Question on unauthorized trespassing on residential property

Aaron1124 · Apr 24, 2011

What would be considered unlawful trespassing on residential property? Considering many people conducting business approach the doorstep of residential houses (door to door salesmen, missionary preachers, etc) and aren't unlawfully trespassing.

Where is the line that a person would have to cross, in order to be considered unlawful trespassing? Continuing to enter, despite posted signs that specifically say "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting"? Entering a gated yard? Entering a locked gated yard?

What do the general trespassing laws state?

I'll post a few scenarios, and I'd like to hear your opinion as to what would be considered trespassing.

1) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced residential home, and proceed to knock on the door. The home owner doesn't want solicitors, and doesn't welcome guests, but there are no posted signs. The salesmen are on private property.

2) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen proceed to the door, regardless of what the signs read.

3) Two salesmen walk up to a fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen ignore the signs, and proceed to open the gate, and knock on the home owners door.

p85 · Apr 24, 2011

all 3 senarios are similar, with subtle differences. in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, the first would not be trespassing until you verbally requested that they leave the property and they refused.
the second two could be construed as trespassing and I don't think you would have to do anything but call the law to have them removed.
none of the senarios warrent the use of deadly force.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 24, 2011

Aaron I posted a cite before Washington state court case in our forum. That open sidewalk and driveway to your front door is an implied invitation.

Personally I feel if you gate/fence off with a trespassing sign that is then trespassing, along with if you tell someone I don't want you on my property. But I heard of cases and haven't done the research personally so this is just second hand that, an unlocked gate easily accessible to the public is not considered trespassing.

I also have a problem with it being posted that it still isn't trespassing because many associations have ccr's against fences and gates.

eye95 · Apr 24, 2011

Aaron1124 said:
What would be considered unlawful trespassing on residential property? Considering many people conducting business approach the doorstep of residential houses (door to door salesmen, missionary preachers, etc) and aren't unlawfully trespassing.

Where is the line that a person would have to cross, in order to be considered unlawful trespassing? Continuing to enter, despite posted signs that specifically say "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting"? Entering a gated yard? Entering a locked gated yard?

What do the general trespassing laws state?

I'll post a few scenarios, and I'd like to hear your opinion as to what would be considered trespassing.

1) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced residential home, and proceed to knock on the door. The home owner doesn't want solicitors, and doesn't welcome guests, but there are no posted signs. The salesmen are on private property.

2) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen proceed to the door, regardless of what the signs read.

3) Two salesmen walk up to a fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen ignore the signs, and proceed to open the gate, and knock on the home owners door.

It depends on the State. In Alabama, the first two are, by law, NOT trespassing. The third may be. However, the police likely will not do anything about it until the person has been personally informed to get off the land and not return. The police will file a record of the notification. Returning (or failing to leave) will result in charges.

I can't speak about WA. Also, IANAL, but twice the police have tried (and failed) to trespass me, and I was a census worker who routinely walked onto posted, fenced property, got grief about it once, but still accomplished the purpose of the visit.

Citizen · Apr 24, 2011

"Question on unauthorized trespassing on residential property"

I thought all trespassing was unauthorized. Is there such a thing as authorized trespassing?

END_THE_FED · Apr 25, 2011

Citizen said:
....I thought all trespassing was unauthorized. Is there such a thing as authorized trespassing?

Yes, I think they call it a "Search Warrant" LOL

amlevin · Apr 29, 2011

In the City where I live, unless these people are members of a charity, politicians, Farmers selling produce from their own land, or Cable TV Sales people, they would be in violation of City ordinance in all three scenarios.

It's been illegal to solicit door to door since 1964 with the above exceptions. Believe it or not, the local police actually respond to calls like this when called. All too many of the Door-to-Door solicitors here are "casing" the houses for later break-ins. Several "knock and no answers" are followed by a kicked in front door.

Could be interesting at my house. Family and Friends call on the phone when they are arriving. For them the door gets answered. The rest are ignored. Suffice it to say, the occupants of this house are well armed.

Kivuli · Apr 29, 2011

I'm not a lawyer...This applies to NC...

1) No trespassing has occured until the homeowner tells the solicitors to leave and they refuse to do so.

2) You could charge with second degree trespassing, though I think I'd want refusal to leave after being told before doing so.

3) This is a much more clear second degree trespass charge, but actually charging it will depend on the circumstances. For instance, if they simply leave after no one answers the door or someone tells them to, I think most police probably wouldn't charge.

sudden valley gunner · May 1, 2011

amlevin said:
In the City where I live, unless these people are members of a charity, politicians, Farmers selling produce from their own land, or Cable TV Sales people, they would be in violation of City ordinance in all three scenarios.

It's been illegal to solicit door to door since 1964 with the above exceptions. Believe it or not, the local police actually respond to calls like this when called. All too many of the Door-to-Door solicitors here are "casing" the houses for later break-ins. Several "knock and no answers" are followed by a kicked in front door.

Could be interesting at my house. Family and Friends call on the phone when they are arriving. For them the door gets answered. The rest are ignored. Suffice it to say, the occupants of this house are well armed.

How do they get around the implied invitation rulings of our supreme court or has nobody fought it yet?

Citizen · May 2, 2011

END_THE_FED said:
Yes, I think they call it a "Search Warrant" LOL

LOL!! Too true, too true.

hermannr · May 2, 2011

Interesting on the census comment. Neighbor's wife worked the census for awhile, don't know what happened, but after a few weeks of working the census, she quit? And the no trespassing signs went up around their property...specifically addressed to the census takers. :uhoh:

I know all the census takers around here were told to obey any "no trespass" signs. They did not want anyone hurt.

Up here on this mountain, if you go straight to the front door, you may or may not be met by a shotgun, but I'll give there is a shotgun, big dog, or something similar within reach. Neighbor has a "door bell" (a big bell) about 100 ft from his front door. He takes exception (a pit bull) to anyone coming closer unless invited.

END_THE_FED · May 2, 2011

sudden valley gunner said:
How do they get around the implied invitation rulings of our supreme court or has nobody fought it yet?

I think that the law would remove the "implied invitation", in the same way that clear signage or a gate does.

sudden valley gunner · May 2, 2011

END_THE_FED said:
I think that the law would remove the "implied invitation", in the same way that clear signage or a gate does.

There has been if I remember correctly Washington and 9th circuit decisions that those laws violate free speech. Especially religions, but even 'commercial free speech'. And that an open driveway and sidewalk is an implied invitation.

Although I think they still can require permits for commercial but not religious or political. Unless the homeowner specifically puts a "No Solicitation" sign on his property. The government can't interfere in the exchange of free speech.

An interesting case on the political religious side is Stratton Ohio vs. Jehovah Witnesses.

“It is offensive – not only to the values protected by the First Amendment, but to the very notion of a free society – that in the context of everyday public discourse a citizen must first inform the government of her desire to speak to her neighbors and then obtain a permit to do so.”

Justice John Paul Stevens

eye95 · May 2, 2011

hermannr said:
Interesting on the census comment. Neighbor's wife worked the census for awhile, don't know what happened, but after a few weeks of working the census, she quit? And the no trespassing signs went up around their property...specifically addressed to the census takers. :uhoh:

I know all the census takers around here were told to obey any "no trespass" signs. They did not want anyone hurt.

Up here on this mountain, if you go straight to the front door, you may or may not be met by a shotgun, but I'll give there is a shotgun, big dog, or something similar within reach. Neighbor has a "door bell" (a big bell) about 100 ft from his front door. He takes exception (a pit bull) to anyone coming closer unless invited.

I was a census worker. We were not so instructed, probably due to the lack of legal of legal meaning to such a sign. A fenced and locked property or a verbal git-off-my-propity would cause us to return for another try later. After a number of tries, we'd turn the matter over to a supervisor. However, I guarantee you that we were not deterred. Every household was censused--one way or another.

One property that I was assigned was locked. I returned several times. Eventually, it was unlocked and someone was cutting the grass. I was given a git-off-my-propity, but advised the gentleman that if he answered one question, we'd never return to bother him again. The obvious implication was that we'd keep returning until he relented. He asked what the question was, and I queried, "Does anyone live in that mobile home?" while pointing to a rather nice, and large, RV next to his driveway. He said no, and I left. Generally, we found a way, usually persistence and courtesy, to get the job done.

We had already censused the main house from his mail-in, but we had to check out every place that was found that could serve as a home.

Gunslinger · May 2, 2011

Aaron1124 said:
What would be considered unlawful trespassing on residential property? Considering many people conducting business approach the doorstep of residential houses (door to door salesmen, missionary preachers, etc) and aren't unlawfully trespassing.

Where is the line that a person would have to cross, in order to be considered unlawful trespassing? Continuing to enter, despite posted signs that specifically say "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting"? Entering a gated yard? Entering a locked gated yard?

What do the general trespassing laws state?

I'll post a few scenarios, and I'd like to hear your opinion as to what would be considered trespassing.

1) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced residential home, and proceed to knock on the door. The home owner doesn't want solicitors, and doesn't welcome guests, but there are no posted signs. The salesmen are on private property.

2) Two salesmen walk up to a non-fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen proceed to the door, regardless of what the signs read.

3) Two salesmen walk up to a fenced, residential home, with signs clearly posted in plain view that read "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting". The salesmen ignore the signs, and proceed to open the gate, and knock on the home owners door.

Assuming the signs meet that state's statutes, i.e., some reguire owners name, address, phone number be on the sign and the signs posted every X feet, 1 is ok; 2 and 3 are trespassing against which the owner has the right to use reasonable force to eject them. Fences are irrelevant to NO Trespassing postings legality.

eye95 · May 2, 2011

In the State of Alabama, the statute mentions the usability of a sign to inform folks that they are not invited or licensed to enter in only one circumstance: unimproved, unused land.

Be wary of anonymous Internet legal advice. Laws vary greatly from State to State.

Gunslinger · May 2, 2011

eye95 said:
In the State of Alabama, the statute mentions the usability of a sign to inform folks that they are not invited or licensed to enter in only one circumstance: unimproved, unused land.

Be wary of anonymous Internet legal advice. Laws vary greatly from State to State.

"Assuming the signs meet that state's statutes..."

Wow, an echo in here.

eye95 · May 2, 2011

Gunslinger said:
"Assuming the signs meet that state's statutes[, i.e., some reguire owners name, address, phone number be on the sign and the signs posted every X feet,]..."

Wow, an [amazingly conveniently incomplete] echo in here.

There is no standard for the sign (such as the items in the list you cited), apart from the sign being posted in a conspicuous manner. What I described about the law was the only circumstance under which the sign is even mentioned in the black-letter law.

Moving on except to say, folks, get your legal advice from a lawyer whom you personally have met and personally know, can trust, and can find after the fact. Avoid advice from folks who rely solely on disingenuous parsing to "win" discussions and whose creds consist solely of third parties, about whom you know as little, pointing out that he "has a JD behind his name." That particular descriptor can be applied to probably hundreds of thousands of people whom I would not want to stand with in court!

Gunslinger · May 2, 2011

"Laws vary greatly from state to state." eye.

After I had posted "Assuming the signs meet 'that state's' statutes..." but not an echo, according to him.

Personally, I don't gas whether eye thinks I have a JD, MD, BA or GED. Anyone who chooses can look up my opinion, which is all it is, against case or black letter law. If they can show where I am mistaken, I will be the first to admit it--and have on several occasions. I don't run off saying "moving on" when the tide turns or try to reword someone's salient point to take credit for it. Or engage in continuous circular arguments, facts not in evidence or pure logical fallacy. The forum is for anyone's opinion. You have his unremitting self aggrandizement feebly covered by tu quoque attacks. Res ipsa loquitur. In the past, I have defended eye numerous times. He has now set a new tone. His choice.

Gunslinger · May 2, 2011

eye95 said:
There is no standard for the sign (such as the items in the list you cited), apart from the sign being posted in a conspicuous manner. What I described about the law was the only circumstance under which the sign is even mentioned in the black-letter law.

!

I believe changing my quote is a violation of the rules. You, as the 'law and order' automaton should know better.

Question on unauthorized trespassing on residential property

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