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Thread: A LEO who gets it

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    A LEO who gets it

    Very well written article. Of course there are some minor details one couls squabble witth, but over all an article that I hope all LEO read.

    Link: http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...arry-citizens/
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  2. #2
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post.

    The comments following the article are what I always find interesting. Supposedly these are all LEO writing. Some understand the People's Rights and clearly some see the People's Rights as a impediment to their ability to do their job.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    I kinda agree on passive-aggressive against OC. But only kinda. I guess that's why it's passive. It was more of a both sides need to just "Deal with it." OC are gonna OC. LEOs are gonna bug you. "Play nice, kids." Sounds like it justifies LEOs taking your weapon for sefety. Sounds like it says if it is easy to get CC then you should CC.

    And not every1 that OC is protesting. I just started and I don't feel like I'm protesting. I'm going to start all my encounters with a smile and maybee even a handshake if everything seems nice. After I started I feel so much safer. I love it. Feels good. I'm still watching my back where I go and keep an eye out for exits but that's been my way forever. But I don't feel like if SHTF I'm going to be an inocent bistandard anymore. If cornered I have a dog in this fight. And I want every1 to know I have a weapon. It's a message to gangbangers and the like in a non-verbal tone - "I'm not the one you want to F*** with today." statement. No protest. Nothing agains governemtn. I'm a military aviator. I work for the government. I take my Oath VERY seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    The comments following the article are what I always find interesting. Supposedly these are all LEO writing. Some understand the People's Rights and clearly some see the People's Rights as a impediment to their ability to do their job.
    It is www.policeone.com soooooooo.

    Anyway. I agree the comments are worth taking note on. Some are agains OC and CC all together. = bad LEO.

    One even said
    "A downside to open carry (compared with concealed carry) is a bad guy (or two or three) can sneak up behind, smash the citizens' head, and quickly steal what's likely to be a quality handgun from a non-security type holster.

    Citizens are not likely to be trained in weapon retention techniques either. Concealed is a smarter way to carry.... "

    What makes you immune to the exact same attack just because you are a LEO? It's that subconcious mideset that some people have that LEOs are superhuman and immune to such thigns. Just because it was required of you during your training at the academy doesn't mean that the same exact and possibly better techniques can't be taught to a civilian. It's all up to the individual how far they want to take their training. None of your business how far they take their training.

    Something I learned in Military Aviation is you NEVER stop learning. And if you do, it's time to get out.
    Last edited by Brion; 04-26-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    This officer does not get it. He is far better than some, but getting it is:

    "OC is a right. Note the presence of the gun, just as anyone would, and move on!"

    That's it. That simple. That's getting it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member CORN BORN's Avatar
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    I like #1 and #2. Saying it is a LEGAL RIGHT and then going on to say that we are POLITICAL PROTEST, Extremists, Political Martyrs. I guess by thinking that we have this right and use this right makes us a target because we are not sheep and we voice our opinion. Oh there is another right(1st) we are taking advantage of.

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    "and then going on to say that we are POLITICAL PROTEST, Extremists, Political Martyrs. I guess by thinking that we have this right and use this right makes us a target"

    No,and there goes that selective/paranoia reading again.
    He says "there will be extremists who are willing to be political martyrs by doing whatever it takes to push their agenda and raise awareness to their cause. "

    Apparently he's been doing some reading in here, because his point gets proven 19 ways to Sunday and back every day on these forums.(hence the dozens of "what to do if/when w/ LEO'S" and "when/where to record LEO's" nonsense threads) There are indeed some extreme folks on our side who seem to look forward to provoking confrontations just to make some point or other-instead of just carrying out their right, and driving on with their lives. Something I think is ultimately going to undermine our cause,rather than further or promote it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I liked the article, it could have been better, but it could have been a lot worse too, like written by the NYC or Chicago COP, or worse yet, the Toronto COP.

    Anyway, I also appreciate the comments, it shows what I have experienced, some LEO are fully for the 2A and some are somewhat afraid. I think the LEO's have their own set of locker room (propaganda) myths that do not necessarily fit reality. A lot of misinformation can be spread that way.

    I personally have never been asked to surrender my weapon, and if I was, I would do so, and then politely discuss why the LEO felt threatened by an armed citizen.

    That attitude (that the LEO would feel threatened) is what I have a problem with. It is very simple in my mind,,,my nose is clean, otherwise I would not have a CPL, and I am not about to do anything to jeprodize that CPL.

    I was reading all of the reasons given that we (at least some of us) are perceived to carry openly. Not even close, unless you want to count mine as a protest against the Canadian Government's stupidity. When I lived in Canada my right to defend myself was extremely limited.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I liked the article, it could have been better, but it could have been a lot worse too, like written by the NYC or Chicago COP, or worse yet, the Toronto COP.

    Anyway, I also appreciate the comments, it shows what I have experienced, some LEO are fully for the 2A and some are somewhat afraid. I think the LEO's have their own set of locker room (propaganda) myths that do not necessarily fit reality. A lot of misinformation can be spread that way.

    I personally have never been asked to surrender my weapon, and if I was, I would do so, and then politely discuss why the LEO felt threatened by an armed citizen.

    That attitude (that the LEO would feel threatened) is what I have a problem with. It is very simple in my mind,,,my nose is clean, otherwise I would not have a CPL, and I am not about to do anything to jeprodize that CPL.

    I was reading all of the reasons given that we (at least some of us) are perceived to carry openly. Not even close, unless you want to count mine as a protest against the Canadian Government's stupidity. When I lived in Canada my right to defend myself was extremely limited.
    I don't surrender my weapon I am not handling it in their presence, I won't physically resist being disarmed (and then I'll sue after).

    I think the fear many cops have is because they do get what the 2A is about, even if it is only on a sub conscience level, it is about protection against tyranny. Who will be and are being used as the arm of tyranny now? It is the LEO and LEA's of this country. So yes they have valid reason to be afraid of an armed public and that is how it is supposed to be, because it is the fear of what an armed public might do that is supposed to keep them in check.

    Now what is wrong is them lobbying for and pushing for and enforcing unconstitutional and ever more restrictive firearm laws against the public whom they serve.,
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 04-27-2011 at 10:36 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I also think it was an ok article....

    I found the sidenote towards the end of the article interesting as it was written by the same LEO that wrote the article...

    "A side note to the citizen carrying openly: You should expect to be contacted law enforcement. You should expect to be feared by some, and considered to be a person of interest to many. Understand that by wearing a weapon in the open, you raise the perceived threat level in the eyes of law enforcement and other citizens. Friendly behavior goes a long way. People key on behavior rather than the weapon. Most folks respond well to a smile, polite behavior or a warm hello rather than a cold stare. I recommend that approach. You will be surprised how many people respond in a positive manner when you do that. Actually, this holds true on both sides of an open carry discussion, contact, or encounter..."

    I know this basically goes against the general feelings of this group ("do not talk to cops"), but the friendly approach been my philosophy even before I started to open carry....and it has server me well....

    Outdoorsman1
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  11. #11
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I also really liked tips #3 and #5...

    3.) Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run. One of the universities in Utah apparently tried this approach and it was leaked to the press. Now we run into civil liberties violations, etc.’

    5.) Even if you don’t agree with open carry, stay objective and keep your feelings to yourself. It is the behavior of the person — not the gun — that we key on. If they get annoyed and start protesting you, remember that unless they are threatening you with harm, they have a right to voice their opinion, even if they raise their voice at you.

    I'd say at least on the above levels... He gets it....

    Outdoorsman1
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  12. #12
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    No... the LEO doesn't 'get it'. Not quite.

    Police generally are the product of their local culture. Note: "open carry is a form of political protest. While the majority will do what is asked of them without a lot of fuss, there will be extremists who are willing to be political martyrs by doing whatever it takes to push their agenda and raise awareness to their cause." I suspect this was written by an Easterner. It's the exact attitude developed thru cultural indoctrination from childhood. Let me be clear; 'Open Carry is a form of proactive self defense. Open carry is the essence of 'The right to keep and bear arms.' And... let's not forget that pesky 'Shall not be infringed' part.
    As Kaspar noted: "If seeing a citizen with a gun is reason for them to fear for their life then they should have chosen a different job." All police swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution. All of it... not just the parts they agree with.

    I'm Arizonan. The individual right to keep and bear arms has been recognized here and enumerated in the State Constitution (AzC Art 2 Sec 26)for 100 years. I carry a side arm and sometimes a rifle (or both) openly. I need no government contrivance of permission to do so. Rights do not require permission. Rights only require responsibility in their exercise. I don't consider myself a political martyr and I'm not making any 'statements'. The vast majority of the time, there's nobody to make a statement to, nor reason for doing so. I carry arms (firearms and edged weapons) by choice as I will, where not otherwise prohibited.

    Quote: 'the majority will do what is asked of them'. Why ask anything when there is no RAS to do so? Again... this is a perpetuation of the two tierd 'us vs them' mentality near endemic in some LEA's. The visual presence of a properly holstered sidearm alone is no cause for any interaction between LEO's and civilians. No... it does not meet 'Terry vs Ohio' either. For all the doubting Thomas cops who may read this... Your department didn't issue your gun to shoot people. They issued it for self defense. That right to self defense is derived from the same 2nd Amendment some of you would deny your fellow citizens. Again... if you're scared of lawfully armed citizens going about their business... You're in the wrong occupation.

  13. #13
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    The perception of lethality in regards to Concealed Carry has always made me chuckle a bit. In regards to that topic, as a prior military trainer, the first person to be shot during field detainment of enemy POW's, is the one who goes willy-nilly reaching through his clothing or makes any sudden or attempted "sly" movements at all when being told to comply with a command to stay still.

    The trained response is simple. *Tap--Tap*. No questions.

    While it is true that CCW permitees who carry in a concealed manner, have actually thwarted some dastardly evil-doers plot in robbing a convenience store at some point in time, the act itself does not act as a physical deterrent. "Surprise" is not something you want to do to an individual who currently has his muzzle sweeping you, and a crowd of others. There are by the way, citations that can be pulled, such as Kennesaw, GA, where the mere presence of an open carrier prevented a crime.

    In regards to the "uniform" making you a target, this is an inaccuracy at best. While it may provide a focal point for retaliation by individuals seeing to make a point, gang initiation, or just plain retaliation (revenge), the fact is, uniforms in "numbers" flat out deter crime.

    This same philosophy applies to the armed citizen as well.

    I would rather, indeed, be surrounded by armed citizens everywhere I go, than leave a target rich environment for criminals with near no threat of mortal consequence.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    He does not get it in point #3. If he got it his statement would be, "Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them is both unwarranted and illegal." Instead he says "may backfire." Or it may not backfire. In any case, he nowhere states that behavior is wrong or discourages it... he only states it may come back to bite the officer in the butt.



    Why? Why should I expect to be contacted by law enforcement if I am not engaged in any behavior to indicate a criminal act?

    I think a huge part of our problem as a gun community is that we have come to accept certain levels of harassment as acceptable, thinly disguised as either "reasonable investigation" or "officer safety."

    Ok..I see your points and totally agree.... Now I "Get It"...

    Outdoorsman1
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    He does not get it in point #3. If he got it his statement would be, "Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them is both unwarranted and illegal." Instead he says "may backfire." Or it may not backfire. In any case, he nowhere states that behavior is wrong or discourages it... he only states it may come back to bite the officer in the butt.



    Why? Why should I expect to be contacted by law enforcement if I am not engaged in any behavior to indicate a criminal act?

    I think a huge part of our problem as a gun community is that we have come to accept certain levels of harassment as acceptable, thinly disguised as either "reasonable investigation" or "officer safety."
    Shack. Taken on balance and at first reading, not bad. But my squid friend has hit the nail on the head (or 'shack' which means direct hit to flier types...) "may backfire" is an outrageous apologia for unlawful action on the cop's part. In other words, be careful when you violate the rights of citizens because you may pick the wrong guy's rights to step on. The correct take to give cops is worry about the bad guys, not citizens exercising their rights that you have sworn to uphold and defend.

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    Regular Member CORN BORN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    "and then going on to say that we are POLITICAL PROTEST, Extremists, Political Martyrs. I guess by thinking that we have this right and use this right makes us a target"

    No,and there goes that selective/paranoia reading again.
    He says "there will be extremists who are willing to be political martyrs by doing whatever it takes to push their agenda and raise awareness to their cause. "

    Apparently he's been doing some reading in here, because his point gets proven 19 ways to Sunday and back every day on these forums.(hence the dozens of "what to do if/when w/ LEO'S" and "when/where to record LEO's" nonsense threads) There are indeed some extreme folks on our side who seem to look forward to provoking confrontations just to make some point or other-instead of just carrying out their right, and driving on with their lives. Something I think is ultimately going to undermine our cause,rather than further or promote it.
    Apparently j4l you got me figured out 19 ways to Sun. I will follow you from now on.

  17. #17
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    A LEO who gets it


    No he doesn't...................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I also really liked tips #3 and #5...

    3.) Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run. One of the universities in Utah apparently tried this approach and it was leaked to the press. Now we run into civil liberties violations, etc.’

    5.) Even if you don’t agree with open carry, stay objective and keep your feelings to yourself. It is the behavior of the person — not the gun — that we key on. If they get annoyed and start protesting you, remember that unless they are threatening you with harm, they have a right to voice their opinion, even if they raise their voice at you.

    I'd say at least on the above levels... He gets it....

    Outdoorsman1
    +1

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I found the article to be loaded with passive-aggressive negativity towards open carry.
    As a freelance writer, I find when someone throws comments like this out there in response to an article of that caliber, particularly when they're non-specific, blanket, and unsupported, there's usually something at work in the heart and mind of the reader, not the author of the article.

    Seriously, what's up? It's not that I don't respect your opinion. It's that you've not supported it yourself, and the article certainly doesn't support it.

    Enlighten us.
    Last edited by since9; 05-09-2011 at 09:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    As a freelance writer, I find when someone throws comments like this out there in response to an article of that caliber, particularly when they're non-specific, blanket, and unsupported, there's usually something at work in the heart and mind of the reader, not the author of the article.

    Seriously, what's up? It's not that I don't respect your opinion. It's that you've not supported it yourself, and the article certainly doesn't support it.

    Enlighten us.
    Keep reading. His more thoughtful assessments are posted later in the thread. I found all of his assessments, including the one you quoted, to be on target. This article cites the practical reasons for not bothering OCers. The author does not show respect for the right nor its exercise.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I already did.
    No, you didn't, at least not in this thread.

    "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do."

    Try again, LT. And seriously, whether you went through the Academy or OCS, links are not an acceptable substitute for qualified references.

    If you're actually a Navy LT, I do not need to demonstrate acceptable citing of one's credentials. That skill is central to all the service academies as well as all collegiate feed-in programs for all ancilliary academies, including OCS, OTS, and others.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Why? Why should I expect to be contacted by law enforcement if I am not engaged in any behavior to indicate a criminal act?
    God's honest truth, LT, is that you should not have to. Neither should I, nor any other honest, law-abiding citizen engaged in the lawful carry of a firearm in accordance with state and federal law.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Keep reading. His more thoughtful assessments are posted later in the thread. I found all of his assessments, including the one you quoted, to be on target. This article cites the practical reasons for not bothering OCers. The author does not show respect for the right nor its exercise.
    I'm giving it my best read, eye95. Yes, I still peek at your posts. Provided your content is supported, (Like this, and to which I'll gladly respond) instead of simply antagonistically directed at me (like much of the crap into which I'd love to wrap into a yarned ball of wax to be forgotten...).

    I'll send you another pm. Nothing special. Just a simple request.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    ...

    I'll send you another pm. Nothing special. Just a simple request.
    Stay out of my PM box. I replied to your PM telling you this--and copied the administrator. Anything you have to say to me will be said in the open for all (including the staff) to see.

  25. #25
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Stay out of my PM box. I replied to your PM telling you this--and copied the administrator. Anything you have to say to me will be said in the open for all (including the staff) to see.
    If you really would not like to hear from him, add him to your ignore list. It should then refuse PMs from that user.

    At any rate.

    I read a few more of his articles, and I get the general feeling from some things he mentions..

    "A lot of places mandate that a person with CC permit must inform the officer". -- I thought this was "the exception", and not "the rule". How many states must you inform the officer immediately? I did not think there were that many.

    "A lot of CC'ers will not be completely knowledgeable of the letter of the law". -- I would hope that anyone who even has interest in CC permits would read through their local and state firearms laws to have a pretty firm grasp on them, as well as the knowledge to stand up for your rights if need be. While I cannot speak for everyone, most people I know that have permits are just as, if not more knowledgeable about firearms laws than your average LEO. Is this not often the case?

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