Madison Gun Show

So, I went to the Madison fun show this weekend and walked by the WI Open Carry .org table a few times but what I heard was a lot of anti-Law Enforcement talk per OCing: cops are stupid, we sue them for their pensions and salary, etc., etc.. I did not hear any discussion on: How we can keep OC on the books. How can we promote the CCP legislation we want. Here's where/when we are meeting to work on these issues.
So, I had a few questions stir up as I drove home: who made an anti-LEO platform our agenda? How does an anti-LEO agenda promote Open Carry for us? Why aren't we better educating officers about 2nd rights, rather than trying to slander them into the ground?

I didn't join WI OC to make enemies with the cops, and I want to know who decided that they are our enemies and to use gun shows as the platform for saying so?

Happy Easter!

How unfortunate. My one experience with a gun show and WC,Inc booth was the exact opposite. protias was a complete professional all day. His knowledge is formidable.

It's a volunteer position so I guess if you don't like what you see... you could volunteer to ensure it doesn't happen again?

I would have the same questions as I also tend to lean towards disagreeing with the "Anti-LEO" mentality of this group. What I do believe is that each individual encounter is different and should be handled based on any number of variables at the time.

I do understand and agree as soon as the encounter starts turns "ugly", that is the time to cop the "LEO is the enemy" attitude. I also believe that greeting and dealing with a polite, smiling, (almost) friendly LEO with a polite, smiling, friendly attitude in return will go a lot farther than the "I know my rights and I'll be damned if your going to get ANY info from me" attitude.

This issue was brought to my attention in my reporting of a (recent) encounter I had with a friendly LEO... by my friendly reaction to the LEO's polite attitude I actually ended up loading and holstering my sidearm in full view of the officer and proceeded into the grocery store with him telling my to have a good day as he drove away.

Granted, most here said they I gave the LEO (WAY) too much info and that it was TOTALLY wrong to let him check my firearm to confirm that it was legally unloaded and cased in my vehicle per WI. law, but hey, I walked away with my pistol and without any future court dates...

Finally, I will say this... I actually considered minimizing to an extreme my contact and participation here and at meets because of this fundamental disagreement in approach, but I realized that "to each his own" and why should I exclude myself from a cause I strongly believe in (Open Carry) just because I do not totally agree with someone else's views. As long as I am offered the ability to choose for myself how I handle any LEO encounters, am I not going anywhere...

Outdoorsman

PS: As stated, I too am very interested in responses to the OP questions...

I too walked past the booth a couple times. Bought a shirt.

I didn't hear anything negative when I was there...

HandyHamlet said:

How unfortunate. My one experience with a gun show and WC,Inc booth was the exact opposite. protias was a complete professional all day. His knowledge is formidable.

It's a volunteer position so I guess if you don't like what you see... you could volunteer to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Click to expand...

I think it is more than just a couple of volunteer's at a gun show... it IS the attitude of the majority of this group. In fact, protias was "on the side" of, that I did not handle my LEO encounter "right" and that "maybe next time I wiould do better"....and not give into the Leo's requests...

Just sayin...

Outdoorsman1

Edited to add: I just wanted to make it clear that my feelings on this question is not "Wisconsin" specific... I spend some time on the "Whats New" national section and the LEO is the enemy seems to be a nation wide platform.... maybe it comes from bad experiances or from being just that passonate about "legal" rights... I do not know....

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?89560-DON-T-TALK-TO-THE-POLICE-a-speech-I-m-doing

Prone Em Flynn, when he essentially told the Attorney General to go to h## was the catalyst for much of the hard feelings toward LEOs on this board. Seeing former heads of the police chiefs union, err "professional association" getting an award from WAVE, appearing with them at anti-firearm rallies and the organization always testifying in favor of anti-firearm legislation doesn't help either.

A lot this then flows downhill to the guy or gal on the street.

Having five cop cars come flying into a busy parking lot and then proning you out in said parking lot as their "tactical response" to your doing something perfectly legal may change your feelings and opinions. Most people's opinions weren't formed out of the blue. They were formed in response to the way they have been treated by the law enforcement community. Your opinion is favorable because you were treated decently. Most other people not so much. As said before it doesn't help that chiefs are standing hand in hand with the antis. That aspect really is odd because many law enforcement agencies in other states are very PRO carry and realize that they CAN'T be there to save people. Not to mention how many of those same officers love to carry concealed themselves yet have the nerve to try to stop anyone else from being able to do it?

Outdoorsman1 said:

I think it is more than just a couple of volunteers at a gun show... it IS the attitude of the majority of this group.
I spend some time on the "Whats New" national section and the LEO is the enemy seems to be a nation wide platform...

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Perhaps it's a widespread attitude because it's a widespread problem.
I've said it elsewhere here on OCDO -
- there's one cop I know & trust,
- one whose forthrightness I respect (but don't know well enough to trust),
- many whom I think are decent people (including some members here),
- and the vast majority whom I know nothing about, and will assume they are neutral/ignorant of the law & my rights until they prove themselves to be either supportive or malicious. I will be polite as long as they are, but I won't consent to waiving my rights.
Given what various members of law enforcement have done to me, both last July and this March, I think that's an incredibly tolerant attitude.

As for the OP questions, I would hope that info at a display would be about evenly split between "join us, here's how" and "here's what we're doing and how you can help keep your rights".
I dislike crowds & loud events, so have avoided volunteering, but I could do a couple hours some weekend, specifically to increase the "how to help" information dissemination. Heck, I'll make up a sheet to hand out showing how to find who your legislators are & their contact information.

Both guys had business cards out on the table, both were identified as elected officers in some fashion; V.P. and Secretary if I remember correctly. Perhaps they were the cards of somebody else?


Hearing something positive vs. something negative is a matter of perspective; if you hate cops you were hearing a "positive" message at the Madison gun show.

I'd like to know when the anti-LEO message became part of the mission statement, or part of the platform and/or agenda, and who decided that?

I joined and bought a shirt last year, but anti-LEO was not the message then, but that's all I heard in the 4-5 loops I made around the show.

kawisixer01 said:

That aspect really is odd because many law enforcement agencies in other states are very PRO carry and realize that they CAN'T be there to save people. Not to mention how many of those same officers love to carry concealed themselves yet have the nerve to try to stop anyone else from being able to do it?

Click to expand...

I remember a post on here a month or two ago about a similar topic and we basically figured out the reason why police chiefs are anti-gun is because they are appointed by mayors, while sheriffs are pro-gun because they are elected by the people.

It doesn't help the LEO crowd much when videos like this come out on a nearly daily basis.
"http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=605_1303583826"

sheepdog251 said:

Both guys had business cards out on the table, both were identified as elected officers in some fashion; V.P. and Secretary if I remember correctly. Perhaps they were the cards of somebody else?


Hearing something positive vs. something negative is a matter of perspective; if you hate cops you were hearing a "positive" message at the Madison gun show.

I'd like to know when the anti-LEO message became part of the mission statement, or part of the platform and/or agenda, and who decided that?

I joined and bought a shirt last year, but anti-LEO was not the message then, but that's all I heard in the 4-5 loops I made around the show.

Click to expand...

To clear it up; I don't have a problem with police officers. I have a problem with people who completely overstep their boundaries, regardless of their profession. Have I ever been been shook down by the fuzz while open carrying? Nope, but I'm still wary about them because I know that pretty much every district in every county in this state has had to be retrained on the concept that law-abiding citizens can openly carry a firearm. They'll hark and cry about how it makes their job more dangerous, but that's just unfounded nonsense. They flap their arms and puff out their chests and make an ordeal out of something that should just be a day-to-day affair. Then they get mad when people tell them they are, in fact, doing their job wrong, all the while trampling on the rights of the people they were sworn to protect.

I respect what police actually do: They create an illusion of security and a deterrence effect, and they clean up the mess after the fact. Then they work on finding the mess maker. But no police officer has ever directly protected me, and I'm willing to wager that there are very few people on this board who they have. I don't have a cop walking laps around my house at night and escorting me around everywhere I go. If I did, I wouldn't need to carry a gun. But police officers aren't meant to be body guards, but they have the audacity to tell us not to protect ourselves?

No, thank you. I don't much care for people who overstep their boundaries.

WCI does not have an anti-LEO mentality. It has an anti-abuse of authority mentality and and anti-ignorance mentality. Police who behave in a professional manner, and who recognize and stay withing the scope of their authority, are absolutely fine with WCI. This includes the great majority of police officers. It is hardly fair to say there is an anti-LEO mentality when it applies to the actions of a tiny portion of the profession. If someone spoke out against therapists who abuse patients, would it it be fair to call that an "anti-therapist mentality?" If we spoke out against wife beaters, would that be an "anti-male" or "anti-marriage" mentality? I don't think so!

WCI has filed lawsuits only in response to the rare occasions when certain individual police, or police agencies, have clearly threatened or infringed rights. When one looks at the results in the courts and at the number of times prosecutors have prudently declined to prosecute weak charges, WCI has an excellent track record of getting involved only when it is on firm legal ground and defending important rights and principles.

As one of the many who has had lots of terrible experiences with law enforcement, I can say that this is a well founded belief. But I can also say that not all cops are the bad guys. This forum is generally a place for people with differing opinions, but we are not here to force those opinions on others. If we choose to discuss our beliefs in public, that should not be held against any one of us (and especially not the majority of us).

I personally have had differing opinions that has caused heated discussions with people here on the forum as well as out in public. But those people still remain good friends of mine and I respect them for that.

When people make statements like those that aggravated you, you need to understand that it is a personal belief, not a standard by which all others are measured. To make a statement that does not start with "Wisconsin Carry Inc. Believes" (or something to that effect) it should not be considered anything but personal opinion.

It is important to inject personal feelings into the things you do, because it helps others understand that you are passionate about what you say. And while it is all of our rights to disagree with what someone believes, it is not up to us to judge everyone based on what some believe.

sheepdog251 said:

Both guys had business cards out on the table, both were identified as elected officers in some fashion; V.P. and Secretary if I remember correctly. Perhaps they were the cards of somebody else?


Hearing something positive vs. something negative is a matter of perspective; if you hate cops you were hearing a "positive" message at the Madison gun show.

I'd like to know when the anti-LEO message became part of the mission statement, or part of the platform and/or agenda, and who decided that?

I joined and bought a shirt last year, but anti-LEO was not the message then, but that's all I heard in the 4-5 loops I made around the show.

Click to expand...

When I worked the table at the Franklin gun show, we handed out WCI business cards with Auric, Hubert and Nik's name on them I believe. Neither of them were at the show.

As one who has been on the receiving end of harassment from 6 LEOs (3 in a restaurant, and then 3 at my home the same day after 10 PM, several hours later from the first interaction), I am not anti-LEO. I am for them doing the job they've been hired to do. I am against abuse of their authority and harassing law abiding people (that includes people here on VISA, if they aren't doing anything illegal, leave them be).

What?

sheepdog251 said:

So, I went to the Madison fun show this weekend and walked by the WI Open Carry .org table a few times but what I heard was a lot of anti-Law Enforcement talk per OCing: cops are stupid, we sue them for their pensions and salary, etc., etc.. I did not hear any discussion on: How we can keep OC on the books. How can we promote the CCP legislation we want. Here's where/when we are meeting to work on these issues.
So, I had a few questions stir up as I drove home: who made an anti-LEO platform our agenda? How does an anti-LEO agenda promote Open Carry for us? Why aren't we better educating officers about 2nd rights, rather than trying to slander them into the ground?

I didn't join WI OC to make enemies with the cops, and I want to know who decided that they are our enemies and to use gun shows as the platform for saying so?

Happy Easter!

Click to expand...

wisconsincarry.org is NOT wisconsinOPENcarry.org. Have you even been to the website? Are you even sure what organization you belong to? Members of wisconsin carry have been VERY active concerning CC (Constitutional Carry), and continue to contact legislators concerning pending changes in current Wisconsin gun laws. Please go to the website and educate yourself. Bandwidth is a terrible thing to waste.

protias said:

As one who has been on the receiving end of harassment from 6 LEOs (3 in a restaurant, and then 3 at my home the same day after 10 PM, several hours later from the first interaction), I am not anti-LEO. I am for them doing the job they've been hired to do. I am against abuse of their authority and harassing law abiding people (that includes people here on VISA, if they aren't doing anything illegal, leave them be).

Click to expand...

i'm not anti-leo, i am just not for them, too many times over my life they have victimized me, to the point where i carry a gun to protect myself from the criminals, AND everybody.

There was...(and I guess there still is a little) a period in time
where I had thoughts of becoming a LEO.

I have a lot of respect for police officers....believe it or not.

What I cant stand,and wont tolerate from ANY person, badge holder or not
off duty or on duty is the mentality that they are better than me.

I have had pleasant and some not so pleasant exchanges OC'in and while unarmed also.
The unpleasant exchanges tend to be more easily remembered than the pleasant ones,but the pleasant ones do without a doubt outnumber the unpleasant ones.

Armed or unarmed I am entitled to some very simple things.

I am a human being, born with certain Rights our Founding Fathers deemed God Given and recorded by Our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

Fail to recognize those entitlements and we have a problem.

LR Yote

protias said:

I am not anti-LEO. I am for them doing the job they've been hired to do. I am against abuse of their authority and harassing law abiding people.

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This bears repeating. Can anybody disagree with this statement? I would like to add that if they do initiate force against an otherwise law abiding person, they are no different than a criminal IMO.