Kennewick OCer makes KPD police blotter...

Bo said:

If I'd been the officer responding to my local Albertson's for a MWAG call and found a young man packing in in a thigh-rig, a couple spare mags and a tactical flashlight on his belt, and he wasn't a member of our SRT on a lunch break from training, I'd probably fall down laughing.

Yeah, open-carry is a great thing, but ostentatious open carry in a tactical rig is silly. C'mon now. Really? Why? More comfortable? No way. I hate wearing a strap tight around my thigh.

BigDave posted
I am a certified firearms instructor for my department. It is a fact; weapon retention is more effective from holster worn on the waist than with the thigh-drop holster. You have substantially more strength with your dominant hand/arm at the waist-level than at lower-thigh level. Most effective weapons-retention strikes and holds are taught for waist-mounted handguns. My department's special teams are now given the option of wearing our holsters on belts or drop-leg tactical rigs, and many are chosing to go back to wearing holsters on the belts -- it's more comfortable, a faster draw, and does provide for better retention, especially if an officer has to go hands-on.

Of course, much of our experience comes from wrestling/fighting with bad people, so if you want to wear your cool tactical rig when grocery shopping, don't take it personally if you hear some snickering and chuckles ...

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If so why do the military of many different countries use it?

Where is your stats? How are you able to speak for someone else's comfort? Ahhhhh typical.

I wonder what personal choices you make I can snicker at.

sudden valley gunner said:

If so why do the military of many different countries use it?

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In many cases it's because their waist is already loaded with all kinds of other gear. Body armor and load carrying gear loaded with ammo, special ordnance, first aid gear, etc. The Thigh may be one of the few places left to carry a handgun which for the military, is not a primary weapon.

If someone wants to carry in a "tactical" holster because they like it and feel it serves their needs, so be it. It's their right. If they are doing so because of its "tacticool" appearance, again, its their right. They should just be prepared to deal with the added attention they are drawing to themselves because of their choice. Some prefer to carry in a more conventional manner and they are more concerned with safely carrying a firearm for their protection than to call attention to themselves. Some feel that they need all the attention they can get. It's all a matter of choice.

Bo said:

Yeah, open-carry is a great thing, but ostentatious open carry in a tactical rig is silly. C'mon now. Really? Why? More comfortable? No way. I hate wearing a strap tight around my thigh.

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Maybe not more comfortable for you, but my Safariland drop-leg for my 1911 is extremely comfortable. My Army issue M9 drop-leg is also pretty comfortable. This is completely your opinion. Others have their own opinions.

I am a certified firearms instructor for my department. It is a fact; weapon retention is more effective from holster worn on the waist than with the thigh-drop holster. You have substantially more strength with your dominant hand/arm at the waist-level than at lower-thigh level. Most effective weapons-retention strikes and holds are taught for waist-mounted handguns. My department's special teams are now given the option of wearing our holsters on belts or drop-leg tactical rigs, and many are chosing to go back to wearing holsters on the belts -- it's more comfortable, a faster draw, and does provide for better retention, especially if an officer has to go hands-on.

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How many OCers have had to defend from gun grabs? I haven't seen but one story, and that story wasn't even a "gun grab", the guy was just prodding at the weapon.

They aren't common and for the most part any OCer not trained in retention is going to fare about the same in a gun grab situation, regardless of carry style. My Safariland dropleg is level III retention. My 1911 isn't going anywhere if I don't want it to. Unless the guy grabbing at the gun know's exactly how to operate it, chances are he won't even get the thumb break pushed forward, let alone getting the 1911 out of my holster. Id be more afraid of a gun grab out of my bladetech on my hip. But again, they don't really happen.

Of course, much of our experience comes from wrestling/fighting with bad people, so if you want to wear your cool tactical rig when grocery shopping, don't take it personally if you hear some snickering and chuckles ...

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Like we don't already deal with stares and and people whispering when we walk into stores where OC is uncommon? I could care less if people "chuckle." If that's how I'm comfortable and how I prefer carrying, I'd do that to make myself feel more comfortable about being able to defend myself.

I don't OC with either of my droplegs, but I don't frown on people who do. I also don't frown on people who wear red t-shirts instead of blue, shorts instead of jeans, or flip-flops instead of boots. These are all personal preference choices.

I'm not attacking you, just putting out my view on it.

NavyLT said:

I'm just saying we don't like it when people label us with terms like cowboy and wild west because we open carry, yet some people make the same judgements about those who carry in a certain type of holster or carry long guns.

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Can't argue that, if they were to wear a tootoo, we would not laugh either right.

How many OCers have had to defend from gun grabs? I haven't seen but one story, and that story wasn't even a "gun grab", the guy was just prodding at the weapon.

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Wasn't arguing that, merely responding to another member's specific question.
Look, I'm not disagreeing that there isn't a specific purpose or need for the tactical thigh rig in many applications. I will say that in many instances, experience has demonstrated that the need for this type of rig may be limiited, while pointing out that yeah, somewhere along the line, some folks jumped on the concept as a really tacti-cool thing ... OC'ing with a thigh rig will certainly call attention the fact that one is armed, and, just sayin' maybe make someone else think one is trying present a certain image ...

For me, I'm trying to strip weight off my rig, not put extra weight on it; I've also had to do a lot of running when all geared up, and for me, I simply dislike having three and a half/four pounds on my thigh when I'm running (especially if I've got a gas mask in its carrier strapped to my other thigh) ...

Whatever floats your boat.

:dude:

BigDave said:

Can't argue that, if they were to wear a too, we would not laugh either right.

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- I'd say correct .. you shouldn't laugh at people for exercising their liberties, or for being "who they are" lest they laugh at you.
- I'll ask: Should we laugh at people for being fat, bald, handicapped ... Should he laugh at them for their choice of car, some people rally DO like the Mustang II. - Maybe we should laugh at them because they like to wear a stetson hat that extends to their shoulder, or a belt buckle that we can almost see from behind like a pair of fake breasts. - I could laugh at one's desire to conform so heavily into the "blend in and look normal" ideology that I'd dare call them sheeple, or suggest that their fear of standing out should be a persuading factor to entice them back to simply carrying concealed so that people don't really notice you.

- I'll ask again ... are we trying to raise awareness regarding OC? And how do we do that if we are not being noticed. - I know there are two (well three really) trains of thought here, and yes, in reality i respect both.. I just wish both would respect the others too.

1) Some OC simply because they want the tactical advantage, raising awareness and getting the word out really is not their goal. They want to quietly go about their business without raising an eyebrow or being noticed... Doesn't really want to talk about his/her gun, just wants to be left alone to feel normal.

2) Some OC as a political statement, they value self protection as much as the first guy, but they tend to enjoy a little lime-light and want to get the word out that OC is legal, and that good guys carry guns too.... Loves to discuss the political arena, the pro-v-cons of being an armed citizen and spread the word.

3) I'll ad a third here, the eccentric gun owner who doesn't really care if he/she is noticed or not, but enjoys carrying something rare, odd, or unusual. They aren't necessarily trying to blend or stand out, but carrying that vintage broomhandle in .30 luger in an original holster is a little sexy to them (regardless of what others think or feel)..... Would rather talk about the vintage arm's history than the political arena surrounding the pro/anti-debate.

- Remember to, it's often a case where the belt line guy is laughing at the thigh-leg guy for being a rebel thats too expressive and showing off, and the thigh-leg guy is laughing at the belt line guy for being an uptight conformist tart who is afraid to express himself.... fact is, neither should be laughing, in the end they both simply desire the right to be who they are without being hassled.

- Anyways, and again, Please don't take any affront, i mean no insult to anyone... I simply want people to realize that as we fight for our liberties, we should not laugh at or deprive others of the same liberties to freely excessive our rights to "be who we are" as armed citizens. Were as I myself would fall into the third category, i often carry discreetly (1911 at the belt line) but sometimes i carry my western rig, i just like it. If i have a vintage luger or other rare item, i would probably sport that upon occasion too.... not for them, but for me... and I think you might find that many of the thigh leg guys just simply enjoy carrying like that for themselves, not for you or me to notice or care about.

- So, What exactly IS freedom and liberty? - Do we all value it to the fullest extent of the US constitution or not? - Should we re-wright it to only include socially acceptable manners of carry? - Or do we want to embrace it to the fullest extent? - We are who we are peoples. Give liberty a chance to grow.

- We all need each other, and we should embrace and accept and support each others aspect, as they all have a place in our effort to gain acceptance. The show off IS going to raise way more awareness than Mr.Discrete. And Mr.Discrete is going to show others who notice, that there really isn't anything different between the two. We all have a place in this, and so long as we are not doing anything stupid, like pulling it out to show it to someone in Safeway, then who really cares. Fact is, i get way more compliments and handshakes when i wear my western rig, compared to my more discrete 1911-belt line days. I do both, so i really can attest to what happens in both scenarios.

- I'd challenge both parties to switch for a week -- try it, see what really happens.
- The belt line guys might just have a little fun and realize they get no negative reactions.
- The leg guys will be really bored carrying at the waist because no one noticed.

- lol, that folks, might be an interesting challenge.

- Start treating each other with a little more respect and understanding, instead of opinionating each other -- we might get ahead a lot faster as a whole.



:dude: Bat

KSelig said:

How many OCers have had to defend from gun grabs? I haven't seen but one story, and that story wasn't even a "gun grab", the guy was just prodding at the weapon.

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0) in Milwaukee, WI last summer, which wasn't exactly a 'grab' (which is why it's #0)... he was robbed of his gun at gunpoint.

1) teen thug behind OCer in line @ checkout grabbed & pulled. Thanks to retention holster, thug got nothing more than a shove & shout. (Parent of thug didn't see anything, got mad at OCer for shouting @ thug.) Should have called police.

2) big box store greeter snuck up behind OCer who had just entered store, tried to grab gun from holster, ended up on the floor in great pain, then was in surgery not too much later to repair his jaw & knee (IIRC). OCer had no problem with police, mostly because of witnesses who saw greeter try to take gun, & OCer didn't draw, just used karate.

Batousaii said:

...you shouldn't laugh at people for exercising their liberties, or for being "who they are" lest they laugh at you.

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+100

Batousaii said:

Should he laugh at them for their choice of car...

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Only if it's a Hummer.
Knowing the alternate, tittilating meaning of the word I can't keep from chuckling when I see the machine.

Batousaii said:

...are we trying to raise awareness regarding OC? And how do we do that if we are not being noticed.

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I carry primarily for defense of myself. I will also defend any child, or if I'm with a family member or friend.

If asked about why I carry, or guns in general, I'll have a conversation (with citizens... police are another matter), but I don't carry as a statement or with the intent of educating people (beyond simply them seeing that people carrying guns does not equal other people getting shot willy-nilly).

I think the best 'statement' I can make is to go quietly about my business and eventually probably someone will notice that the thing on my belt is a gun... and then realize how long it took to notice what it was, as well as understanding that I'm behaving exactly like everyone else around me (in the grocery, for example).

But I've had several times where I've been in conversation with people at fairly close range (arm's length, or not much over) and until I drew attention to my hip they never noticed. One of those times was in the summer, when I was wearing tan shorts & a white polo with a black holster & pistol.

Batousaii said:

I know there are two (well three really) trains of thought here...
1) Some OC simply because they want the tactical advantage
2) Some OC as a political statement

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I OC because it's the only legal way available to me for now.
When I visit relatives in other states, people whom I choose not to have "the conversation" with, I conceal. They'll never know I'm carrying unless I have to defend us.

Bat you make a lot of good points about which people should give more thought.

I say that with the traditional "but IMO" following:

I respect to the right of others to dress and carry in any manner in which they should choose. Won't argue that point. Thigh rigs with full BDUs and stocking cap with tactical gloves + slung long gun (ooops OT) is their right and in many places legal. One may wear an oilskin duster with 2 AR type pistols holstered and also be legal. Yes both will get attention, but likely have broken no laws. One may also wear a tutu which another poster suggested.

The above does go over the line, at least where intent is concerned on OCDO, hence the rules of OCDO are offended. The site is dedicate to enhancing, defending, promoting the right to OC as we go about our normal everyday lives while doing so with properly holstered handguns. Now the point here is NOT the debate on any of these words and what does this or that mean. It is NOT about what your rights are or whether something is in fact legal.

It is all about perception, public relations, winning the war of minds. There are those that would claim giant gains might be more obtainable by being more radical, in your face with certain elements; yet the risk there is also greater, the potential set backs more painful.

OC is educational, political, convenient, comfortable, a personal choice - yes in varying degrees for different people. Though politics and/or education may not be on one's list of reasons for OCing, you cannot divorce yourself from the cause and effect equation. You are identified as such by the media, people, lawmakers etc, etc, et al.

Bottom line is that OCDO has selected a path - one which I think is very effective. To others it may seem overly narrow. It is what it is by design, after a lot of careful thought and some on going modification/adaption. I find that most people agree with this philosophy and find it most effective also.

That is what I have to say - yata hey.

Disclaimer: The above are my words/opinions and are not to be construed as being endorsed, sanctioned or approved by our sponsors: Mike and John.

Grapeshot said:

It is all about perception, public relations, winning the war of minds....

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I 100% agree with you here sir. The impression we give to those around us is paramount. -Now, my very first encounter with OC was at my place of employment, where unfortunately we had to ask the gentleman to take his weapon to his car (establishment rules). This guy had a glock on a thigh holster, was with his daughter and was a very pleasant individual when we approached. At this point, i had no idea it was legal. Of course he mentioned it was legal, sited some RCW, but understood private property. We thanked him and shook his hand, and thus began the debate among the crew where we looked it up and I discovered this site... wow i felt robed, i could have been open carrying all these years ?? lol.
- Well, despite his swat style leg rig, he was well received, had not caused any alarm, and the impression my crew was left with was one of a perfect gentleman. It left us curious and motivated to know more about OC. In that regards, i owe my knowledge, involvement and current practice of open carry to a thigh rig. I also give great thanks to the excellent attitude, manners and polite conversation that was exchanged with this gentleman. It left an impression that guided me to take interest and join this group, and offered an example to be followed. Had he been wearing it discreetly at the belt line, he might never have been noticed, and I might still be a concealed carry guy out of ignorance.

- My personal experience, both in the above story, but also being the guy in a drop loop western rig (as well as belt lined 1911 depending on weather) has shown me time and time again, that perception is the sum and total of various equations, not just one. We as people are not judged simply by how we look, but by how we walk and talk and react to external influences and stimuli. Of course i respect and agree that anything can be taken over an edge, pushed to far, or interpreted wrong etc. To be aware of? Sure it could be. But i think the finer points of those lines might be different in based on various factors, location, cultures mindsets etc. It's a debate that could run for years. - Were not really talking about the guy carrying an arsenal wearing slogan tee-shirts and BDU's.. but even then, maybe his attitude would be more of an impact after a dialog was started with him. Deciding other's reactions for them is rather judgmental, and who are we to say what people will and wont react to. I myself was rather surprised at how interested people were about my western rig, as opposed to "reacting" about it, i got way more positive conversation than anything.
- I would hope we count more on our codes of conduct than our dress codes to create an impression. For me, and those around me on my first encounter with an OCer, it was how he acted that made us receptive and curious, and gave us a good impression.

:dude: Bat

Batousaii said:

I would hope we count more on our codes of conduct than our dress codes to create an impression. For me, and those around me on my first encounter with an OCer, it was how he acted that made us receptive and curious, and gave us a good impression.

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Don't disagree a bit. Think that is precisely why there is "no line in the sand" on OCDO and why there is a much more tolerant attitude to different opinions, ideas and styles. Did not intend to give leave an impression otherwise. Even OT discussions can generally be accommodated in the General Forum or the Social Lounge.

Perhaps it is enough to say that it is good when we recognize all of the factors and act accordingly. To borrow an expression/oath from elsewhere: Do no harm.

To me that is part of being responsible. not only to my friends and neighbors, but to myself as well.

I laugh and snicker at peoples posts who feel their involvment in law or military make them better informed than the rest of us and that that somehow their opinion matters more.....

There is the possibility, SVG, that real-world experience (i.e., a year's worth of fun patrolling the Al Akbar province or going out to serve a felony warrant on the Hilltop) might just make somewhat better informed than the person whose "experience" is only what he's learned on the internet or from reactions of others while showing off his cool-guy gear down at the local grocery ... Does that opinion matter more? Does anyone's opinion matter more than anyone else's on the internet? In my world, I base my opinions on my experience and the behavior of others, not the opinions of others ... YMMV.

Bo said:

There is the possibility, SVG, that real-world experience (i.e., a year's worth of fun patrolling the Al Akbar province or going out to serve a felony warrant on the Hilltop) might just make somewhat better informed than the person whose "experience" is only what he's learned on the internet or from reactions of others while showing off his cool-guy gear down at the local grocery ... Does that opinion matter more? Does anyone's opinion matter more than anyone else's on the internet? In my world, I base my opinions on my experience and the behavior of others, not the opinions of others ... YMMV.

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+100 Bo, there are those as SVG that want to minimize others experience and knowledge just to try and inflate their own ego.

There is a real difference between reading the forums versus working, living the experience each day they go to work.

Why must boosting ego be such a bad thing? Some times, things are so cool; it makes you happy. If it's legal and he/she is harming no one and making you get the giggles from looking at him/her in their tacticool gear, you should thank them for making you happy too.

Ego might just be a "negative" synonym for "self esteem". Having high self esteem leads to less suicides! Yay!!!!!

Nice.. Boosted is best.

My Integra is boosted, running 8-lbs on street, up to 20-lbs track, just got my aluminum flywheel behind a stage-4 6-puck clutch, engines is currently out of the car.. so hopefully i can inflate her ego soon.. er.. engine i mean... Boosted is always a blast... er..blast.. we were talking about guns right?? --- My Bad.:lol:

- I always try to have fun in life. I dont want to look back and wish i'd been able to really be myself. - Live life, dont just make your way through it. --- We all have our experiences, and life lessons, and should realise that others do too.

As Ye Will... right Grape?

:dude: Be good to eachother.

Bat

-p.s. no spell checking here, unfortunatly you get to see my true form..lol

Bat...Interesting experience, I also was led to understand OC by example, and talking to someone that was OCing. But that was on the street back in 1970.

There were a whole group of guys with drop leg holsters, and single action Colts, shooting balloons in town. Part of the 4th of July celebration in Sedro Woolley.

After the compitition was over these guys were stolling around town with all their hardware still on. No one noticed (except me, a brand new US citizen).

Stopped one and talked to him about licenses and such, went home, holstered my Colt and went down to town to Join them. Been OCing since. Got my CPL much later, just so I could carry loaded in our car.

B-turbo A6 myself

Bat, please PM me with contact info, I have questions on a B18B1 engine swap...

You know what guys? Carry how you want. I won't state the obvious, we all know the rules.

Bo said:

There is the possibility, SVG, that real-world experience (i.e., a year's worth of fun patrolling the Al Akbar province or going out to serve a felony warrant on the Hilltop) might just make somewhat better informed than the person whose "experience" is only what he's learned on the internet or from reactions of others while showing off his cool-guy gear down at the local grocery ... Does that opinion matter more? Does anyone's opinion matter more than anyone else's on the internet? In my world, I base my opinions on my experience and the behavior of others, not the opinions of others ... YMMV.

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You don't have to be in a military to gain life experience or experience life and death situations. You know nothing about me and my experiences but good job in being your usual judgmental self. Like I said typical.

So you run into a lot of insurgents or Hill Top Crips carrying thigh rigs? Makes me wonder why that has anything to do with this topic or what is just simply another chance to gratuitously insert how you believe you are a better than other people because of what you have done?

By the way thigh rigs are not my style but I believe in liberty and not judging the choices of others. And you have consistantly jumped on these threads attacking others opinions.

P.S. My cousins both spent more time in Iraq and in extreme combat situations than you and they said to call you an F'ing POG whatever that means. (not my words if this is choosen to be edited)

My note would be good job in going from one job paid by tax payers to another. How about trying to make your own way in the world before judging others who are paying your salary.

SVG, Robert you need to cool your jets as you just think people do not know about you and your ethics of work and as a citizen.

Having family in the service and spent time in combat does not translate to you, you have just heard the stories not experienced them.

Batousaii said:

When going back to freedom and liberties, I'd comment that one should be able to be themselves, polite or not, and if not breaking any laws, should be left alone to go about their business, while wearing whatever, however they so desire. But for now, as we strive to reach that goal, yes, i agree, some measure should be made to ensure public relations and image are managed. I just believe attitude, manners and social grace play a much bigger role than the garments we employ to secure our arms.

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Excellent words. While manner of carry is a personal choice there remains the question, are some making the choice to express their view on 2A rights or merely gain personal attention?

some measure should be made to ensure public relations and image are managed

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If we fail to follow these words of advice, progress toward the goal, general acceptance of openly carried firearms, will be extremely slow, if not totally stopped due to the adverse reaction of the public. The whole movement will be judged by the actions of individuals, not the ideals and objectives of the whole.