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Thread: Possible loophole for $12 CCW permit?

  1. #1
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    Possible loophole for $12 CCW permit?

    Was just thinking about this today. Say you are a resident of a state that doesn't require a CCW Permit to CCW. Now to be considered a resident of that state all you would need is a valid ID showing residence. Now lets say you move from this state to say another state that requires a permit to CCW but recognizes permits from all other states. Example:

    Pursuant to Colorado law (CRS 18-12-213), the State of Colorado will recognize a valid permit issued in another state IF the permit was issued to a resident of the state issuing the permit, and the permit tee is 21 yrs of age or older, AND the other state recognizes Colorado permits as valid in their state. Hence, a "yes" in the following table also indicates that a valid Colorado permit is recognized in that state, subject to their laws. When traveling with a Colorado permit, it is advisable to contact the state you are visiting to confirm reciprocity and to review that state's firearms laws.

    The state of Colorado no longer recognizes the validity of any permit issued by any state to a nonresident of that state (see C.R.S 18-12-213 amended 2007), specifically they must be a resident of the state that issued the concealed handgun permit and must be in possession of a valid drivers license or identification card issued by that same state.

    Now lets say this is the situation. You have a valid ID from the state of AZ where it is no longer required to posses a CCW PERMIT. The only requirements to conceal carry are to be a resident of this state and 21yo. This would technically make your AZ Drivers Licence or ID card a valid CCW permit showing that you are able to leagally CCW in that state.

    Now I used the law of colorado above for an example. Sounds to me that if you posses an ID showing residence in AZ you can, in theory, legally conceal carry in CO without a "CCW permit". Now all that you need is a friend living in AZ to let you come out and use his house as a mailing address so that you may obtain an AZ ID card (ID cards are available to all Arizona residents, including infants, for $12.) and you just bought yourself the cheapest "CCW PERMIT" ever thought of.
    "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by six"

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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Umm..........NO!

    Using a friends mailing address does not make you a Legal Resident of that state. This would clearly be circuventing gun laws and is clearly illegal. (IANAL)
    -----------------
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    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    All you need to be a legal resident of a state is a state ID card. Think about it this way, when you go to obtain a CCW licence they need a current state ID card, this verifies residency in the state. Residence is easy to prove all it takes is an ID, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to get technical you have to reside in one state for a period of 6 months to be "legally" considered a resident of that state. However, this is something very hard to prove and when a LEO asks for ID, your just going to look like joe blow traveler on vacation.
    "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by six"

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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    All you need to be a legal resident of a state is a state ID card...
    Cite?

    When I changed my residency from NY to TX, the lawyer explained to me that it was a matter of "intent." Did I intend to return to NY, or did I intend to maintain my TX residence after I left TX? (I was in the AF.) My intent was established, per the advice of the lawyer, by living in TX, getting a TXDL, registering to vote and voting in TX, registering my car in TX, applying for the homestead tax exemption in TX, and generally doing all the things that folks living in TX do.

    I think what you are suggesting is FRAUD. IANAL, but I would recommend that folks carefully check out anything posted on this site that looks like legal advice. Taking legal advice from any of us (me included) is a stupid thing to do.

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    Smile I believe that you are correct

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Cite?

    When I changed my residency from NY to TX, the lawyer explained to me that it was a matter of "intent." Did I intend to return to NY, or did I intend to maintain my TX residence after I left TX? (I was in the AF.) My intent was established, per the advice of the lawyer, by living in TX, getting a TXDL, registering to vote and voting in TX, registering my car in TX, applying for the homestead tax exemption in TX, and generally doing all the things that folks living in TX do.

    I think what you are suggesting is FRAUD. IANAL, but I would recommend that folks carefully check out anything posted on this site that looks like legal advice. Taking legal advice from any of us (me included) is a stupid thing to do.
    You can have legal residency in any state that you wish to. If your legal residency becomes a legal issue, a court or jury would look to exactly the sort of things that your attorney mentioned. So, legal residency is mostly a state of mind, with some proof that your intent is real, and not just a subterfuge.

    At least, that is the way that attorneys that I know have explained it to me. My legal advise has the same value that yours does. :-)

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    All you need to be a legal resident of a state is a state ID card. Think about it this way, when you go to obtain a CCW licence they need a current state ID card, this verifies residency in the state. Residence is easy to prove all it takes is an ID, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to get technical you have to reside in one state for a period of 6 months to be "legally" considered a resident of that state. However, this is something very hard to prove and when a LEO asks for ID, your just going to look like joe blow traveler on vacation.
    Exactly, Cite that!

    Legal residency cant be establish simply having a state ID. Im sure that they will "get technical " with you when you are applying for a CHP. Even if you could pull it off, The question is would it hold up in court? If your resideince was challanged and you own no property in that state pay no rent, and only recivie mail at an adress that your friend lives at, I do not think it would hold up in court.

    Tell you what you think you have it figured out chief, why dont you call the AZ Department of Public Saftey - CHP devision and run it by them?
    Thier number is (602) 256-6280

    What you doing is attempting you circumvent the laws, Refer to the rules of this site

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
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    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    Don't get me wrong I'm not "advocating illegal acts" just pointing out that it can in fact be one of those crazy legal loop holes in the books that hasn't been realized yet. It would be more of a possibility for someone in the military to exercise this then a normal civilian.

    For instance I'm currently a resident of California, stationed in Colorado. An active duty member can exercise resident rights in the state they are stationed in by way of orders and mil ID while at the same time being a resident of another state. This opens up all kinds of crazy loop holes such as:

    - Not having to pay state taxes in Colorado or California.

    - Ability to purchase "assault weapons" like a resident of Colorado without a CO ID or DL.

    - Not having to take a weapons safety course for CCW or have a valid CO ID to obtain a CCW permit.

    As crazy as this sounds, it's 100% legal. I guess it's just some of the "perks" for all the ass pain I have to deal with on a daily basis... uhhh I mean serving this wonderful country of ours.
    "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by six"

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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Was just thinking about this today. Say you are a resident of a state that doesn't require a CCW Permit to CCW. Now to be considered a resident of that state all you would need is a valid ID showing residence. Now lets say you move from this state to say another state that requires a permit to CCW but recognizes permits from all other states. Example:

    Pursuant to Colorado law (CRS 18-12-213), the State of Colorado will recognize a valid permit issued in another state IF the permit was issued to a resident of the state issuing the permit, and the permit tee is 21 yrs of age or older, AND the other state recognizes Colorado permits as valid in their state. Hence, a "yes" in the following table also indicates that a valid Colorado permit is recognized in that state, subject to their laws. When traveling with a Colorado permit, it is advisable to contact the state you are visiting to confirm reciprocity and to review that state's firearms laws.

    The state of Colorado no longer recognizes the validity of any permit issued by any state to a nonresident of that state (see C.R.S 18-12-213 amended 2007), specifically they must be a resident of the state that issued the concealed handgun permit and must be in possession of a valid drivers license or identification card issued by that same state.

    Now lets say this is the situation. You have a valid ID from the state of AZ where it is no longer required to posses a CCW PERMIT. The only requirements to conceal carry are to be a resident of this state and 21yo. This would technically make your AZ Drivers Licence or ID card a valid CCW permit showing that you are able to leagally CCW in that state.

    Now I used the law of colorado above for an example. Sounds to me that if you posses an ID showing residence in AZ you can, in theory, legally conceal carry in CO without a "CCW permit". Now all that you need is a friend living in AZ to let you come out and use his house as a mailing address so that you may obtain an AZ ID card (ID cards are available to all Arizona residents, including infants, for $12.) and you just bought yourself the cheapest "CCW PERMIT" ever thought of.
    I would say that you're trying to reach way too far for multiple reasons. I'll just give a couple that I can see without having to even think about it. AZ says anyone can carry CC. The license is not the CCW permit. Also, AZ still issues CCW permits so that AZ residents can CC in other states, so there is the actual CCW permit you are wanting to know about. To even suggest that Constitutional Carry is the same as you wish it to be is just ridiculous in my mind.

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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Don't get me wrong I'm not "advocating illegal acts" just pointing out that it can in fact be one of those crazy legal loop holes in the books that hasn't been realized yet. It would be more of a possibility for someone in the military to exercise this then a normal civilian.

    For instance I'm currently a resident of California, stationed in Colorado. An active duty member can exercise resident rights in the state they are stationed in by way of orders and mil ID while at the same time being a resident of another state. This opens up all kinds of crazy loop holes such as:

    - Not having to pay state taxes in Colorado or California.

    - Ability to purchase "assault weapons" like a resident of Colorado without a CO ID or DL.

    - Not having to take a weapons safety course for CCW or have a valid CO ID to obtain a CCW permit.

    As crazy as this sounds, it's 100% legal. I guess it's just some of the "perks" for all the ass pain I have to deal with on a daily basis... uhhh I mean serving this wonderful country of ours.
    Cite it
    -----------------
    --SCOTT

    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

  10. #10
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    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    Well?

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    When I last talked to base finance (they're the ones who handle residency changes) all they told me was that I needed to have the "intent" to either go there as my primary place while on leave and once I get out of the military. As such I was able to legally change my residency to Alaska even though I didn't even have an address for there and had never been there. When I applied for my Utah CWP I gave my UT DL (as that was where my dad retired and I got my DL from) and they issued me a resident permit even though I was no longer a resident (I wasn't trying to game the system or anything and didn't realize it until after I got the CWP).

    As I'm now in Oklahoma I've since changed my residence to OK and once again the base didn't require any proof of living here. They simply give me a single page that I fill out and that's it. The page (I'll see if I can get a copy of one later) basically just has you put what state you want to change it to and sign. It does have some legal stuff on it about what it takes to change your residence, but it does nothing to verify any of it.

    I would say residency loopholes are most easily exploited by the military, though most people don't know about them and don't actually try to exploit them; they generally just stumble into (through?) them.

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    Never thought of that!

    Quote Originally Posted by mohawk001 View Post
    I would say that you're trying to reach way too far for multiple reasons. I'll just give a couple that I can see without having to even think about it. AZ says anyone can carry CC. The license is not the CCW permit. Also, AZ still issues CCW permits so that AZ residents can CC in other states, so there is the actual CCW permit you are wanting to know about. To even suggest that Constitutional Carry is the same as you wish it to be is just ridiculous in my mind.
    You just answered the question right there, thanks!
    "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by six"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    Cite it
    Ok here it is, it took an ass load of time to find it again but I like proving a point.

    - Not having to pay state taxes in Colorado or California.

    "California Military Personnel Outside California –
    California military members who leave California under PCS
    orders become nonresidents of California for income tax
    purposes when they leave California. All income received or
    earned prior to departure is subject to tax by California. After
    departure, only income from California sources is subject to
    tax by California. Nonresidents are generally not taxed by
    California on income from intangibles, such as dividends
    from stocks or interest from bonds or bank accounts.
    California military members who leave California under a
    TDY assignment continue to be California residents even
    though absent from the state."

    This makes me a non-resident of Colorado being that I am a resident of California. However, when I file taxes in California, I had no income made in the state of California so my tax will always be $0.00.

    -Source http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/misc/1032.pdf


    - Ability to purchase "assault weapons" like a resident of Colorado without a CO ID or DL.

    "Military members on active duty and legal aliens
    have special residency considerations.
    A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a
    resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty
    station is located. FFLs may accept electronic permanent
    change of station (PCS) orders, accompanied by a valid
    military identification card, to establish residency for an
    active duty military member of the Armed Forces."

    -Source http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-15.pdf

    - Not having to take a weapons safety course for CCW or have a valid CO ID to obtain a CCW permit.

    "- A copy of proof of residency. (Colorado Driver’s License, Colorado ID Card or Military ID Card and Duty Orders)

    Demonstrates competence with a handgun by submitting:

    1. evidence of experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service,

    2. evidence that, at the time the application is submitted, the applicant is a certified instructor,

    3. proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Armed Forces within the three years preceding submittal of the application, or

    4. proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Armed Forces that reflects pistol qualifications obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application,"

    -Source http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres...acket2010.pdf?

    You have to love those "or" statements in the law, many people constantly confuse them for "AND".
    "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by six"

  14. #14
    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Ok here it is, it took an ass load of time to find it again but I like proving a point.
    Thanks for backing that up.
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    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

  15. #15
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    To the OP, nope, doesn't work that way.

    That is why Alaska, Arizona and... still have CPL's available if needed when visiting other states.

    As to Military residency...I was in the US Army for 8 years, and most of those years my home of record was Victoria, BC, Canada. I kept my BC drivers license the whole time I was in service.

    After I became a US citizen in 1970 I changed my military HoR to Skagit County, WA. When we got out of the Army we moved to, and have perminently resided in, WA since.

    Changing HoR in the Military is simple and the biggest advantage is income taxes and veteran's benifits. I had a very good buddy that had my address in WA as his HoR until he retired (in Alabama) rather than his folks address...why? His folks lived in MA (lots of income tax) and we lived in WA (no income tax). Why should he pay MA inciome tax when he did not reside there, or ever intend to perminently reside there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Don't get me wrong I'm not "advocating illegal acts" just pointing out that it can in fact be one of those crazy legal loop holes in the books that hasn't been realized yet. It would be more of a possibility for someone in the military to exercise this then a normal civilian.

    For instance I'm currently a resident of California, stationed in Colorado. An active duty member can exercise resident rights in the state they are stationed in by way of orders and mil ID while at the same time being a resident of another state. This opens up all kinds of crazy loop holes such as:

    - Not having to pay state taxes in Colorado or California.

    - Ability to purchase "assault weapons" like a resident of Colorado without a CO ID or DL.

    - Not having to take a weapons safety course for CCW or have a valid CO ID to obtain a CCW permit.

    As crazy as this sounds, it's 100% legal. I guess it's just some of the "perks" for all the ass pain I have to deal with on a daily basis... uhhh I mean serving this wonderful country of ours.
    It is not on its face a loophole and acting like it is would be committing a crime that can be prosecuted as a felony.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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