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavalryman View Post
    There's no such thing as too much gun for a grizzly encounter!
    I like the old joke,

    "The park ranger was explaining bear encounters to the newly arrived tourists and that they should carry pepper spray and wear bells to avoid startling the bears. He explained that black bear scat was brown and smelled like berries when one of the tourists asked what grizzly bear scat looked like. The park ranger responded that it was blacker smelled like pepper and had little bells in it! :-)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    If you want to stay with a Semi Auto:

    The 460 Rowland kit is only a viable option if you have an extermely high quality Fullsized steel 1911.
    http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm
    The big disadvantage is you can't fire standard velocity ammo out of this firearm with the conversion kit installed.

    You can shoot 45 SUPER out of some stock 45 acp+P pistols such as the Glock 21, HK USP or the full sized all steel 1911, you will batter your pistol if you do not have them modified to handle the extra pressure and slide velocity of the 45 Super.

    10mm offers more rounds (10rds in 1911 or 16+ in a Glock), no mods needed to shoot light or heavy loads, however a fully supported, 6"barrel really allows this caliber to shine.
    Anything other than Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Elite Ammo, Swamp Fox, BVAC (remanufactered) , Win SilverTips or Hornady(200gr) is 10mm, and these aren't what one can usually find on Gunstore/Walmart shelves.


    Another option is Coonan's .357mag (1911 variant).
    www.coonaninc.com/index.php/cPath,5
    The 5" barrel generates higher velocities than one can expect from a 4-6" barreled revolver, especially with 125/158gr loads.
    The best thing about this firearm is it is basically a 1911, no mods needed to fire full house .357mag (which can generate >750 ft lbs of energy).
    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...duct_list&c=20
    Also, run of the mill .357 mag ammo can be readily found almost anywhere to include Walmart and with a lighter spring you can shoot hot/+p .38spl.



    I also have several Black bears that visit my backyard almost daliy (especailly when wild berries are growing), most scare at the sight/bark of the dog or a loud shout.
    I choose .357mag and 10mm.



    If you're going to switch to a revolver single or double action there are lots of options

    .357 mag
    I forgot 10mm/40/38-40
    .41 mag
    .45 Long Colt
    .44 mag
    .454 Casull
    .460 SW
    .480 Ruger
    .500 SW

    and lots of big bore wildcat calibers

    Good luck let us know aht you get.
    Last edited by Marco; 05-02-2011 at 06:29 PM. Reason: i forgot

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    Get a G20 10mm.....Full Power 200 gr loads should be plenty for bear.
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