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Thread: The NEW SB234: A statutory weapon against CCers

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    The NEW SB234: A statutory weapon against CCers

    As the Florida Sheriff's Association has made abundantly clear, they have been unable to prosecute Accidental Exposure of a Firearm. They could harass, arrest, make you hire a lawyer for hearings, etc... Make your life hard for carrying a gun. But in the end, be unable to actually get you convicted. They've tried like hell, but never managed to.

    Bogdanoff's killer amendment transforms SB234 into a weapon that will allow them to finally secure that prosecution. It does not protect CCers from accidental exposure. It creates subjective language that enables the currently abusive Police policies that can't get traction, to finally have that traction based on an anti-gun Officer's subjective interpretation, or just outright fabrication.

    Bogdanoff's Amendment secures that final step of prosecuting CCers. It does not protect CCers at all. It does entirely the opposite.

    She and her supports can SAY anything they want to the supposed INTENT. An examination of current Police Policies, heavily documented actions, open statements, and a plain reading of her amendment, proves what it will ACTUALLY do.

    If the bill passes as amended, even CC with a Permit in perfectly legal fashion will become unsafe for permit holders to do. Any cop with an agenda, or anti-gun citizen with a chip on their shoulder, will be able to land a legal CCer in jail.

    I hate to say it, but toljaso. I said the LEOs would turn it into a weapon against us. And they did. Not even CC is safe now. This has made the whole of 790.06 utterly useless. They have practically abolished all forms of carry in the State. Only the Rich and Well Connected will be able to carry now, regardless of having a permit or following the law.

    I put off moving out of state in the hopes that this would happen. But I have to look at the timeline now. I don't want to live out the rest of my life with the futile Hope for Change lifestyle. I want to actually live what is left of my life with some degree of freedom. Maybe FL will have OC, but I'll be long dead of old age by the time it happens. This was our best, real chance. It's over.

    No one is more about the fight than I am. But I've been in it for far too long. I've been at war with this State for almost 20 years. Nothing good has ever happened, not even once. It only gets worse and worse. I gotta retire from the war someday. Today is that day. I'm already showing serious signs of "Fight dragons long enough, and you become one." I'm not the man for this job anymore, and it's quite debatable that I ever really was.... ;-)

    I've been shot at, kids kidnapped, house shot full of holes, run down on my motorcycle, arrested, maliciously prosecuted, beaten to a bloody pulp; and all of that multiple times. All of this done to me BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WIPED OUT THIS BILL. It's time to concede that Floriduh is Lost. My only hope now is for the day I get to watch it burn. It is a Police State, and will never be recovered but by outright force and the spilling of blood.

    As 790.06 is currently written, it doesn't address accidental exposure at all. Judges have ruled that accidents are not within the spirit or intent of the law. So, the bogus charges don't stick. We have precedent as our protection.

    With this bill as amended, the LEOs get to add in their own opinion of your intent to determine if the now statutory exception applies to you or not.
    They have made their position on how they intend to abuse this very clear over the past 24 years, and very vocally during committee debates over this bill.

    The bill, as amended, serves no purpose but to expose CCers to more trouble, not protect them from it. And I'm pretty sure that was the game from the beginning.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-27-2011 at 10:10 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Nice talking to all of you throughout this ordeal. Thanks to Stogie and Rich for all their hard work. My anger at statism is unhealthy, especially when it comes to gun rights, so I'll be signing off from the forum for awhile, assuming I don't move to a freer state out of disgust. Peace.
    If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    So much for inalienable and shall not be infringed. We never wanted "exposure" protection. We wanted open carry.
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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    New Jersey with Palm Trees.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
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    Doesn't this stop open carry fishing, camping and hunting as well?
    God Bless America.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick H View Post
    Doesn't this stop open carry fishing, camping and hunting as well?
    I don't think so, but I'm not re-reading the interactions now. Someone else can take my baton, I won't be living in this dump of a state much longer.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member maps761's Avatar
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    It's not a viable bill unless the House and Senate versions are exactly the same. Maybe the tactic to follow is convince our House reps to just refuse to change their version. That would at a minimum kill the whole thing or maybe convince the Senate to kill this amendment.

    Just pondering.
    If this be Treason, then make the most of it. Patrick Henry, May 1765

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    One could but hope, but seeing how things are playing out, and how few of our Politfails have an nads, they'll probably end up changing it to match 234 instead..


  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Whatever the method, it needs to die.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    We need to have an attorney review the amendment and bill as amended. Only if they concur that this gives the police greater authority in harassing permit holders should we throw it out.

    I understand the danger in subjectivity or ambiguity; however, considering the makeup of the Senate, can we do any better in the near future anyways?

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigmalg View Post
    can we do any better in the near future anyways?
    Nope. Floriduh is boned.

    The sooner you live somewhere else, the sooner you can start living the life of a Free Man.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-27-2011 at 05:50 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Lets say they pass 234 in its current state, why cant they just come up with another bill after? Is there a thing that prevents them from doing so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Nope. Floriduh is boned.

    The sooner you live somewhere else, the sooner you can start living the life of a Free Man.
    Exactly my point. So only after careful review of this amendment should we consider throwing the "baby out with the bathwater".

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    As a second point, we should put together "The List" of individuals, representatives, companies that publicly campaigned against open carry.

    1.) Companies should be boycotted (including affiliates and sponsors)
    2.) Senators/Reps should be replaced and/or endorsements removed

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigmalg View Post
    Exactly my point. So only after careful review of this amendment should we consider throwing the "baby out with the bathwater".
    It wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Most of what is left of the bill is stuff we already have.

    We already had parking lots. The contiguous states long gun purchase was unenforcible and vestigial. So, neither of those points matter.

    All the bill does now is give the LEOs a way to get us prosecuted for accidental exposure; the opposite of what it was meant to be.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Evers also sponsored a bill that initially allowed the open carrying of weapons by those with concealed-weapons permits. The bill was amended Wednesday by Sen. Ellyn Bogdanoff, R-Fort Lauderdale, to eliminate the misdemeanor charge in current law for the inadvertent display of a concealed weapon. Bogdanoff said the end product was what the NRA really wanted.

    "The bill as presented by Senator Evers is an open-carry bill. There was a great deal of concern expressed by the retail community," Bogdanoff said. "The amendment is changing the bill to address the concern (about inadvertent exposure) and not going all the way and saying you can wear it in the open, exposed."

    Bogdanoff said the Florida Retail Federation and other previously opposed business interests accepted the amended version.



    Source: Lobbytools & http://floridacapitalnews.com/articl...4280317&theme=
    Last edited by seminoles1999; 04-28-2011 at 06:26 PM.

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    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seminoles1999 View Post
    Evers also sponsored a bill that initially allowed the open carrying of weapons by those with concealed-weapons permits. The bill was amended Wednesday by Sen. Ellyn Bogdanoff, R-Fort Lauderdale, to eliminate the misdemeanor charge in current law for the inadvertent display of a concealed weapon. Bogdanoff said the end product was what the NRA really wanted.

    "The bill as presented by Senator Evers is an open-carry bill. There was a great deal of concern expressed by the retail community," Bogdanoff said. "The amendment is changing the bill to address the concern (about inadvertent exposure) and not going all the way and saying you can wear it in the open, exposed."

    Bogdanoff said the Florida Retail Federation and other previously opposed business interests accepted the amended version.

    Source: http://floridacapitalnews.com/articl...4280317&theme=
    I think the retail association was more influential then the FSA. It sucks either way. The most disappointing thing is the position of the NRA. Their failure & inappropriate compromise on 2A rights in SB234 was deplorable. They will not see another dime of my money and it will go to the GOA. They are supposed to be an un-compromising group. Maybe we can build their rosters..
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

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    So, not only did they remove open carry, BUT, they also made the $1,000,000 fine go down to $100,000, AND NOW $5,000? TALK ABOUT A SLAP ON THE WRIST! What is wrong with these people?!

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    Regular Member rvrctyrngr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    I think the retail association was more influential then the FSA. It sucks either way. The most disappointing thing is the position of the NRA. Their failure & inappropriate compromise on 2A rights in SB234 was deplorable. They will not see another dime of my money and it will go to the GOA. They are supposed to be an un-compromising group. Maybe we can build their rosters..
    The GOA has accomplished what, exactly....ever?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
    The GOA has accomplished what, exactly....ever?
    GOA is a national group, they don't really concentrate at state level.

    Do we know if the NRA is satisfied with the new language? Evers does support intentional open carry, or else that original amendment would never have been introduced, the one with the "level 2" holsters and ID display. I think Hammer arguing for our right to open carry would be powerful. Without any of their support we face a tough road. Texas is doing it, but Florida isn't Texas. Sean said he was drafting a bill that might get the FSA off our backs. Good thought, but I don't see how its possible.

    Bottom line is that the NRA would be a powerful ally. Does Marion Hammer have an email address at USF or NRA? I can't find one. A little evangelism on our part toward her might be in order. The NRA should be promoting open carry at ever turn. There is no more powerful way to reverse the police state and to make the anti-gunners irrelevant. If guns are normed into every day life, I don't see how "gun control" can survive. Right now, they're dirty evil icky things that we have to hide like our private parts. The message the current open carry law in Florida sends is pretty clear: Guns are evil unless the state has them.
    If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
    The GOA has accomplished what, exactly....ever?
    They're not as strong as the NRA I give you that. But, they have pushed pro gun bills without compromise. They have not deviated from true and full 2A rights. Whether it is for the fight against assault weapons ban, the hi cap magazines or any degradation of 2A. Whether you want to carry a 25 or a 44 they support that. NRA supports what they believe they can win. I'm not saying the whole country should boycott the NRA. I just think Florida open carry supporters should send the NRA a message that 2A out ways the NRA desire to claim and tout their victories. The GOA accomplishment do not compare to the NRA but neither does their treasury.

    I'm pissed at the NRA and may be over reacting but I do not agree that the NRA was not at fault for the bad amendment and bill. If you watch the session video you will see Hammer leave the floor just before SB234 was introduced. I believe she did that to meet with Bogdenoff and Evers and she (NRA) caved to Bogdenoff in order to score a useless victory in the name of the NRA. Once the NRA caved to Bogdenoff Evers set on his thumbs knowing the NRA was caving. I’m sure he didn’t want to portray two republicans arguing over the same bill on the senate floor.

    Had the NRA stood their ground to Bogdenoff and faced the possibility of a defeated bill I think the republicans had the votes to pass it without Bogdenoff and her dumb ass amendment. The NRA caved to tout a victory regardless of the bills dangers or intent.

    I find myself repeating myself in multiple threads. Sorry about the soap box..
    Last edited by firedog; 04-28-2011 at 09:17 PM.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    They're not as strong as the NRA I give you that. But, they have pushed pro gun bills without compromise. They have not deviated from true and full 2A rights. Whether it is for the the fight against assault weapons ban, the hi cap magazines or any degradation of 2A. Whether you want to carry a 25 or a 44 they support that. NRA supports what they believe they can win. I'm not saying the whole country should boycott the NRA. I just think Florida open carry supporters should send the NRA a message that 2A out ways the NRA desire to claim and tout their victories. The GOA accomplishment do not compare to the NRA but neither does their treasury.

    I'm pissed at the NRA and may be over reacting but I do not agree that the NRA was not at fault for the bad amendment and bill. If you watch the session video you will see Hammer leave the floor just before SB234 was introduced. I believe she did that to meet with Bogdenoff and Evers and she (NRA) caved to Bogdenoff in order to score a useless victory in the name of the NRA. Once the NRA caved to Bogdenoff Evers set on his thumbs knowing the NRA was caving. Im sure he didnt want to portray too republicans arguing over the same bill on the senate floor.

    Had the NRA stood their ground to Bogdenoff and faced the possibility of a defeated bill I think the republicans had the votes to pass it without Bogdenoff and her dumb ass amendment. The NRA caved to tout a victory regardless of the bills dangers or intent.

    I find myself repeating myself in multiple threads. Sorry about the soap box..
    I mostly agree. The reason I agree is that what we get out of the new SB 234...... is nothing.
    If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    GOA is a national group, they don't really concentrate at state level.

    Do we know if the NRA is satisfied with the new language? Evers does support intentional open carry, or else that original amendment would never have been introduced, the one with the "level 2" holsters and ID display. I think Hammer arguing for our right to open carry would be powerful. Without any of their support we face a tough road. Texas is doing it, but Florida isn't Texas. Sean said he was drafting a bill that might get the FSA off our backs. Good thought, but I don't see how its possible.

    Bottom line is that the NRA would be a powerful ally. Does Marion Hammer have an email address at USF or NRA? I can't find one. A little evangelism on our part toward her might be in order. The NRA should be promoting open carry at ever turn. There is no more powerful way to reverse the police state and to make the anti-gunners irrelevant. If guns are normed into every day life, I don't see how "gun control" can survive. Right now, they're dirty evil icky things that we have to hide like our private parts. The message the current open carry law in Florida sends is pretty clear: Guns are evil unless the state has them.
    Well said, I agree 100%. As long as guns are hidden away anti-gunners keep breeding!

  24. #24
    Regular Member rvrctyrngr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    They're not as strong as the NRA I give you that. But, they have pushed pro gun bills without compromise. They have not deviated from true and full 2A rights. Whether it is for the fight against assault weapons ban, the hi cap magazines or any degradation of 2A. Whether you want to carry a 25 or a 44 they support that. NRA supports what they believe they can win. I'm not saying the whole country should boycott the NRA. I just think Florida open carry supporters should send the NRA a message that 2A out ways the NRA desire to claim and tout their victories. The GOA accomplishment do not compare to the NRA but neither does their treasury.

    I'm pissed at the NRA and may be over reacting but I do not agree that the NRA was not at fault for the bad amendment and bill. If you watch the session video you will see Hammer leave the floor just before SB234 was introduced. I believe she did that to meet with Bogdenoff and Evers and she (NRA) caved to Bogdenoff in order to score a useless victory in the name of the NRA. Once the NRA caved to Bogdenoff Evers set on his thumbs knowing the NRA was caving. Im sure he didnt want to portray two republicans arguing over the same bill on the senate floor.

    Had the NRA stood their ground to Bogdenoff and faced the possibility of a defeated bill I think the republicans had the votes to pass it without Bogdenoff and her dumb ass amendment. The NRA caved to tout a victory regardless of the bills dangers or intent.

    I find myself repeating myself in multiple threads. Sorry about the soap box..
    There is much in your post I agree with, firedog, and I respect the hell out of you saying what you have to say. My point is that the GOA is not a visible force in Florida, though I was a member of that organization for well over a decade. Lack of tangible results gave me pause. The NRA is a visible and powerful force here, even though our agendas may not always coincide. We'd still be fighting for state-wide CC if it were not for them.

    Oh...you saw Ms. Hammer leave the gallery because we were melting her cell phone with text messages trying to save this thing! :

    Support whom you choose to support, but don't burn bridges unnecessarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
    The GOA has accomplished what, exactly....ever?
    One thing they've been very successful at, is giving the NRA a counterpart to point at and say, "See? We're being reasonable!"

    Now, I think the only reasonable gun control is the text of the 2nd Amendment, which is GOA's position as well, but GOA can scare on-the-fence politicians into supporting the NRA's legislation. They find full firearms freedom much too scary!

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