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Thread: Can you open carry in Cary?

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    Regular Member Chris Hamby's Avatar
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    Can you open carry in Cary?

    Ok so im 19(which has nothing to do with my question...lol) i've contacted the C.P.D and spoke to a Lt. Also I contacted the Lt. of the Sherrif's Department. Both told me that it was completely legal for me to do so as long as it wasen't in a Government Building, recreation area etc. I have been OCing for about two days and one L.E.O drove past and didn't say anything, but i'm not sure if he saw my pistol. Have you, or anyone you know open carried in the Town of Cary? Did you have any issues? I've gotten mixed stories about this, some people say there is some kind of ordinance or somthing some say go for it. Tell me your thoughts or experience on the topic
    Thanks and have a blessed night.

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    Not trying to sound like an ass but take two seconds on here and you'll see that you can NOT open carry in Cary.

    And as you'll also find out on this site is you don't ask LEO's about laws. Best to Google or look through this site for what you want to know.
    Last edited by Carry24/7; 04-27-2011 at 10:40 PM.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

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    http://www.townofcary.org/Department...wn_of_Cary.htm


    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=7767583

    "Some cities like Cary have more restrictions on so-called "open carry." In Cary, the town does not allow firearms in public parks or property, but people can carry guns openly on private property or in businesses that don't post signs prohibiting firearms."

    http://randysright.wordpress.com/201...er-in-cary-nc/
    Last edited by hotrod8812; 04-27-2011 at 10:45 PM.

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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in Town-owned parking lots. The ordinance does not allow the open carry of any firearm on public sidewalks or right-of-ways. See Section 22-51(a) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.
    Carry has an ordnance against OC or CC on public properties but you are within your rights to carry on private property.

    Their town ordnance is in conflict with state law, however it is still a ordnance no matter how stupid it is and must be obeyed.

    Short in a long: NO you can not OC in Carry
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    --SCOTT

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    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    Carry has an ordnance against OC or CC on public properties but you are within your rights to carry on private property.
    Regarding CC on sidewalks in Cary. The OC issue will take more work. I never got around to sending an email about that. Maybe somebody should put one together.



    Mr. Clifton,

    I have recently viewed a document about your city ordinances regarding firearms. I am a Concealed Carry permit holder in NC. I would like to clarify one of the comments on your city website in case I find myself In Cary. Your city website states that...
    The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on public sidewalks or greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in public parking lots. See Section 22-51(a) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances

    I have placed the sections in question in red. I am curious how Cary can regulate Concealed Carry on sidewalks or greenways when NC statute 14-415.23 clearly states that you can only prohibit Concealed Carry in Gov. Buildings, their grounds, and parks.

    14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.
    It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)

    I am sure that you are aware that Concealed Carry permit holders have to go through similar background checks as most officers go through. As a group, permit holders are by definition law abiding to even qualify for the permit. I am unsure why there is a problem with allowing permitted citizens to exercise their ability to concealed carry on sidewalks, greenways, and parking lots per applicable state law regarding uniformity of concealed carry regulation.

    Thank you in advance for your time and I look forward to your response.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Thank you for bring this to The Towns attention. To give you an up date the wording has been change on the web site to clear up the sidewalk issue. As for the Greenway it falls under Parks.

    Lieutenant Joe Clifton
    Professional Standards Division
    Cary Police Department

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    Carry has an ordnance against OC or CC on public properties but you are within your rights to carry on private property.

    Their town ordnance is in conflict with state law, however it is still a ordnance no matter how stupid it is and must be obeyed.

    Short in a long: NO you can not OC in Carry
    Since the ordinance is obviously in violation of state preemption, why doesn't it get removed? If somebody is charged under that ordinance it has to be thrown out.

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    Regular Member Chris Hamby's Avatar
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    Yea I called Lt. Clifton the other day. In your response he stated that "The wording has been change on the web site to clear up the sidewalk issue." Does this infact mean that you can carry on sidewalks? I mean would it be unlawfull for me to walk up to the local Cookout with my pistol visable? I think im going to give Mr. Clifton another call. This is ridiculous in the first place. However I do thank you all for your quick responses.

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    Chris, as was stated earlier in the thread. OC is going to take a little more work. The revision was made in regards to permitted CC.

    Chiefjason, thank you so much for taking the initiative to get the CC language updated. As someone who lives right on the border with Cary it has always irked and concerned me that I might have an undesirable interaction with their LEO's.

    However it does not look like any of the language has been updated

    http://www.townofcary.org/Department...wn_of_Cary.htm

    and here

    http://www.amlegal.com/pdffiles/Cary_pdf/code_CH22.pdf (section 22.51 paragraph (d))

    still show CC as being illegal.

    CORRECTION. in the 1st link it does show that you can now CC on public sidewalks...my mistake
    the 2nd link is still troubling since it represents the official town ordinances.
    Last edited by bajadudes; 04-28-2011 at 12:29 PM. Reason: correct mistake
    Preferred weapon is a GBU-10 PavewayII but it's a little heavy for me
    For OC I have a Beretta 90-two Italian 9mm. Mi piace molto
    Beretta pre warnings 92fs stainless steel Italian 9mm
    Beretta 92fs compact USA 9mm
    Beretta Cougar 8000 9mm
    For fun it's an LMT AR-15 w/defender 2000 lower and a slide fire stock

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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Since the ordinance is obviously in violation of state preemption, why doesn't it get removed? If somebody is charged under that ordinance it has to be thrown out.
    The town is not going to throw it out by them-selves, someone would have to challenge it in court and that takes time and money. It would be an interesting test if somone was charged with it weither it would have to be drooped i do not know I am not a lawyer but I do know that parts on the ordnance are in violation of the US Constitution as well as state law

    -----SENT FROM MY MOBILE DEVICE-----
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    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by bajadudes View Post
    CORRECTION. in the 1st link it does show that you can now CC on public sidewalks...my mistake the 2nd link is still troubling since it represents the official town ordinances.
    The ordinances not getting changed bugs me too. It means that someone with an agenda could still charge it as an offense. But that would have to be taken up with city council, likely by a resident. No problem on the email. I was ticked off and felt like setting them straight. I was surprised by the response honestly. But what else could he say?

    Chris, if you call please bring up the case law. Particularly state v Kerner. I had though about laying out the unconstitutional aspects of what they were doing by starting with the Constitution and working through case law. Life got in the way.

    "The Constitution of this state, section 24, art. 1, which is entitled, "Declaration of Rights," provides, "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," adding, "nothing herein contained shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons or prevent the Legislature from enacting penal statutes against said practice." This exception indicates the extent to which the right of the people to bear arms can be restricted; that is, the Legislature can prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons but no further. This constitutional guaranty was construed in State v. Speller, 86 N.C. 697, in which it was held that the distinction was between the "right to keep and bear arms" and the "practice of carrying concealed weapons." The former is a sacred right based upon the experience of the ages in order that the people may be accustomed to bear arms and ready to use them for the protection of their liberties or their country when occasion serves. The provision against carrying them concealed was to prevent assassinations or advantages taken by the lawless; i.e., against the abuse of the privilege."

    http://www.guncite.com/court/state/107se222.html

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    Yes, you can OC in Cary

    Not sure if everyone is misreading the ordinances, but OC is indeed legal in Cary. We have had OC meetings in different restaurants in Cary, I have OC'd many times on my own going shopping. All shopping centers are considered private property as the town of Cary does not own them. Public property would be any place that any person can go and is only regulated by a public official, such as a police officer.

    I have been seen by many officers and none have never said a word. Most of the issues that I have had were from individual store locations that did not want me carrying in their stores, due to making other patrons nervous.

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    The thing I find confusing about Cary is if you can carry in stores or private property but not on roads or sidewalks owned by the city how are you suppose to get from one place or another OCing without breaking the law? I'll just limit my risk and avoid Cary.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

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    Agree boycott Cary. I never stop there for anything.

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    If you really want a thought to ponder, as far as carrying on sidewalks and roads, take a look at most of the street signs, most all of them have the street name & "SRxxxx" on them. SR means State Road! even if you are on the sidewalk you are in the state owned right of way.

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    Regular Member EricDailey X-NRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawmaker View Post
    Agree boycott Cary. I never stop there for anything.
    If you do boycott it's good to make sure they know it and you may have to tell them. Maybe the Chamber of Commerce. I do know that the new Cary gun store NATIONAL GUNS AND GEAR, is a member of the CC and Bruce has to keep up with the local Ordinances. He could probably let them know for you.
    Get a DVR, a Digital Voice Recorder, carry it 24/7. It's cheap, easy and makes a good witness in Court.

    Triangle Open Carry Meetup
    http://www.meetup.com/r/inbound/0/0/...ry/?a=sharetxt
    This is a link for a "gunz r welcome" sign.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/images/unity.gif
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    ....This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

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    There is some misleading information in this thread.

    A: You can OC in Cary all day long with no problems. I do it regularly. 99% of the businesses I visit I drive to, and park in their private parking lots and use their private sidewalks. None of this can be regulated by a municipality.

    B: If you think some part of the Cary code runs against the grain of the state wide preemption then state so in specific terms.

    We've talked about this before and it is not so clear that state wide preemption DOESN'T cover OC on city property.

    This section in particular, copied from our own site, OCDO: "Additionally, under NC Code Chapter 14 � 160A.189, a city may by ordinance ... regulate the DISPLAY of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property."

    So if you think this town code is invalid then you should articulate why "display" does not include holstered OC.

    I've called the AG's office about this specifically. I asked, "Would 'display' cover a rifle in a gun rack driving through town? What about holstered OC?" To which the lady I spoke with simply told me the NC AG's office could not give "personal legal advice" to citizens. A bunch of BS IMO. Who else should I turn to for clarification of any given statute?!?

    I hate it too but...
    Last edited by Smith45acp; 05-05-2011 at 10:16 PM.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    There is some misleading information in this thread.

    A: You can OC in Cary all day long with no problems. I do it regularly. 99% of the businesses I visit I drive to, and park in their private parking lots and use their private sidewalks. None of this can be regulated by a municipality.

    B: If you think some part of the Cary code runs against the grain of the state wide preemption then state so in specific terms.

    We've talked about this before and it is not so clear that state wide preemption DOESN'T cover OC on city property.

    This section in particular, copied from our own site, OCDO: "Additionally, under NC Code Chapter 14 � 160A.189, a city may by ordinance ... regulate the DISPLAY of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property."

    So if you think this town code is invalid then you should articulate why "display" does not include holstered OC.

    I've called the AG's office about this specifically. I asked, "Would 'display' cover a rifle in a gun rack driving through town? What about holstered OC?" To which the lady I spoke with simply told me the NC AG's office could not give "personal legal advice" to citizens. A bunch of BS IMO. Who else should I turn to for clarification of any given statute?!?

    I hate it too but...

    Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly.....but I'm not seeing that subsection...

    NC 14-160

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly.....but I'm not seeing that subsection...

    NC 14-160
    http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina.../160a-189.html

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...s_160a-189.pdf
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    I've called the AG's office about this specifically. I asked, "Would 'display' cover a rifle in a gun rack driving through town? What about holstered OC?" To which the lady I spoke with simply told me the NC AG's office could not give "personal legal advice" to citizens. A bunch of BS IMO. Who else should I turn to for clarification of any given statute?!?

    I hate it too but...

    I bet they'd have plenty to say after the fact. Like why you should not have OC'd, and how the law was constitutional, and how it's your responsibility to know the law, and that you should have been a good boy and followed directions.

    That's a gaping weak spot in our preemption. And without that definition, you can't go any farther.

    I don't like it either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bajadudes View Post
    http://www.townofcary.org/Department...wn_of_Cary.htm

    and here

    http://www.amlegal.com/pdffiles/Cary_pdf/code_CH22.pdf (section 22.51 paragraph (d))

    still show CC as being illegal.

    the 1st link it does shows that you can now CC on public sidewalks.....the 2nd link is still troubling since it represents the official town ordinances.
    Given the above discrepancy i will just avoid the town altogether when carrying in any form. . Don't have the time, money or inclination to challenge them on it.

    At the next town concil meeting if a bunch of us want to speak up I will be there to support it
    Preferred weapon is a GBU-10 PavewayII but it's a little heavy for me
    For OC I have a Beretta 90-two Italian 9mm. Mi piace molto
    Beretta pre warnings 92fs stainless steel Italian 9mm
    Beretta 92fs compact USA 9mm
    Beretta Cougar 8000 9mm
    For fun it's an LMT AR-15 w/defender 2000 lower and a slide fire stock

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    Regular Member EricDailey X-NRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajadudes View Post
    ...

    At the next town council meeting if a bunch of us want to speak up I will be there to support it
    This seems like a good idea in general and I would participate and help get the word around Cary if we arrange an appearance at the council.
    Get a DVR, a Digital Voice Recorder, carry it 24/7. It's cheap, easy and makes a good witness in Court.

    Triangle Open Carry Meetup
    http://www.meetup.com/r/inbound/0/0/...ry/?a=sharetxt
    This is a link for a "gunz r welcome" sign.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/images/unity.gif
    FORUM RULES (14)
    ....This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Chris Hamby's Avatar
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    Count me in too.

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    If you want a good councilman to start with, I would contact Don Frantz. The guy seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders. I think he was one of the main guys to step up and say Cary's "Community Tree" should just be called a damned Christmas Tree!

    http://donfrantz.blogspot.com/

    So I would bring up the issue to him personally, ahead of time, and I bet that A: He would support you, and B: He could help you with the most effective strategy to present in front of council.

    [/my .02]
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bajadudes View Post
    Given the above discrepancy i will just avoid the town altogether when carrying in any form.
    Easy for you but I live and work in Cary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bradburn View Post
    Easy for you but I live and work in Cary
    Frustrating from a Constitutional standpoint, but I find my daily activities in Cary rarely include walking down public streets and sidewalks. So I carry on...
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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