Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: 8 tips on contacts with 'open carry' citizens

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Sulphur, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    100

    8 tips on contacts with 'open carry' citizens

    http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...arry-citizens/

    For your discussion.

    Admin, please remove this post.
    Last edited by oldgoat; 04-27-2011 at 12:49 AM. Reason: Previously posted elswhere.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Abp.

  3. #3
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Unionville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    342
    The comments are very interesting to read.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787

    8 Tips Explored 1 by 1

    From the linked articled:

    1.) Open carry is a legal right. Regardless of where personal beliefs may lie, it carries the weight of law and cannot be ignored, pushed aside, or worked around.
    Check.

    2.) Understand that — as with any belief that people feel strongly about — open carry is a form of political protest.
    (cough...) B.S.!

    Open carry is a form of self-defence, combining the two-edged advantages of deterrence and speed of use, both qualities of which are so highly prized that more than 95% of all uniformed law enforcement officers open carry while on duty.

    While the majority will do what is asked of them without a lot of fuss, there will be extremists who are willing to be political martyrs by doing whatever it takes to push their agenda and raise awareness to their cause.
    Equating open carry with "extremism" is itself extremism, as O.C. is NOT extremism. It's legal in 44 of 50 states (88%) by state law, and carries the weight of federal law, as well, based on the "law of the land," our U.S. Constitution. This "extremist" and wrongful allegation is akin to claiming that support of any single leader of our country aka our President is "extremist."

    3.) Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run. One of the universities in Utah apparently tried this approach and it was leaked to the press. Now we run into civil liberties violations, etc.
    Let's change this a bit to read, "Targeting lawful exercise of one's civil rights by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run. One of the universities in Utah apparently tried this approach and it was leaked to the press. Now we run into civil liberties violations, etc"

    The question is, "Who 'ran into' civil liberties violations? Was the individual lawfully exercising their civil liberties, or was it the LEO who violated an individual's civil liberties?

    4.) Know the letter of the law and the interpretations of the law in various districts. Have a written document that can be referred to online or given to those parties interested in them.
    Excellent advice! If more LEOs knew and followed the law with respect to the lawful carry of firearms, we'd have far fewer confrontations.

    5.) Even if you don’t agree with open carry, stay objective and keep your feelings to yourself. It is the behavior of the person — not the gun — that we key on. If they get annoyed and start protesting you, remember that unless they are threatening you with harm, they have a right to voice their opinion, even if they raise their voice at you.
    Also excellent advice. I would similarly advise OCers not to raise their voices to anyone, unless it's to a criminal in the act of committing a crime.

    6.) It still takes time to draw and load the firearm. It can be done in around two seconds for well trained individuals. As with any contact, watch the hands and body language.
    This must be written by someone from UOC-crazy California. I'm down to less than 1/4 of a second.

    7.) Follow good judgment. IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE to treat them as an armed criminal, by all means do so.
    I would add that OC by itself constitutes neither PC nor RAS. If you believe so, then go ahead and arrest us. If it's already been decided in your juridiction, we'll score a substantial lawsuit. If it hasn't we'll take it to the federal level and obtain the same judgement, based on the same suite of cases i.e. precendence previously decided at the federal level in other jurisdictions, and thereby overturn any and all laws to the contrary at your local and state level.

    However, when you make contact with someone carrying openly without good probable cause, the strategy of “when in doubt, prone ‘em out” would not be my first choice. Keep your distance if you can, and ask questions so you can get some indicators of the mental/emotional state of the contact prior to moving in closer.
    Not a bad idea. I would add if they refuse to discuss the issue with you, you're still without either PC or RAS and it's best to let them go about their own darn law-abiding business. The right to keep and bear arms is a right. They're not badgering you about your right to do so. Please don't badger them about their right to do so.

    8.) From a officer safety perspective, at least you KNOW that they are carrying a weapon! That knowledge alone will keep you from becoming complacent. Think of it as an opportunity to practice your officer safety tactics.
    Here's my number one safety tactic: AVOID CONFLICT whenever possible. I, however, am an honest, law-abiding citizen, and my duty is to protect myself and my family from harm. An LEO's duty lies along somewhat different lines. The key point to remember here is that my duty is NOT a threat to your duty, but rather, an adjunct to it, if not its predecessor.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,222
    I posted the following to the LOCAL forum where someone had already cross posted it. Here are my comments-


    Just read the article...a few thoughts....
    He strikes me as someone who tries to mean well but is looking at things from the wrong point of view. Several times he mentioned that Open Carry is a form of political protest. Not for me. I've carried openly and concealed for many years. I carry openly more now thanks to sites such as OCDO and LOCAL where I'm able to read and understand the law and the limits on our ability to OC in certain areas. For me it has nothng to do with politics and after talking to many OCers I believe it's the same for most.
    He also assumes that the OC movement is largly propelled by those living in places where it is difficult to get CCpermits. Actually, places like Virginia and Arizona were some of the early leaders in the beginning of OCDO and the renewed "OC movement". Those States had Shall Issue permits for years.
    He mentions that it takes time to unholster and load a pistol. I assume he is talking about places like Utah or California where the gun has to be unloaded when carried or some other nonsence. This misinforms the readers who are in areas where pistols may be carried Conditon One.
    Let's look at his list of 8 OC tips-
    1-"OC is a legal right."
    Not everywhere. Some States (Florida, Texas, Ark, etc...) restrict OC. More misinformation to the general public reading this article.
    2-"Understand that — as with any belief that people feel strongly about — open carry is a form of political protest."
    Some OCers do so as a political statement but the vast majority state that they simply carry for comfort and to educate the masses of this right. The idea that if the general public sees it and understands it then they won't be freaked out by it.
    3-"Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run."
    Duh, but still we often get word that some departments or individual officers are still harrassing OCers. Keep your recorders running and be aware.
    4- "Know the letter of the law and the interpretations of the law in various districts."
    Good luck with that. LOCAL is doing it's part by contacting various Law Enforcement agencies and personell to get the word out but training is sorely lacking.
    5-"Even if you don’t agree with open carry, stay objective and keep your feelings to yourself."
    Good advice. I don't care if you don't like to see two guys holding hands while walking down the street, a fat girl eatting an ice cream cone or a citizen with a holstered pistol on his belt. None of these things is against the law and I don't really care to hear your opinion about it.
    6-"It still takes time to draw and load the firearm."
    Unless you live in a State like Louisiana where your firearm can be kept locked and loaded while it's holstered on your hip.
    7-"Follow good judgment. IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE to treat them as an armed criminal, by all means do so."
    Great Zeus, I hope all LEOs use good judgement on every part of their job. I would hope this goes without saying but we all know better.
    8-"From a officer safety perspective, at least you KNOW that they are carrying a weapon!"
    There is that. And the bad guys will know it too and that knowledge may be what makes them decide to look for a softer target. Maybe that soccer mom over there with the shopping bags.

    While not perfect, the article gives OC some publicity and does attempt to educate LEOs to the situation even if the author doesn't get things completely right.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    Here are my comments...
    I think all of us are in agreement, here, that mass verbage is a pain in our backsides.

    Tell you what. Break down what you ram-dumped into appropriately, English-sized digestibles, and we'll help you ferret out the details.

    If that's too much for your, I'll give you a number by which I can address your concerns on an individual basis.

    Just read the article...a few thoughts....
    He strikes me as someone who tries to mean well but is looking at things from the wrong point of view. Several times he mentioned that Open Carry is a form of political protest. Not for me. I've carried openly and concealed for many years. I carry openly more now thanks to sites such as OCDO and LOCAL where I'm able to read and understand the law and the limits on our ability to OC in certain areas. For me it has nothng to do with politics and after talking to many OCers I believe it's the same for most.
    He also assumes that the OC movement is largly propelled by those living in places where it is difficult to get CCpermits. Actually, places like Virginia and Arizona were some of the early leaders in the beginning of OCDO and the renewed "OC movement". Those States had Shall Issue permits for years.
    He mentions that it takes time to unholster and load a pistol. I assume he is talking about places like Utah or California where the gun has to be unloaded when carried or some other nonsence. This misinforms the readers who are in areas where pistols may be carried Conditon One.
    Let's look at his list of 8 OC tips-
    1-"OC is a legal right."
    Not everywhere. Some States (Florida, Texas, Ark, etc...) restrict OC. More misinformation to the general public reading this article.
    2-"Understand that — as with any belief that people feel strongly about — open carry is a form of political protest."
    Some OCers do so as a political statement but the vast majority state that they simply carry for comfort and to educate the masses of this right. The idea that if the general public sees it and understands it then they won't be freaked out by it.
    3-"Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run."
    Duh, but still we often get word that some departments or individual officers are still harrassing OCers. Keep your recorders running and be aware.
    4- "Know the letter of the law and the interpretations of the law in various districts."
    Good luck with that. LOCAL is doing it's part by contacting various Law Enforcement agencies and personell to get the word out but training is sorely lacking.
    5-"Even if you don’t agree with open carry, stay objective and keep your feelings to yourself."
    Good advice. I don't care if you don't like to see two guys holding hands while walking down the street, a fat girl eatting an ice cream cone or a citizen with a holstered pistol on his belt. None of these things is against the law and I don't really care to hear your opinion about it.
    6-"It still takes time to draw and load the firearm."
    Unless you live in a State like Louisiana where your firearm can be kept locked and loaded while it's holstered on your hip.
    7-"Follow good judgment. IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE to treat them as an armed criminal, by all means do so."
    Great Zeus, I hope all LEOs use good judgement on every part of their job. I would hope this goes without saying but we all know better.
    8-"From a officer safety perspective, at least you KNOW that they are carrying a weapon!"
    There is that. And the bad guys will know it too and that knowledge may be what makes them decide to look for a softer target. Maybe that soccer mom over there with the shopping bags.

    While not perfect, the article gives OC some publicity and does attempt to educate LEOs to the situation even if the author doesn't get things completely right.[/QUOTE]
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , , Kernersville NC
    Posts
    783
    There is nothing extreme about our constitution. The bed wetters have demonized anyone who takes our constitution for its words. They (the bed wetters) have also been successful at educating (lying) about us extremists to the sheep, the sheep then bleat to other sheep. This is one reason I OC, If that makes me an "extremist" then I will where that badge with honor. All I have to say to the bed wetters. If my OCing offends you, too bad, if our constitution offends you, move !!!!

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    People who think the Constitution is a good idea and demand it be respected are the extremists?

    I think this one debunks itself....
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    It also seems like he is promoting extra scrutiny for gun carriers and hinting that police should strive to find something to charge them with....no he don't get it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It also seems like he is promoting extra scrutiny for gun carriers and hinting that police should strive to find something to charge them with....no he don't get it.
    I don't think he hinted that at all; in fact, he flatly stated that was a bad idea. As for extra scrutiny, who really cares about being scrutinized as long as you're allowed to go about your business unhindered?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •