Madison Gun Show

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

When I worked the table at the Franklin gun show, we handed out WCI business cards with Auric, Hubert and Nik's name on them I believe. Neither of them were at the show.

Click to expand...

IIRC, the cards were from Hubert (VP?) and Auric (Sec.or Treas.?). Why put business cards out on a business table, for the people who are NOT present and NOT speaking?

I'm not asking for a debate, or for people's pro LEO vs. anti-LEO opinions.

I'm simply asking about why the anti-LEO viewpoint was all I heard, AND if has to do with that anti- viewpoint being a matter of the mission statement, agenda, or politics?


Plankton: I have been to the website, I know which orgs I am a member of, and the shirts they were selling are the same as what I bought with my membership.


Folks, you can certainly express your opinions and stories all you want to, on a personal level.

HOWEVER, when you have taken my membership money to help pay for a table at a gun show, and all I heard from these two guys was LEO bashing, guess what? You're done receiving my family's money and the shirt becomes a garage rag.

It appears you are trolling for LEO trouble per OC issues in public, and using my membership monies for lawsuits, while further endangering the CC issue AND perhaps giving ammunition to get rid of open carry?

smithman said:

This bears repeating. Can anybody disagree with this statement? I would like to add that if they do initiate force against an otherwise law abiding person, they are no different than a criminal IMO.

Click to expand...

Sure, but what I heard at the gun show from these guys was on the verge of organizing a conspiracy against LEOs, and I'd testify to it in court.

One of the pother vendors said he saw them walk in that morning with their guns already in holsters, under a coat. (ILLEGAL concealed carry) Now, if you feel a need to push a cop's law knowledge pertaining to concealed carry, excellent! Darwin is waiting for your case.

Sheepdog,
Don't forget, you were in MADison, the home of progressive liberals and anti-gun sentiment and also where five of our members got jacked up by 5.0 That may have had a lot to do with the topic of conversation. I have had no bad experiences ever with LEO's but I understand and am much more educated about my rights since joining here. I actually asked the same questions upon joining at first, but came to realize it's only a few extreme opinions that were voicing themselves. I respect their opinions but wouldn't necessarily follow their advice. I hope you will reconsider your position about the matter. We all have to stick together these days.

Not t add fuel to the fire but I just saw this- http://www.lvrj.com/news/exclusive-...-on-tape-120509439.html?viewAllComments=y&c=y I guess having the name "Crooks" is enough to get your ass beat-lol.

As an organization, Wisconsin Carry supports GOOD law enforcement. We abhor when people's civil rights are violated by bad law enforcement.

We go out of our way to recognize GOOD law enforcement:

See:

"A Tale of Two Cities"

http://www.youtube.com/wisconsincarry#p/a/u/1/LQ8795iZk-0

I cannot speak to what conversation you overheard, I wasn't there.

Unfortunately, over the past couple of years, the most egregious violations of people's rights came at the hands of law enforcement. Wisconsin Carry took action against that.

Do we detest bad law enforcement. YES. Its one thing for people's rights to be violated by another private individual. Its even more disturbing for people's rights to be violated by people who wield the authority of government who are suppose to be PROTECTING rights not violating them.

Will we speak passionately about our disgust with bad law enforcement. Yes.

Does Wisconsin Carry believe that the way to address bad law enforcement is to pander to those who violate rights? No.

Again, I wasn't there, I didn't hear the conversation. If you overheard a conversation in passing, perhaps you didn't hear it in its full context.

That said, I can ASSURE you there is nothing Wisconsin Carry supports more than GOOD law enforcement.

IF a WCI officer/board member was speaking negatively about GOOD law enforcement, TRUST ME, it won't happen again.

If you are offended because we speak out against bad law enforcement, you will likely continue to be offended in the future.

As far as our members, we do not tell them what to think or how to think. Our members speak for themselves.

If you ever find an example where we use our funds to file lawsuits against "good" law enforcement please bring it to my attention.

Nik Clark
Chairman/President - Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

I see a few interesting items about the op that may account for some things or may not.

Screen name seems to indicate LEO affiliation (bias?)

His sigline bashing conservative businessmen and contributors to the GOP. (why put it there on a gun forum where many are conservatives?)

I am not anti-LEO I am anti-infringement of my rights. I have a degree in criminal justice and have had many current and former LEO as instructors. I know enough to know that there are some who will push right to the edge of the grey area (and beyond) because they can. How is it when a citizen uses the legal system to protect himself from his rights being trampled he is the bad guy?

sheepdog251 said:

One of the pother vendors said he saw them walk in that morning with their guns already in holsters, under a coat. (ILLEGAL concealed carry) Now, if you feel a need to push a cop's law knowledge pertaining to concealed carry, excellent! Darwin is waiting for your case.

Click to expand...

Pretty big accusations based on hearsay.

Looks like someone left the Troll shield down again.

Did someone say Troll?

No sudden movements.

I heard the forest elves talking earlier. Apparently that Troll is not happy to see us. That's actually a back-up cudgel holstered in his loin cloth.

Click on this guys sig line and you get sent to a Cali based liberal org bashing Scott Walker and GOP contributors.

OP...You Fail. Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

HandyHamlet said:

No sudden movements.

I heard the forest elves talking earlier. Apparently that Troll is not happy to see us. That's actually a back-up cudgel holstered in his loin cloth.

Click to expand...

An illegally concealed weapon? Shame on him.

I know. He even named it. "Leo basher".





The horror. The horror.

Absolutely,
and AS one of your members who heard nothing but LEO bashing from the booth at the gun show, it was pretty disgusting. You can white-wash it anyway you would like to try: out of context, bad cops, MADison, etc.. endless LEO-bashing has nothing to do with our Open Carry rights!

I won't have to tell you about filing a lawsuit against ANY cops or PDs! EVER!. The conversations I heard were inciting conspiracy against LEOs, by elected officers in the club. You can white-wash all you want about opinions, stories, that make your claim, but what was being spread as your gospel was anti-cop hatred. Period.

So, because Scott Walker and Ron Johnson haven't toed the Tea Party line and we still don't have a CC law yet, your enemy is with the cops?

I can imagine what it is the LEO community thinks of us as a whole: pretty retarded.


Mr. Clark, I believe I will see you in Court.



"Sheepdog251" is in reference to our breeding/training/raising sheepdogs. Me being a student means I am in College. ( I guess you need a college degree to read it, other than seeing a liberal/conspiracy/california

Wisconsin Carry said:

As far as our members, we do not tell them what to think or how to think. Our members speak for themselves.

If you ever find an example where we use our funds to file lawsuits against "good" law enforcement please bring it to my attention.

Nik Clark
Chairman/President - Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

Click to expand...

Always entertaining to see the latest anti-gun troll's attempt to stir up something.

I highly doubt that "Mr. Clark" is worried about seeing you in court.

sheepdog251 said:

So, I went to the Madison fun show this weekend and walked by the WI Open Carry .org table a few times but what I heard was a lot of anti-Law Enforcement talk per OCing: cops are stupid, we sue them for their pensions and salary, etc., etc.. I did not hear any discussion on: How we can keep OC on the books. How can we promote the CCP legislation we want. Here's where/when we are meeting to work on these issues.
So, I had a few questions stir up as I drove home: who made an anti-LEO platform our agenda? How does an anti-LEO agenda promote Open Carry for us? Why aren't we better educating officers about 2nd rights, rather than trying to slander them into the ground?

I didn't join WI OC to make enemies with the cops, and I want to know who decided that they are our enemies and to use gun shows as the platform for saying so?

Happy Easter!

Click to expand...

Sir:

Let me start by wishing you a Happy Easter as well. I was at the gun show and at the WCI table on both Friday and Saturday (the one with the shorter hair). I will try to answer your concerns as distinctly as possible.

1. I didn't join Wisconsin Carry, Inc. to make enemies with the cops either. It is not now, nor has is ever been, the mission of WCI to "make enemies" with law enforcement. WCI is NOT an anti-police, or anti-government organization. We strongly encourage every individual to know and follow the current carry laws in the state of WI.

2. I have repeatedly stated that I believe 99% of the law enforcement officers in WI are good officers. I repeat, I believe 99% ARE GOOD OFFICERS and I personally 100% support the good law enforcement officers.

3. What are we doing to work toward "Constitutional Carry" for WI? We encouraged ALL our members to attend a "legislator" meet/greet day in Madison on April 15. The president of WCI was there and gave a presentation on "Constitutional Carry" for WI. We had a "legislative agenda" (blaze orange, double sided) at the table, we are distributing them across the state, and we are/were continually asking EVERYONE to contact their legislators and encourage them to take action to MOVE "Constitutional Carry" forward as quickly as possible. We continue to update our membership via email whenever something happens, or when there is information that we believe will be of interest to our members.

4. When at the gun show(s), we are usually attempting to get additional members. Many people ask, "Why should I join?" or "Where does the money go?" To answer those questions, we do discuss the Racine, and Brookfield cases. The general synopsis of what happened, and the why/how we believe the officers who responded are in the 1% who violated the rights of the individuals involved. We also disclose (what is public knowledge) the amounts of the judgments against Racine and Brookfield. We point out that most municipalities in the state "GET" Open Carry is legal and will NOT harass you. Additionally, we discuss the "Madison-5" incident and inform those who ask, that everything is pending in the courts and that we could always use their/your help with a donation to the legal fund. We also inform them of the anti-rights position of the Madison Chief of police, Mayor, and those city alder-persons who told us to take our silly exercise of our rights somewhere else. I do not believe this to be an anti law enforcement or anti government position, rather an anti BAD law enforcement position. We also have the "Right-to-carry" pamphlets available for any who would like to learn more. I do not believe stating the facts to be an anti-law enforcement position.

5. When a law enforcement officer, violates the constitutional rights of the citizens, the only legal recourse is a civil suit. Suing those municipalities/officers who violate the rights of others does NOT make WCI an anti-anything organization, rather it defines WCI as an organization that will take action, when appropriate, to defend the rights of those who choose to exercise there rights. I know I speak for the entire board and executive committee when I say we would LOVE it if we NEVER needed to file another law suit.


6. I personally encouraged several people to attend and speak at the upcoming hearing on April 27, at 1:30 regarding the DNR and "earn-a-buck." The purpose of attending would not necessarily be to speak for or against the bill, but rather to ask the distinguished members of the committee why "earn-a-buck" should take precedent over our right to self defense.

7. "Open Carry" being a legal means to carry for "security, defense" has been argued by both a Democrat and Republican AG, and even the most liberal of the State Supreme Court justices has acknowledged the legality of "Open Carry." I do not believe "Open Carry" is in any danger of being gotten "rid of." In addition, "Open Carry" does nothing to "endanger" constitutional carry. Instead, it helps ensure that we, those who carry, have the ability to defend ourselves should need arise and it helps remind the public that it is the ONLY means for exercising the right (reminds them concealed isn't legal).


8. I do NOT "troll" for LEO trouble. Rather, I carry as I go about my regular, normal, daily life. I have had two instances where an ordinary person, who didn't know OC was legal, called the police. In both those instances, the police were extreme professional and I believe it was an educational and positive experience for both me and the officers/departments involved. There was no violation of rights, and no action taken by WCI in either of the instances I was personally involved in. I would prefer to go through my day and NOT have interaction with law enforcement but, if I do have interaction with law enforcement, I would prefer it be along the lines of my experiences instead of those like Racine, Brookfield, and Madison.

9. To specifically address the accusation of "illegal concealed carry." Auric ENTERED through the front/main entrance both days. He was checked by the door security both days, and he did NOT carry concealed. I entered via the back door both days, as did many other vendors. I had parked my van close by. My holster was completely empty, and I did not place a firearm into it until at the table. Was my coat over the holster? Absolutely YES. Was the holster empty? Absolutely YES. Could other vendors have mistakenly assumed the firearm was in the holster? I don't know what others assume, only what they say about assuming. I follow the law to-the-letter when it comes to carrying and do NOT carry concealed because as you stated, that would be a violation of the law.

I will end by saying I apologizing if you got the wrong idea from the facts provided and certainly would hope that you, or any other member, would have (as Nik suggested) brought this to our attention at the time. I agree with Nik 100%, if you believe that any of the WCI executives or BOD is doing a disservice to the organization, please bring it to our immediate attention so we can address it rather than banter about on a forum. I can and DID give multiple examples of good law enforcement at the gun show. I talked about the La Crosse Police Department and how other municipalities like Portage (city, not county) were bringing their enforcement in-line with that of La Crosse. Also, for the record, there were current, active, law enforcement officers at some of the tables next to the WCI table. I did not hear any disparaging remarks from them about the facts provided or the manner in which those facts were provided. I am more than willing to discuss this further, my contact information is provided below, you or any other member can feel free to contact me directly any time. I may not always be able to respond immediately during the working hours of (8-5) but be assured I will respond. Looking forward to hearing from you directly....

"Sheepdog" ... Where have we heard this name from before? Oh yeah.. Thats right: http://www.ppa-wi.com/?aim=course_preparation

Thats what the OP reminds me of

sheepdog251 said:

"Sheepdog251" is in reference to our breeding/training/raising sheepdogs. Me being a student means I am in College. ( I guess you need a college degree to read it, other than seeing a liberal/conspiracy/california

Click to expand...

That's great junior. I'm glad your parents have seen fit to send you to school, looks like it might take a while for you to get the hang of it. I payed for both of my degrees myself.

If you don't wish to be associated with liberal whack jobs I suggest you change the link in your sig line. Have a nice day.

Wow....I guess someone needs a refund.

All that money spent on an education and still cant distinguish between two different
organizations.

Major Fail

LR Yote

Howdy Oak,
If you're in love with the Koch brothers and their love for corporate facism as they have begun to instill it in Wisconsin, feel free to get your liberal hippy love fest on with the greed campaign-it's America by God! Always question authority, legal or corporate.

Mostly, I love you guys. Unfortunately, you mostly seem to be cop haters who were in the closet. You hate cops because you heard of someone having a bad day in a law enforcement scenario. That's unfortunate, but I figured maybe you could see that LEO would be a great ally in the OC/CC campaign of freedom. That's another no go as the majority want to get personal and be disrespectful.

So, if there was nothing wrong with the LEO bashing going on at the Madison Gun Show and it's not a part of our mission statement or agenda, who are these 2 "volunteers" who were working our table and handing out somebody else's business cards?

oak1971 said:

That's great junior. I'm glad your parents have seen fit to send you to school, looks like it might take a while for you to get the hang of it. I payed for both of my degrees myself.

If you don't wish to be associated with liberal whack jobs I suggest you change the link in your sig line. Have a nice day.

Click to expand...