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Thread: The NEW SB-234

  1. #1
    Regular Member RRobaldo's Avatar
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    The NEW SB-234

    They've posted the NEW text of SB-234.

    While it is absolutely NOT what we wanted. I believe it is still basically a "good" bill and is a step in the correct direction.


    http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill...illText/e1/PDF

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    It not an open carry bill anymore.

  3. #3
    Regular Member RRobaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    It not an open carry bill anymore.
    No, it's not. And THAT is very disappointing.

    The fact that we NEED a permit AT ALL is disappointing and flies in the face of the 2nd Amendment!

    However, it DOES have SOME good in it.

    1) They're fixing the parking lot loophole, so we will be allowed to park our cars anywhere we want with our weapons in them.

    2) Like it or not. 790.053 is BETTER than it was without the Borg's amendment. It's a FAR CRY from what we wanted, but at least it's not FLAT OUT ILLEGAL to have an accidental show now.

    3) The un-enforcable contiguous state long-gun sales law will be repealed.

    I'm trying to be optimistic. In truth, we really "lost" nothing and we did gain SOME benefit, however slight.

    I'll still mourn the next college girl who gets raped or murdered because she couldn't carry on campus.

    I'll lament over the next mass killing that open-carry COULD have prevented.

    But I refuse to consider ground gained to be a loss. It's just less of a gain than we wanted.

  4. #4
    Regular Member DOGFACE SOLDIER's Avatar
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    Its a worthless bill now....May as well leave it just how it was....tearing my holster apart as i type..

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRobaldo View Post
    No, it's not. And THAT is very disappointing.

    The fact that we NEED a permit AT ALL is disappointing and flies in the face of the 2nd Amendment!

    However, it DOES have SOME good in it.

    1) They're fixing the parking lot loophole, so we will be allowed to park our cars anywhere we want with our weapons in them.

    2) Like it or not. 790.053 is BETTER than it was without the Borg's amendment. It's a FAR CRY from what we wanted, but at least it's not FLAT OUT ILLEGAL to have an accidental show now.

    3) The un-enforcable contiguous state long-gun sales law will be repealed.

    I'm trying to be optimistic. In truth, we really "lost" nothing and we did gain SOME benefit, however slight.

    I'll still mourn the next college girl who gets raped or murdered because she couldn't carry on campus.

    I'll lament over the next mass killing that open-carry COULD have prevented.

    But I refuse to consider ground gained to be a loss. It's just less of a gain than we wanted.
    Yes and no. We have gained something.

    But I believe, not unreasonably, that getting full Open Carry is now impossible for the foreseeable future. We're going to convince these people that OC is a right? LOL! The opportunity was squandered. Watch the House Judiciary Committee Hearing of HB 517. THAT is how this was supposed to be handled. CCers getting in trouble PLUS everyone's RIGHTS being violated.

    Hope I'm wrong but the climb to OC in Florida is now hella steep.
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-27-2011 at 06:59 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member RRobaldo's Avatar
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    I gotta be honest. Although I want & demand my FULL 2nd amendment rights to be restored, if I could just pick ONE thing from SB234 to pass, It would have been Campus Carry first, then Open Carry second.

    Although my college years are WAY behind me, I have kids in college. While I am at least allowed to defend myself with a concealed weapon. THEY are not allowed to defend themselves at all.

    For me, SB234 died 2 months ago.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    i just can't wrap my head around it. How are laws passed everyday throughout the U.S. that are easily unconstitutional?

    How come we let them do this? I mean what else can we do besides vote!? Is it really the politicians who hate america? or the americans who vote them in to represent them? They don't get there by magic. Does America hate America or something?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    i just can't wrap my head around it. How are laws passed everyday throughout the U.S. that are easily unconstitutional?

    How come we let them do this? I mean what else can we do besides vote!? Is it really the politicians who hate america? or the americans who vote them in to represent them? They don't get there by magic. Does America hate America or something?
    The sheeple vote these pukes in. I don't vote unless I'm 100% sure they're worth voting for. No lesser of two evils.
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-27-2011 at 07:15 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  9. #9
    Regular Member RRobaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    i just can't wrap my head around it. How are laws passed everyday throughout the U.S. that are easily unconstitutional?

    How come we let them do this? I mean what else can we do besides vote!? Is it really the politicians who hate america? or the americans who vote them in to represent them? They don't get there by magic. Does America hate America or something?
    Two thoughts here:

    Power corrupts...

    The people who seek office are the very ones least deserving of it.
    Yes, I worry that I may be killed by my own gun...

    But my attacker will have to use it to beat me to death because it will be out of bullets!

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    The addition of subjectivity to the existing statute is a disaster. It does more harm than good. The parts of the bill that are unrelated to OC should be retained, but this subjectivity addition needs to be wiped entirely. We already have precedent that the FSA is unable to make charges stick for accidental exposure. This just gives them a way to throw us in jail when they currently couldn't do it. Not for a lack of trying....

    It does the opposite of protect us from accidental exposure, it creates an unmeasurable and unverifiable ruler to claim that exposure was deliberate and threatening.

    And I'm still stuck with a kel tec as the only gun I can carry. Why bother?

    the only hope we have of turning it around is watch the CCers who get thrown in jail over the next few years and then rebut that they are using this amendment to do the opposite of what it was claimed to be for... They haven't been able to prosecute so far.

    Mark my words, they will now.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-27-2011 at 07:45 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    -removed, wrong post.
    Last edited by j4l; 04-27-2011 at 07:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RRobaldo View Post
    No, it's not. And THAT is very disappointing.

    The fact that we NEED a permit AT ALL is disappointing and flies in the face of the 2nd Amendment!

    However, it DOES have SOME good in it.

    1) They're fixing the parking lot loophole, so we will be allowed to park our cars anywhere we want with our weapons in them.

    2) Like it or not. 790.053 is BETTER than it was without the Borg's amendment. It's a FAR CRY from what we wanted, but at least it's not FLAT OUT ILLEGAL to have an accidental show now.

    3) The un-enforcable contiguous state long-gun sales law will be repealed.

    I'm trying to be optimistic. In truth, we really "lost" nothing and we did gain SOME benefit, however slight.

    I'll still mourn the next college girl who gets raped or murdered because she couldn't carry on campus.

    I'll lament over the next mass killing that open-carry COULD have prevented.

    But I refuse to consider ground gained to be a loss. It's just less of a gain than we wanted.
    1) They're fixing the parking lot loophole, so we will be allowed to park our cars anywhere we want with our weapons in them.
    There never was a parking lot loophole!
    Under state law, there are no locations in the state where it is illegal to have a firearm in your car, in a parking lot. Well, to be honest there are some problematic ones regarding Jails/Prisons (and a couple others contained in FAC, but those will get tossed when the reviced preemption bill is passed), but that is a discussion for another day..Oh, and restircted areas of Seaports (you cannot get in there anyway.)

    Someone, anyone, please tell me of a location in Florida (not Federal property) where one could be arrested based solely on having a gun securely encased in their car, if that person is not otherwise prohibited from possession by State or Federal law.

    People seem to think that 790.251 had something to do with the legality of keeping a gun in your car, it does nothing of the kind.

    Plus this change only applies to CWFL holders and is written is such a way to make it unconctutuionaly vague.

    3) The un-enforcable contiguous state long-gun sales law will be repealed.
    [This is a very, very minor plus, that can be addressed in a another bill.]
    It is easily enforceable, if the feds choose to do so. Out of state FFLs are required to abide by both their state law and the laws of Florida when transferring a long gun to a resident of the state. Therefore they are in violation of Federal law if they transfer a long gun to a Florida Resident in states other than Georgia & Alabama. This one is so completely benign there will be no issue getting it attached to another bill. Plus the impact of it is exceedingly small, it's basically a non-issue.

    So what we ended up with is nothing, but an invitation for further problem in this area. If some can give me an objective definition of "Brief", I'd love to see it. "Inadvertent" and "accidental" are impossible to define as well - one would have to know the state of mind of the person to determine.

    I guarantee you, based on the position of the law enforcement testimony in committee and personal discussions I've had with LEOs this new version of the bill will not change how they operate, period. Folks will still get hassled, and more folks will likely get arrested - "You may beat the wrap, but not the ride!" mentality is alive and well in the LEO community.

    It's bad law, period.
    Last edited by brboyer; 04-27-2011 at 08:11 PM.

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    We should have all expected this, The elected leaders today don't have the GUTS to do anything but kiss the behinds of the LEO and the local government leaders, I don't ever see the elected leaders voting and allowing total open carry in Florida because they are afraid that the Idiots in Law enforcement will cause unjustified shootings and the state will be sued beyond what they can see... So until the ones that want "Open Carry" decide to vote against these idiots in the position to create laws in Florida, We should just shut up and eat what they feed us...

    Get someone with some guts to run and if they don't do what they are asked then replace them...

    I will continue to carry and, I was going to always carry concealed but I liked having the option and now that is gone due to the losers we voted in to run our state...

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    All the bill does now is repeal an unenforcible vestigial law about contiguous state long-gun purchases, and provide LEOs with a way to finally prosecute CCers, not protect them.

    The is a very bad law now. It needs to be scuttled. I'm beginning to wonder if this mess wasn't the plan from the start. Evers didn't try very hard. He compromised our standing precedent of not being able to be prosecuted for accidental exposure in exchange for repealing an unenforcible law that never made any difference anyway?

    We already had all the protection we were ever going to get from accidental exposure. Now we've lost that.

    We already had Parking Lot storage.

    The only truly functional thing the bills does now is give the cops a way to successfully have us prosecuted for accidental exposure. It does the opposite from protect us. And they KNOW it. the more I re-examine the careful choices of words, the more I see Bogdanoff as Dean's puppet. The Retailers/Slavers were just a distraction.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-27-2011 at 08:11 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Dean is a idiot that thinks he is THE LAW and Above the LAW and he thinks he has and maybe he does have the STATE in his palm of his hand and controls it the way he wants it...
    Last edited by mister45; 04-27-2011 at 08:21 PM. Reason: spelling!

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mister45 View Post
    Dena is a idiot that thinks he is THE LAW and Above the LAW and he thinks he has and maybe he does have the STATE in his palm of his hand and controls it the way he wants it...
    And he's right. The Sheriffs have run this State for many decades. Virtually nothing else matters.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    i just can't wrap my head around it. How are laws passed everyday throughout the U.S. that are easily unconstitutional?

    How come we let them do this? I mean what else can we do besides vote!? Is it really the politicians who hate america? or the americans who vote them in to represent them? They don't get there by magic. Does America hate America or something?
    As we all know each of the 3 portions of governement (executive, legislative and judicial) provide a check upon each other. In each case, the people are able to check the power and effect of each of these, not just with votes, but in the jury box as well. What unfortunately has been forgotten over the course of maybe the past 100 years is that the jury has the authority and expectation to not just evaluate violation of written law, but to evaluate the law as one that should be enforced or is one that is even valid (does it go beyond the limits of the state or federal constitutions?).

    Although many judges will now lie to jurors and tell them that they must evaluate violation of the law as described by the judge, this is not true. Prior to the 1880s it was common for judges to explain to jurors that they were expected to evaluate both the alleged violation of the law and the law itself. However, court cases established that it was not necessary for judges to give this information, since these facts were common knowledge and were part of expected education received in the schools. Although the laws ensuring that jurors have the authority to nullify the law have not changed, the nature and trustworthiness of the courts have and you may never be aware of your full responsibility as a juror.

    See www.fija.org for more information.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-27-2011 at 08:27 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    All the bill does now is repeal an unenforcible vestigial law about contiguous state long-gun purchases, and provide LEOs with a way to finally prosecute CCers, not protect them.

    The is a very bad law now. It needs to be scuttled. I'm beginning to wonder if this mess wasn't the plan from the start. Evers didn't try very hard. He compromised our standing precedent of not being able to be prosecuted for accidental exposure in exchange for repealing an unenforcible law that never made any difference anyway?

    We already had all the protection we were ever going to get from accidental exposure. Now we've lost that.

    We already had Parking Lot storage.

    The only truly functional thing the bills does now is give the cops a way to successfully have us prosecuted for accidental exposure. It does the opposite from protect us. And they KNOW it. the more I re-examine the careful choices of words, the more I see Bogdanoff as Dean's puppet. The Retailers/Slavers were just a distraction.
    I have some questions too. And I think I'm going to try and find out if the info isn't forthcoming. I counted at least 20 votes. That's still a defeat, but I think worth the risk of a vote since this bill is now a "non-bill". I recently read an article (can't remember which paper) where the author said the votes were there. Evers' aid said there were 24 votes! I suspect something went down.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Ya, something. They candy-assed out at the last minute is what.
    Screw em, Pink Slips for the whole lot of em, I say. And they should be made to know, in no uncertain terms,to expect it.

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    Regular Member RRobaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
    There never was a parking lot loophole!
    Uhm... Yes there is. Right now, an EMPLOYEE can have his firearm in his vehicle on company property. But a PATRON CANNOT!

    Under the new law, I can have my gun IN my car wherever I go.

    So, Yeah, I would call that a good thing.

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    D a m n!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RRobaldo View Post
    They've posted the NEW text of SB-234.

    While it is absolutely NOT what we wanted. I believe it is still basically a "good" bill and is a step in the correct direction.


    http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill...illText/e1/PDF
    It's a useless pile of words that is still steaming. It does nothing for us, nothing at all. It should be opposed, and Greg Evers should be contacted and asked to pull the bill. I am so pissed off right now that I'm seeing red!~

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    I had to go to work earlier, I see they adopted the amendment. Stabbed in the back by our own.

    Oh well, I really liked Florida but I can't stay here now. Plans will change accordingly.

    For those to whom Florida will always be home, I suggest trying to get this bill voted down, it looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

    BTW is OC while fishing and hunting even still legal if this gets passed? By the wording it looks like it might not be.
    Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIdeon_70 View Post
    It's a useless pile of words that is still steaming. It does nothing for us, nothing at all. It should be opposed, and Greg Evers should be contacted and asked to pull the bill. I am so pissed off right now that I'm seeing red!~
    Oh, it does something for us alright... It does something TO us.

    During their lobbying the LEOs touted their own inability to get any of us prosecuted under their bogus arrests for accidental exposure. We had precedent that at least kept us out of jail.

    The new subjective language created by this amendment hands our heads to them on a silver platter.

    They turned a freedom bill into a weapon against decent citizens. Even with a permit and aboding all laws, you can still go to jail based on a cop or 911 caller lying about your conduct. It's Carte Blanche to fabricate whatever they want. Before, we at least had the precedent... Not now. It's Open Season on CCers. The opposite of what they claimed the amendment's intent was.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  24. #24
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach1chris View Post
    Im sorry guys... I know how down you all must feel, most of you are very angry, but try and look at this in a more positive manner.Before you couldnt expose your weapon at all, now at least it kinda protects you if you happen to display it..

    The only problem that I see in this amendment, is that there is no real way for the officer to tell if it was accidental brife display or not. This again leaves it to the officer to decide if it was or not. I spoke to Mr.Rice and even gave him my own input on this whole thing. He was very sorry to say that sen.Evers wasnt sure if he had enough votes to pass the bill as a all out open carry verson.

    Sen.Evers never agreed with her on anything but didn't want the bill to go to waste. You really have to give it to him for at least trying. That being said, I dont think open carry is over just yet, they are still chipping away at the wall that leads to open carry.

    I understand you guys must be depressed, but as law-abiding and honorable citizens as all of you are... you must obey the law, carry responsibly and set the example..
    I cannot begin to say how I feel. Most of the words would be censored or hateful and I will not share these feelings, even to those who would be sympathetic to them. This bill is ruined, and along with it any hope I had for freedom in this state. Unfortunately, wiithout true open carry, this bill does nothing. All it's provisions are already either in place or not enforcible.
    I will continue to obey the evil, oppressive, statist, fascist laws I live under, but will begin doing everything I can to get out from under the heel of this state, or run for office to rid us of these oppressors.
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RRobaldo View Post
    Uhm... Yes there is. Right now, an EMPLOYEE can have his firearm in his vehicle on company property. But a PATRON CANNOT!

    Under the new law, I can have my gun IN my car wherever I go.

    So, Yeah, I would call that a good thing.
    You are mistaken. Please tell me what statute I will be charged under if I have a securely encased firearm in my car in the mall parking lot.

    ETA: I assume you are referring to 790.251, right? If so here is a link to the statute. Please copy and paste the section I will be charged under and the associated penalty, please.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0790.251.html

    The continued mischaracterization of the actual scope of 790.251 simply amazes me!
    Last edited by brboyer; 04-27-2011 at 08:53 PM.

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