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Thread: Police Seizure of Unrelated Firearms After an Arrest.

  1. #1
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    Police Seizure of Unrelated Firearms After an Arrest.

    Hi all,

    I've noticed an alarming tendency for police to get a warrant and seize all of the firearms a person owns after an arrest for what appear to be non-violent offenses.

    ex: A restraining order issued as a result of a divorce disagreement. Classic he said/she said and the cops come to take all of the guns. I'm not planning to get divorced (in case my wife reads this), but just using this as an example

    I don't have any specific incidents, but it seems to be a trend.

    I was wondering if any of you have taken any steps or have any suggestions to facilitate a speedy and legal transfer of all of your firearms to a family member or friend in the event that you are arrested?

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Another bothersome thing (or two) about your scenario is that the guns, or at least some of them, might belong to the person who obtained the restraining order, therefore presumably needs protection. And we all know that the police don't provide personal protection (unless you're an elected official). So their actions would make the situation worse.

    Or in the case of a raid (as I read about recently done by my local PD) on the whole house, they were crowing about taking 15 firearms, ONE of which they carefully pointed out was stolen. When I asked (on their FB page) "what about the other 14" my comment was deleted. So they don't like people pointing out that perhaps they stole property that wasn't illegally posessed, or asking if the guns were owned by someone not the person they arrested. And since they posted the address of the house they raided, their enemies (or 'business' competitors) could attack.

    The only times I've had a pistol stolen by police, once was after an illegal stop & illegal arrest. It was in my car in a closed (but not locked) case. That one the city settled rather than go to trial.
    The other was in my home after an illegal entry & illegal search, & they broke the zipper pull to get into the locked case, then stole the pistol. That one's not yet in court... working on it. (And they left the other pistol sitting on my bedside table!)
    So I didn't have opportunity to transfer my property to anyone in either case.
    But in both, the police broke laws. Not much comfort at the time, but somewhere down the road it will work in my favor.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 04-25-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to what the standard practice here is (and the law).

    I know a friend that was allowed to turn them over to another friend for the duration of the TRO (temporary restraining order).

    TRO's are harsh for gun owners as there is no actual testimony in court. Just "I fear for my safety" and it is immediately granted. I had one 10 years ago and thought it would be an issue in my permitting process as well (wasn't as the TRO was never continued).

    I also know of someone that wasn't allowed to turn them over as well.

    Curious,

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Another bothersome thing (or two) about your scenario is that the guns, or at least some of them, might belong to the person who obtained the restraining order, therefore presumably needs protection. And we all know that the police don't provide personal protection (unless you're an elected official). So their actions would make the situation worse.

    Or in the case of a raid (as I read about recently done by my local PD) on the whole house, they were crowing about taking 15 firearms, ONE of which they carefully pointed out was stolen. When I asked (on their FB page) "what about the other 14" my comment was deleted. So they don't like people pointing out that perhaps they stole property that wasn't illegally posessed, or asking if the guns were owned by someone not the person they arrested. And since they posted the address of the house they raided, their enemies (or 'business' competitors) could attack.

    The only times I've had a pistol stolen by police, once was after an illegal stop & illegal arrest. It was in my car in a closed (but not locked) case. That one the city settled rather than go to trial.
    The other was in my home after an illegal entry & illegal search, & they broke the zipper pull to get into the locked case, then stole the pistol. That one's not yet in court... working on it. (And they left the other pistol sitting on my bedside table!)
    So I didn't have opportunity to transfer my property to anyone in either case.
    But in both, the police broke laws. Not much comfort at the time, but somewhere down the road it will work in my favor.
    You're mistaken. The police are above the law so can't break it. That many are imbeciles, liars, thieves, drunks and thugs is OK because they have a badge.


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    I'm sorry. I meant high grade morons, IQ of 80-89, not imbeciles. Would you care to debate 'liars, thieves, drunks and thugs' substantively?
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 04-27-2011 at 01:09 PM.

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    I don't want this to turn into a political discussion.

    I also want to keep it specific to CT. There are processes for a transfer of ownership of handguns in CT.

    I was looking for:

    1) thoughts on, or examples of, this happening in CT.
    2) ideas on preparations I can make to do the transfer FAST and legal if necessary. in other words, if I'm arrested for anything more than a motor vehicle violation, I want to have a plan in place where I can get the guns out of the house ASAP, in compliance with all state, local, and federal laws.

    My initial thought was this:

    Get a friend to agree to receive the firearms.
    Get photo copies of the friends pistol permit and drivers license for my records. (necessary for a lawful transfer of a handgun in CT)

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by dcmdon; 04-27-2011 at 11:58 AM.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post

    My initial thought was this:

    Get a friend to agree to receive the firearms.
    Get photo copies of the friends pistol permit and drivers license for my records. (necessary for a lawful transfer of a handgun in CT)

    Thoughts?
    If you are that worried all you need to do is have a friend who is willing to take them from you. Have the appropriate forms all filled out (you can download them at the DPS website). Then if you are arrested and found ineligible to possess firearms you can simply call DPS for transfer authorization numbers, give your friend the guns and mail in the forms to the DPS and the "buyer's" local PD. This of course is only necessary for handguns. For long guns and shotguns you can simple give them to your friend, no paperwork required. You also DO NOT need a copy of anyone's permit or driver's license, so no reason to have that.

    On a second note, why are you worried about it? Are you frequently breaking the law and just have not been caught? Law abiding people have nothing to worry about, the police will actually have to arrest you for a firearm crime or domestic violence or someone would have to file a restraining order against you before they will demand or seize your firearms.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Law abiding people have nothing to worry about, the police will actually have to arrest you for a firearm crime or domestic violence or someone would have to file a restraining order against you before they will demand or seize your firearms.
    What does being law abiding have to do with not getting a restraining order filed against you or being arrested?

  8. #8
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    What does being law abiding have to do with not getting a restraining order filed against you or being arrested?
    Well, most people will go there whole lives without worrying about a restraining order. In order for a person to get one against you (outside a domestic violence situation) they have to go to a police station and swear out a complaint against you, they are doing so under oath, perjury on a restraining order is a very big deal in the CT court system, if they find out the complainant lied they usually will charge them with perjury. Then the person must appear in court before a Judge to get a "permanent court ordered restraining order". They will again under oath have to explain to a judge why the RO is justified. If the defendant has witnesses to refute the allegations and the person trying to get the RO does not it may not be issued and if the witness statements directly conflict with the complaint someone may have to explain themself to a judge. So do nothing to get a restraining order filed agaist you and you have nothing to worry about.

    As for the arrest, I see where you are coming from (Law abiding) but you are the exception to the norm in CT. Most permit holders are not open carrying due to fear of unjust arrest. The ones that are, you included are aware of what could happen to you should some uninformed police officer be called to a "man with a gun" and are willing to fight it and face the consequences should you be unlawfully arrested.

    I open carry occasionally but other than that I do nothing which would put me into a position to be arrested. Again the vast majority of law abiding citizens have nothing to fear being arrested for on a regular basis. If the OP answers that they open carry on a regular basis I can see why they are afraid of arrest. (Just so we are clear I am a pro open carry supporter and appreciate your efforts to further our goal of getting all law enforcement departments to know open carry is legal with a permit and to stop the false arrests and harrassment.)

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Well, most people will go there whole lives without worrying about a restraining order. In order for a person to get one against you (outside a domestic violence situation) they have to go to a police station and swear out a complaint against you, they are doing so under oath, perjury on a restraining order is a very big deal in the CT court system, if they find out the complainant lied they usually will charge them with perjury. Then the person must appear in court before a Judge to get a "permanent court ordered restraining order". They will again under oath have to explain to a judge why the RO is justified. If the defendant has witnesses to refute the allegations and the person trying to get the RO does not it may not be issued and if the witness statements directly conflict with the complaint someone may have to explain themself to a judge. So do nothing to get a restraining order filed agaist you and you have nothing to worry about.

    As for the arrest, I see where you are coming from (Law abiding) but you are the exception to the norm in CT. Most permit holders are not open carrying due to fear of unjust arrest. The ones that are, you included are aware of what could happen to you should some uninformed police officer be called to a "man with a gun" and are willing to fight it and face the consequences should you be unlawfully arrested.

    I open carry occasionally but other than that I do nothing which would put me into a position to be arrested. Again the vast majority of law abiding citizens have nothing to fear being arrested for on a regular basis. If the OP answers that they open carry on a regular basis I can see why they are afraid of arrest. (Just so we are clear I am a pro open carry supporter and appreciate your efforts to further our goal of getting all law enforcement departments to know open carry is legal with a permit and to stop the false arrests and harrassment.)
    Your point was that law abiding people 'like us' should have nothing to worry about. But we do have something to worry about. Arrests of innocent people happen all the time. So do TROs.

    We should all be very concerned about people's rights being taken away without due process.
    Last edited by Rich B; 04-27-2011 at 04:47 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    brk913:

    You couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, a TRO you don't even need to go in front of a judge.

    Temporary orders also have no burden of proof. I've seen women say "he hit me!" with NO proof EVER.

    Many women that are in relationships with firearms owners know that that is the one way they can get back at a guy for any perceived wrong.

    Drag him through the mud, go through the humiliation and stressful process of turning in their firearms for simply being in a relationship with the wrong woman.

    As someone who goes to firearms board hearings, I see this all too often as well.

    So, yes, there is a ton of room for abuse here.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  11. #11
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    brk913:

    You couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, a TRO you don't even need to go in front of a judge.

    Temporary orders also have no burden of proof. I've seen women say "he hit me!" with NO proof EVER.

    Jonathan
    No offense but I am right on the money. I never said anyone needed to go before a judge for a tro. However, unless the PD are responding to a domestic disturbance and make an arrest (in which case a TRO is mandatory in CT and both parties receive the tro) a person must appear at their local PD and swear under oath to the facts as to why they are requesting such order. Within 10 days a court hearing is held to determine if just cause exists to put in force a RO for 6 months. If the courts or the PD find out the complainant is making it all up they will be prosecuted in CT. I worked for the courts for may years and saw it happen. In fact whenever a victim used to contact my office to file a "complaint" against someone on probation we demanded they come down, look us in the eye and make their complaint under oath and in writing.

    Again, this is not the norm, it is a rare occurance that a spiteful spouse or domestic partner will do this. If you are in such a situation I suggest you get out of it, better to be alone than worrying about what the crazy (significant other) will do to make your life miserable next. Pack your stuff and get away from such a person.

    My simple point was this, the vast MAJORITY of people have nothing to fear. They will not be arrested, they will not be the victim of a false complaint or RO. Don't believe me? Ask as many people as you can or ask a group of random strangers on the street if they have ever been arrested for any reason or had a RO taken out agaist them. You will find the percentage to very low if existant at all.

    I am not saying it does not ever happen, it just is not something a law abiding citizen really needs to worry about unless they already know they are putting themselves out there by either actually breaking the law, living in a domestic situation that probably should not exist or as in Rich's case performing an action that although allowed by law is still not well known amongst the general public and law enforcement.

    Again, I have no fear of being arrested (although I do OC at times and am willing to face the consequences of doing so in this state as I know eventually I would be exonerated in court). Other than that "risky behavior" I do not break the law, I do not associate with criminals, I do not put myself in a position to be accused of breaking the law, I do not get into confrontations with others (physical or verbal) and I have a harmonious relationship with my spouse and family.

    As a fellow gun owner I hope you are in the same situation as me. If you are not I suggest you change your course of action so that you are not arrested for any reason and get out of any relationship where you could be falsely accused of DV and get an RO put out on you. Again, as far as the OC goes, if you are willing to do it and put your neck out there you need to be willing to accept the consequences. Not saying I agree with Police Officers who arrest someone for lawful activity, it is clearly wrong but unfortunately it is the situation right now in CT. If more people like Rich were to get out there and be willing to "take one for the team" if need be the situation of false arrests for simply OC would end in CT.

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    both parties did not receive the TRO - not in my case.

    You are looking at it from the side of the observer in the court system.

    My case, the police report said that the officer didn't suspect any wrong doing on my behalf. Still, the TRO went in force because "she said".

    The only reason she did this was so she can get an order and prevent me from seeing my son, which is the only way she could get back at me because I didn't care either way about our split.

    That being said, the same thing can be applied to firearms. Guy can want to cut and run, but she can pull this TRO nonsense just to put him through the whole process of transferring firearms and such.

    The system is heavily skewed in this state, and it has NOTHING to do with justice.

    Much reform is needed on that front.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Not saying I agree with Police Officers who arrest someone for lawful activity, it is clearly wrong but unfortunately it is the situation right now in CT. If more people like Rich were to get out there and be willing to "take one for the team" if need be the situation of false arrests for simply OC would end in CT.
    But you keep dodging the point that people are making and your seemingly agitating. That point is that it is wrong and screwed up that police can revoke your right without due process. And there are situations (regardless of what 'risky behavior' or anything else) where this is happening to law abiding people in CT.

    That should stop. That is what people here are saying. Your 'solution' seems to be 'just don't do anything wrong' and that is not an answer to the problem, it is just an attempt at justifying and rationalizing the problem.

    You are arguing that there are remedies involved in falsified TROs, but dodging the idea that no one should be able to have their rights revoked for any length of time without just cause. Someone's word is not good enough to satisfy that standard.
    Last edited by Rich B; 04-29-2011 at 01:48 PM.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    But you keep dodging the point that people are making and your seemingly agitating. That point is that it is wrong and screwed up that police can revoke your right without due process. And there are situations (regardless of what 'risky behavior' or anything else) where this is happening to law abiding people in CT.

    That should stop. That is what people here are saying. Your 'solution' seems to be 'just don't do anything wrong' and that is not an answer to the problem, it is just an attempt at justifying and rationalizing the problem.

    You are arguing that there are remedies involved in falsified TROs, but dodging the idea that no one should be able to have their rights revoked for any length of time without just cause. Someone's word is not good enough to satisfy that standard.
    I am not arguing anything and I am sorry if you think I am "agitating" anyone. I agree with almost everything you posted. You are all missing my point, the OP posed a question about having his firearms ready for transfer in case he or she becomes ineligible to possess them. I gave him the correct answer and I simply questioned the reasoning behind it.

    There will always be people who have their rights infringed upon from unjust regulations and laws, that is not the topic of this thread and things like that would need to be changed at the legislative level. I simply questioned the OP as to why they think they need to have a "quick transfer" readily available. To all who have posted about this I ask, "Do you have your guns all lined up to transfer them immediately?" I am guessing the answer is no, I do not either and do not know anyone who does, so I was simply wondering the reasoning behind this.

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    To all who have posted about this I ask, "Do you have your guns all lined up to transfer them immediately?" I am guessing the answer is no, I do not either and do not know anyone who does, so I was simply wondering the reasoning behind this.
    I have all my paperwork easily available if I ever needed to perform a transfer.

    The reasoning is as described - people being denied due process.

    I would much rather transfer to a friend over a LEO any day. There are a lot of law abiding citizens in New Orleans that would really like to have their property (firearms) returned to them...... and never will.

    The system isn't right, but it is what it is. As someone that sits in on the BFPE hearings (all of them since January) I can tell you that it does happen. It's a he-said, she-said and a TRO is granted. Often simply because the spouse wants to do nothing more than be a complete and total B!+@*.........

    Which, is kinda ironic that woman fought so hard for equal rights, and now some want to be a victim...... but thankfully, that is a smaller fragment of society.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    I am not arguing anything and I am sorry if you think I am "agitating" anyone.
    I didn't say you were agitating anyone, only agitating the issue.

    I agree with almost everything you posted. You are all missing my point, the OP posed a question about having his firearms ready for transfer in case he or she becomes ineligible to possess them. I gave him the correct answer and I simply questioned the reasoning behind it.
    An answer of 'if you are law abiding you shouldn't have to worry about it' equates to 'if you live in a good neighborhood you don't need to worry about crime'.

    I simply questioned the OP as to why they think they need to have a "quick transfer" readily available.
    And I would respond with 'why do you have a [fire extinguisher] [first aid kit] [firearm]?'. Bad things happen. It is good to have a plan (or a bunch of plans).

    To all who have posted about this I ask, "Do you have your guns all lined up to transfer them immediately?" I am guessing the answer is no, I do not either and do not know anyone who does, so I was simply wondering the reasoning behind this.
    I wouldn't say I could jettison everything in record time or anything, but I have given thought to this issue and I have a plan in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    If you are that worried all you need to do is have a friend who is willing to take them from you. Have the appropriate forms all filled out (you can download them at the DPS website). Then if you are arrested and found ineligible to possess firearms you can simply call DPS for transfer authorization numbers, give your friend the guns and mail in the forms to the DPS and the "buyer's" local PD. This of course is only necessary for handguns. For long guns and shotguns you can simple give them to your friend, no paperwork required. You also DO NOT need a copy of anyone's permit or driver's license, so no reason to have that.

    On a second note, why are you worried about it? Are you frequently breaking the law and just have not been caught? Law abiding people have nothing to worry about, the police will actually have to arrest you for a firearm crime or domestic violence or someone would have to file a restraining order against you before they will demand or seize your firearms.
    I am a 100% law abiding citizen. However, if I were to be arrested for open carry, I would be worried about a warrant and seizure of firearms.

    Drivers license number and pistol permit numbers are required. Copies of the docs aren't. I apologize for the ambiguity.

    Don

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