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Thread: New class about Guns at GMU next fall

  1. #1
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    New class about Guns at GMU next fall

    I signed up for this class for the upcoming fall semester. Sounds interesting.


    CRIM 490: Firearms Law, Policy, and Politics

    The course will explore federal, state and local firearms laws and regulations and how they
    impact the availability and use of firearms; the legal firearms industry and commercial firearms
    supply chain; and how and why firearms are diverted from lawful commerce for criminal
    purposes. We will examine existing firearms enforcement policy and programs to reduce
    firearms-related violent crime, including how enforcement agencies use statistical data and other
    investigative and technical tools to respond to firearms-related crime. We will examine the
    history of firearms and the types of firearms in circulation today, and discuss technical
    similarities and differences and dispel misinformation that frequently appears in print and
    electronic media. We will explore the founding fathers' original intent regarding the second
    amendment and compare and contrast the need for a well-regulated militia with the way the
    public and courts view the amendment today. We will discuss whether guns contribute to more
    or less violent crime. We will explore how politics, the media and special interest groups
    influence the government's ability and willingness to pass firearms legislation and enforce
    firearms laws. We will explore the role of the United States as a small arms supplier to the world
    and the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring
    countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There are so many ways a class like this can be spun -POV and agenda will be the deciding factors. Wonder if GMU/instructor will have the strength of character to prepare an honest, realistic syllabus or if it will be more "indoctrination" to liberal thinking.

    Will be interesting to see.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member cbpeck's Avatar
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    Can I audit this course remotely? lol. It sounds very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    Interesting.

    Any prereqs for this?
    Patriot Web says that the only prereq is CRIM 100. I'm sure you could take it without CRIM 100 though (that class was a joke by the way). And the instructor is still listed as "TBA".
    Last edited by hunter45; 04-29-2011 at 09:02 AM.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Patriot Web says that the only prereq is CRIM 100. I'm sure you could take it without CRIM 100 though (that class was a joke by the way). And the instructor is still listed as "TBA".
    The subject of "crime" on campus is frequently a joke, as reported.

    To the matter of instructor, perhaps Colin Goddard hasn't been able to clear his schedule yet.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The subject of "crime" on campus is frequently a joke, as reported.

    To the matter of instructor, perhaps Colin Goddard hasn't been able to clear his schedule yet.
    Oh God...I would certainly get an F in that class if he was teaching it!

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To the matter of instructor, perhaps Colin Goddard hasn't been able to clear his schedule yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Oh God...I would certainly get an F in that class if he was teaching it!
    This falls under the category of "be careful what your wish for."

    Think I solved the problem of the genie in the bottle granting 3 wishes - we've all pondered what they should be and not have them backfire on us.

    Wish #1 - I want unlimited wishes that shall all be granted in the manner I desire.

    Wish #2 - Unlimited do overs.

    Wish #3 - That this not be a dream

    Jus' my dang luck it was/is.

    **********************
    Back OT - will be very interested in seeing how this class goes.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  8. #8
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    The assumptions in the description nearly guarantee an anti-freedom course

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    I signed up for this class for the upcoming fall semester. Sounds interesting.


    CRIM 490: Firearms Law, Policy, and Politics

    The course will explore federal, state and local firearms laws and regulations and how they
    impact the availability and use of firearms; the legal firearms industry and commercial firearms
    supply chain; and how and why firearms are diverted from lawful commerce for criminal
    purposes. We will examine existing firearms enforcement policy and programs to reduce
    firearms-related violent crime, including how enforcement agencies use statistical data and other
    investigative and technical tools to respond to firearms-related crime. We will examine the
    history of firearms and the types of firearms in circulation today, and discuss technical
    similarities and differences and dispel misinformation that frequently appears in print and
    electronic media. We will explore the founding fathers' original intent regarding the second
    amendment and compare and contrast the need for a well-regulated militia with the way the
    public and courts view the amendment today. We will discuss whether guns contribute to more
    or less violent crime. We will explore how politics, the media and special interest groups
    influence the government's ability and willingness to pass firearms legislation and enforce
    firearms laws. We will explore the role of the United States as a small arms supplier to the world
    and the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring
    countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region.
    Several things in this description indicate assumptions from a very liberal world view.

    "We will examine existing firearms enforcement policy and programs to reduce
    firearms-related violent crime, including how enforcement agencies use statistical data and other
    investigative and technical tools to respond to firearms-related crime. "

    The willingness to separate out crime involving firearms from other crime shows a worldview that crime involving firearms is somehow worse and deserving of more resources than other, equivalent crime.

    "We will explore the founding fathers' original intent regarding the second
    amendment and compare and contrast the need for a well-regulated militia with the way the
    public and courts view the amendment today. "

    The focus on the militia is a prime anti-freedom arguing point, even though it has no bearing on the language of the right itself. Here is the quote from the famous analysis of the Second Amendment by one of the foremost experts on the english language:

    [Schulman: (3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well-regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?;]

    [Copperud:] (3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.


    "the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring
    countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region."

    This implies both that a role exists, and that firearms contribute to violent crime. Both are unproven assumptions that are hotly disputed.
    Last edited by ccwinstructor; 05-07-2011 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Added two line feeds to improve readablity

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    Several things in this description indicate assumptions from a very liberal world view.

    "We will examine existing firearms enforcement policy and programs to reduce
    firearms-related violent crime, including how enforcement agencies use statistical data and other
    investigative and technical tools to respond to firearms-related crime. "

    The willingness to separate out crime involving firearms from other crime shows a worldview that crime involving firearms is somehow worse and deserving of more resources than other, equivalent crime.

    "We will explore the founding fathers' original intent regarding the second
    amendment and compare and contrast the need for a well-regulated militia with the way the
    public and courts view the amendment today. "

    The focus on the militia is a prime anti-freedom arguing point, even though it has no bearing on the language of the right itself. Here is the quote from the famous analysis of the Second Amendment by one of the foremost experts on the english language:

    [Schulman: (3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well-regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?;]

    [Copperud:] (3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.


    "the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring
    countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region."

    This implies both that a role exists, and that firearms contribute to violent crime. Both are unproven assumptions that are hotly disputed.
    A proper response to someone implying that the regular army or national guard are the only way in modern society to "need" a firearm is to point out that niether one is a militia, they are full time and part time national armies. A proper militia, as ment by the founders, is ALL able bodied persons. The conditional part stating the importance has nothing to do with national armies and were possibly a counter to tyranical national armies, but were at least far more important to a FREE state than any national armies. A distinction should also be made between a free state and a state, with the free state being the one that holds the people as the highest power and seeks to protect the people and their freedom not protect the state.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    ...and the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region.

    I hope that you will bring up just HOW those "US-Sourced" firearms are getting to Mexico--under the explicit direction and facilitation of the BATFE...

    IF our own government wasn't engaged in the illegal traffic of firearms to Mexico, then the vast majority of them would never get there.

    Also point out that NONE of the "illegal guns" in Mexico that have been traced back to the US are full auto (Class III). Every single full-auto firearm seized from Mexican drug cartels has been verified as being originally purchased by militaries--in Central and South America and Asia, which means either someone is stealing them from militaries and selling them to the Cartels, or foreign governments are knowingly selling these firearms to the Cartels directly or through third-part arms dealers.

    You need to push back on this class's obviously anti-2A propaganda with the full force of fact that you can muster. If you aren't threatened with being kicked out of the class my mid-terms, I will be voicing my personal disappointment in your performance as a student...

    I would suggest downloading the most recent edition of "GunFacts", and studying it, for the class--it will be a VERY powerful tool against the propaganda. And it's FREE for download, here:

    http://gunfacts.info/


    Good luck, and hone your "Goggle-Fu" over the summer, so you can come to class "armed" with a fat folder of REAL facts.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I hope that you will bring up just HOW those "US-Sourced" firearms are getting to Mexico--under the explicit direction and facilitation of the BATFE...

    IF our own government wasn't engaged in the illegal traffic of firearms to Mexico, then the vast majority of them would never get there.

    Also point out that NONE of the "illegal guns" in Mexico that have been traced back to the US are full auto (Class III). Every single full-auto firearm seized from Mexican drug cartels has been verified as being originally purchased by militaries--in Central and South America and Asia, which means either someone is stealing them from militaries and selling them to the Cartels, or foreign governments are knowingly selling these firearms to the Cartels directly or through third-part arms dealers.

    You need to push back on this class's obviously anti-2A propaganda with the full force of fact that you can muster. If you aren't threatened with being kicked out of the class my mid-terms, I will be voicing my personal disappointment in your performance as a student...

    I would suggest downloading the most recent edition of "GunFacts", and studying it, for the class--it will be a VERY powerful tool against the propaganda. And it's FREE for download, here:

    http://gunfacts.info/


    Good luck, and hone your "Goggle-Fu" over the summer, so you can come to class "armed" with a fat folder of REAL facts.
    That is the exact conclusion to which I have come. The Examiner articles are a true treasure trove of verified information.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
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    I was just looking over the course syllabus. Looks like it's being taught by a retired ATF agent. Guess who one of the guest speakers is for the class? A representative from the Brady Bunch. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be taking this class because I just signed up for a softball league that plays on Thursday nights, which is the same night that the class meets.
    Last edited by hunter45; 08-29-2011 at 09:57 PM.

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    Regular Member BUBB4H's Avatar
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    I'm sitting in the class now. He seems to present an even stance. So far.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUBB4H View Post
    I'm sitting in the class now. He seems to present an even stance. So far.
    Hope he already has tenure - otherwise that may never happen if he does not teach the "party line".

    Will be very interested to see how this class syllabus develops.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member BUBB4H's Avatar
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    After the first day, I have to say, the guy seems pretty middle of the road. He actually made comments such as, "There comes a point where you simply cannot rely solely on the police to rescue you from every situation. They simply cannot be everywhere all the time."

    He's got the permission from GMU some-freakin'-how to bring a number of firearms to class to teach the difference between what's real and what the media hype is about "assault" rifles and "machine guns". I couldn't believe that. So far I'm impressed, seriously. He did show us a video from National Geographic about Guns In America. Looked like a Brady piece to me... =P

    But he seems to be giving both sides equal air time. I'll keep you posted.

  16. #16
    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    the class is closed. Did the professor mention people still being able to get in?
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

    — George Mason

  17. #17
    Regular Member BUBB4H's Avatar
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    No, he didn't mention anything like that. Hopefully it goes well. The first class was very good. I didn't go to the second class because of rain (football...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by karolynrgalarza View Post
    the class is closed. Did the professor mention people still being able to get in?
    If you want to add an easy class, take CRIM 471. It's 10:30am at Prince William on Thursdays with Professor Lawton. It's a really easy and laid back class. We haven't done anything important yet. I'll catch you up to speed if you add it.

  19. #19
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by BUBB4H View Post
    After the first day, I have to say, the guy seems pretty middle of the road. He actually made comments such as, "There comes a point where you simply cannot rely solely on the police to rescue you from every situation. They simply cannot be everywhere all the time."

    He's got the permission from GMU some-freakin'-how to bring a number of firearms to class to teach the difference between what's real and what the media hype is about "assault" rifles and "machine guns". I couldn't believe that. So far I'm impressed, seriously. He did show us a video from National Geographic about Guns In America. Looked like a Brady piece to me... =P

    But he seems to be giving both sides equal air time. I'll keep you posted.

    Just a couple of questions:

    Is there a scheduled visit from a pro-gun entity ?
    How is it graded - pass/fail or letter grade? If pass/fail, testing is fairly innocuous.

    Keep us posted.

  20. #20
    Regular Member BUBB4H's Avatar
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    Yeah there's a pro gun group coming to do a presentation. I can't remember the name of it offhand. It's graded like a regular class. Mid term and final exam. So far no paper assignment, which is good.

  21. #21
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    I seriously doubt this course would be objective!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are so many ways a class like this can be spun -POV and agenda will be the deciding factors. Wonder if GMU/instructor will have the strength of character to prepare an honest, realistic syllabus or if it will be more "indoctrination" to liberal thinking.
    I've spent 13 years post-high school in various forms of academics, both as a student as well as an instructor. I've developed courseware throughout its development cycle, including establishing training goals and learning objectives, writing course descriptions, crafting syllabii, lesson plans, textbooks, workbooks, slides, tests, post-course polls... You name it.

    Give my experience, this course description has some interesting inclusions, as well as some which are more foreboding. Allow me to dissect:

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    CRIM 490: Firearms Law, Policy, and Politics
    It's a Criminology class. Generally speaking, most of the folks taking these courses are headed for a career in law enforcement, justice, or the legal profession.

    The course will explore federal, state and local firearms laws and regulations and how they
    impact the availability and use of firearms; the legal firearms industry and commercial firearms
    supply chain; and how and why firearms are diverted from lawful commerce for criminal
    purposes.
    Sounds ok so far.

    We will examine existing firearms enforcement policy
    What's a "firearms enforcement policy?" Is that where the government enforces our rights to keep and bear firearms? Or the other way around?

    and programs to reduce
    firearms-related violent crime, including how enforcement agencies use statistical data and other
    investigative and technical tools to respond to firearms-related crime.
    Typical LE stuff.

    We will examine the
    history of firearms and the types of firearms in circulation today, and discuss technical
    similarities and differences and dispel misinformation that frequently appears in print and
    electronic media.
    Sounds positive. I hope they dispel the wrongful use of the term "assault weapon" and get back to using proper, technical terms, such as SA, DA, bolt-action, etc.

    We will explore the founding fathers' original intent regarding the second
    amendment
    This actually sounds quite promising!

    and compare and contrast the need for a well-regulated militia with the way the
    public and courts view the amendment today.
    Er, to what end? Hopefully to highlight anti-gun buffoonery.

    We will discuss whether guns contribute to more
    or less violent crime.
    Sounds open-minded, but it might also be a trap into which stats are abused towards the wrong conclusion.

    We will explore how politics, the media and special interest groups
    influence the government's ability and willingness to pass firearms legislation and enforce
    firearms laws.
    Again, sounds objective, but it could go either way.

    We will explore the role of the United States as a small arms supplier to the world
    and the role that U.S.-sourced firearms play in contributing to violent crime in neighboring
    countries such as Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean region.
    I sincerely hope they're talking about the BATF's fiasco. Otherwise, this is the clincher, and casts doubt on the remainder of the course description as being nothing but an attempt to be objective while sucking the students in with anti-gun "statistics" so as to finally demonstrate that the US firearms policy is to blame for the world's problems.

    Grade: C-. Whoever developed this appears to have a hidden, anti-gun agenda.

    Beware...
    Last edited by since9; 10-24-2011 at 06:10 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUBB4H View Post
    But he seems to be giving both sides equal air time. I'll keep you posted.
    I look forward to your updates!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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