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Thread: State Sen. Mike Green tells teacher/audience "guns are ok in school"... WINNING!

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Exclamation State Sen. Mike Green tells teacher/audience "guns are ok in school"... WINNING!

    http://www.michigansthumb.com/articl...7310474021.txt

    Fair Use excerpt:

    Guns

    One teacher in attendance was concerned about legislation Green sponsored that would allow people to carry concealed weapons in carry-free zones, including schools.

    “If that’s true, are we trying to eliminate class size or what?” the teacher asked, resulting in loud laughter from those in attendance.

    “It’s not funny,” Green replied. “Because a lot of schools have eliminated class size by that. And I can show you school after school after school. What I am saying is somebody, somewhere in a school, ought to have a gun. And everybody in schools say, ‘don’t bring a gun into my school — unless it’s with a police man.’ Well you know what happens when somebody brings a gun into a school illegally, you know what happens? They shoot anybody they see and nobody stops them.”

    Green said municipalities have been cut back so much, there’s not enough police to respond quickly enough to a school shooting. He asked Huron County Sheriff Kelly J. Hanson, who was at Monday’s meeting, how many deputies were out on the road at the time. Hanson said there were three deputies currently working.

    “And if somebody brought a gun into Port Hope, chances are there wouldn’t be anybody there to protect those kids,” Green said. “How would you propose to protect them?”

    The teacher replied there are emergency procedures in place and teachers know what to do with their students.

    “And I’ll tell you what, I would lay down my life for my students, and I don’t need a gun to do it,” she added.

    “I don’t mean to be mean, but they’d shoot you and your student,” Green replied.

    He noted under current Michigan law, anyone can carry a gun in school strapped on its side as long as its visible — guns just cannot be concealed in school.

    “And it’s been that way ever since this state has been a state,” Green said.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    take that, waterford schools
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Anyone made the attorneys for MOC aware of this? It might have a bearing on the current unpleasantness with the Lansing Library....
    Last edited by Bikenut; 04-27-2011 at 07:55 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    not likely, this is hot off the presses. i have notified MOC leadership and will leave it up to them.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 04-27-2011 at 07:46 PM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Thumbs up

    Yes, by all means, PLEASE DO send it to the schools, and the Waterford PD.

    Don't worry, they'll see it.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 04-27-2011 at 11:27 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Sadly, a single lawmaker's opinion will likely carry less weight in court than an AGO
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Sure, but we can't stop until theres no more road.

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    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    "He noted under current Michigan law, anyone can carry a gun in school strapped on its side as long as its visible — guns just cannot be concealed in school."

    “And it’s been that way ever since this state has been a state,” Green said.




    He clearly misspoke, not anyone or everyone is able to Open Carry in a school.
    either he does not know about the GFSZ act of 1995 or he didn't mention that a CPL holder was exempt and could carry in a GFSZ ,just not concealed.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    he either misspoke or cleverly pointed out the un-constitutionality of PFZ
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    he either misspoke or cleverly pointed out the un-constitutionality of PFZ
    Perhaps, or he had someone tell him CPL holders could OC and he then understood that to mean anyone could.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yes, i've emailed him to clarify. that way if he makes reference to OC in schools in the future he will be more clear.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 04-28-2011 at 01:53 PM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    I think he likely misspoke. Thanks for contacting him in case he goofed.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    "He noted under current Michigan law, anyone can carry a gun in school strapped on its side as long as its visible — guns just cannot be concealed in school."

    “And it’s been that way ever since this state has been a state,” Green said.




    He clearly misspoke, not anyone or everyone is able to Open Carry in a school.
    either he does not know about the GFSZ act of 1995 or he didn't mention that a CPL holder was exempt and could carry in a GFSZ ,just not concealed.

    I'm surprised no one seems to agree with my opinion. I posted this months ago, the License to Purchase and Carry is a license and the OC PFZ's do not include schools. IMO we can OC in a school even without a CPL with our registered guns.
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 04-28-2011 at 12:05 PM.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    I wasn't sure that's what you meant. Care to elaborate, I'd like to hear more on this point of view. Perhaps a new thread, so as to not de-rail this one?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    I'm surprised no one seems to agree with my opinion. I posted this months ago, the License to Purchase and Carry is a license and the OC PFZ's do not include schools. IMO we can OC in a school even without a CPL with our registered guns.
    I wouldn't. Many schools, perhaps most schools, have day care centers, many have sports arenas, most have theaters, some have places or worship. Remember that if they have any of these any where on the property, a non CPL holder can't so much as OC in their parking lot.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-28-2011 at 01:12 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Aah, good point.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I wasn't sure that's what you meant. Care to elaborate, I'd like to hear more on this point of view. Perhaps a new thread, so as to not de-rail this one?
    I'm agreeing with Mr. Green in the article that was posted... how is that off topic?
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Not so much off topic, but more deserving of a new one.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I wouldn't. Many schools, perhaps most schools, have day care centers, many have sports arenas, most have theaters, some have places or worship. Remember that even if they have any of these any where on the property, a non CPL holder can't so much as OC in their parking lot.
    I agree with that but you added details about what I posted.



    Schools aren't included in 750.234d http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(dnb...e=mcl-750-234d

    If I'm wrong that's fine but show me the law.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    If I'm wrong that's fine but show me the law.
    Ok, here you go....

    750.237a

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (6) As used in this section:

    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.
    Only two ways for non-police or contracted security to carry a loaded pistol in a school. It must be OC (because 28.425o restricts CC on school property) and you must either have a CPL or permission from the principal.

    So I guess technically anybody can carry on school property...they just have to convince the principal to give them permission.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 04-28-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    But you left off the beginning...


    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.

    Sec. 237a.

    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:



    Then the closest I can find is:



    750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.


    Sec. 226.

    Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.



    or:



    750.227b Carrying or possessing firearm when committing or attempting to commit felony; “law enforcement officer” defined.


    Sec. 227b.

    (1) A person who carries or has in his or her possession a firearm when he or she commits or attempts to commit a felony, except a violation of section 223, section 227, 227a or 230, is guilty of a felony

    OC in and of its self is not a felony.

    What legalese should I be aware of?
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 04-28-2011 at 02:30 PM.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    But you left off the beginning...


    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.

    Sec. 237a.

    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:



    Then the closest I can find is:



    750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.


    Sec. 226.

    Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.



    or:



    750.227b Carrying or possessing firearm when committing or attempting to commit felony; “law enforcement officer” defined.


    Sec. 227b.

    (1) A person who carries or has in his or her possession a firearm when he or she commits or attempts to commit a felony, except a violation of section 223, section 227, 227a or 230, is guilty of a felony

    OC in and of its self is not a felony.

    What legalese should I be aware of?

    Not a felony, but illegal. You forgot this part:


    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (6) As used in this section:

    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-28-2011 at 02:44 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    The teacher said I would give my life for one of my students...and hes like well he'd shoot you and your student...haha...classic.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Thx all for taking through it with me. My thought was if (1) was legal then (2) (3) and (4) wouldn't mater, that was my big error.
    Good to correct Mr. Green.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    What is interesting is that under the Federal Gun Free Zone Act of 1995, if a LEO carries his pistol either openly or concealed, although legal according to MI gun law, would be illegal under Federal Law.
    http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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