Hb517..

Let me put it another way-maybe this is easier to grasp: who knows?

Your my employer. I asked,and all but begged you to hire me. I convinced you I have the skills it takes to sell/create/whatever your product or service is.
For months I flooded you mail box, your email in-box, and rang your phone off the hook,trying to convince you I'm the guy to hire.
So,eventually you agree,and hire me.
1st couple of weeks a make a good show of it. I go through all the right motions- customer-service is top-notch,sales/productivity is up,sales/profits are suddenly soaring.
Then, the next few weeks I totally slack off. I come in to work maybe 2 of the 5 days Im scheduled to do so. When I do, I come in late, leave early,and spend most of the time in-between on some kind of break,if Im even awake.
Now, profits are down, customers are getting irate, products/services are not being delivered as before,and half-assed when they are delivered.
Customers are trampling one another in their hurry to find another provider.
So you come to me and tell me" hey, I hired you to do a job,you obviously have the ability to do so-get to it"
To which I just nod and smile,and tell you no worries,everything's gonna be just fine...
Then I go back to my nap.

A couple of weeks later, you come to me with the same complaint. This time I say,ya know, I'll try to improve-in the meantime, how about a promotion? More pay? Better benefits?
You shake your head in frustration and go back to your office-wondering if ever hiring me was even such a great idea to begin with..
Right after you leave,however, another "customer" comes to me.
Ya know what? Ignore him, screw him. Here's $50, go back to sleep or something.Blow him off next time he comes to you.

A few weeks later-you come back yet again.Now with things on the verge of collapsing because biz is at an all-time low,as a result of my "work".
You scold me again, and I blow you off again. Biz goes further into the crapper.


Now, what do you do? Keep me around? Promote me to even more responsibility/power?
Or do you send my ass back to the street faster than I can say OMG what happened?

brboyer said:

That is why the NRA is so effective when they go all out on one of their priorities. We need to convince them that this is what they should focus on in Florida. And again, angry, threatening e-mails to them are going to end up in the circular files too.

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Unified Sportsmen of Florida
PO BOX 1387
Tallahassee, Florida 32302

If the NRA successfully promotes OC, it's a death blow to the enemy. To their credit they have used it to get Constitutional carry in 4 states the last two years. From their alerts: "A law abiding citizen does not suddenly turn into a criminal by putting on a jacket." But that's all they've done. We live in the hottest state, we deserve our rights. Florida NRA members should demand it be a priority.

What else do they have left here besides the OC ban? Campus carry, bar carry, 3 day waiting period. Minor inconveniences. Self defense laws are the gold standard. No AWB, no Class III regs. We need to politely tell them that OC has been on the back burner long enough. Florida Carry needs to get as many members and fishing events as possible to lobby the NRA!!

brboyer said:

You admit that

It's really quite simple. You do not know what happened for the events to transpire as they did. Then you make these grandiose accusations based on nothing more than an admittedly brief public exposure during committee meetings/votes. 95% of politics is done behind closed doors, it's not right, but it is a fact.

The nature of politics will likely never change, and it will certainly never change because of angry, threatening, nut-case e-mails.

For the most part, it's about money. There may be a few altruistic souls in politics, but they never last long. The priorities are re-election and election to a better post with more ability to get more money. The people with the most money convey the most power. That is why the NRA is so effective when they go all out on one of their priorities. We need to convince them that this is what they should focus on in Florida. And again, angry, threatening e-mails to them are going to end up in the circular files too.

We must work from within the system to effect change.

Click to expand...

OK for the first part you stated "You do not know what happened for the events to transpire as they did - 95% of politics is done behind closed doors, it's not right, but it is a fact." Both those statements are not "right". Somebody knows what went on behind those closed doors and most of the time its the people taking our money to promote our desires. When they fail to do that then they no longer deserve our support or our money. If they have an agenda that differs from our desires they should relay that to us and not keep us in the dark with lies.

I confirm that with your second statement "For the most part, it's about money".

"Then you make these grandiose accusations based on nothing more than an admittedly brief public exposure during committee meetings/votes." You bet'ya. That's why there are TV cameras in the room. Their positions are supposed to be seen, heard, and recorded. Those that present grandiose presentations for the purpose of drumming up support for stuff they never intended to follow through with are frauds. The senate committee members and the NRA did exactly that. They perpetrated a fraud on their constituents & members knowing full well they never intended to include OC in a bill titled "Open Carry". Even the title of the bill was bullsh*t and they knew it. I hope Florida Carry didn't know it before hand and the fact that they didn't leave questions as to their ability. I am trying real hard not to criticize Florida Carry but this mild, meek acceptance of this deception is weighting on me.

I donate money to people I think are truthful and working for what they claim to be working for. Now I have to reassess my contribution priorities. It is obviously not the NRA and I feel bad about that. They've done spectacular things but this is the first time I have ever felt deceived by them and I simply cannot get that out of my head. The NRA needs to demonstrate to me that they are truly 2A supporters. And I don’t mean portions of 2A that they feel are priorities and are easy winners. I mean the entire second amendment as it was intended. They had SB234 and they caved for the easy win..

Please help me understand this "fishing event" concept.
Not trying to be a jerk,but..Im trying to grasp the effect.
Im you,me, and 12 other guys are standing around somewhere with a pistol on our hip (in a place/situation where it's already legal to do so) a fishing pole in hand, and being eaten alive by mosquittoes and gnats, who else is around to see/hear this other than perhaps a couple of local hicks? Most of whom are probably already inclined to agree with us anyway?
Isnt that sort of preaching to the choir? Or is the media invited,and perhaps an NRA rep will just happen to drive by and say "oooh lookie, a gathering of armed-to-the-teeth fishermen!" wtf,over?

"That's why there are TV cameras in the room. Their positions are supposed to be seen, heard, and recorded. Those that present grandiose presentations for the purpose of drumming up support for stuff they never intended to follow through with are frauds. The senate committee members and the NRA did exactly that. "

This =100% concur. It's gonna take a lot of fast,fancy-talking to convince me otherwise.


" I am trying real hard not to criticize Florida Carry but this mild, meek acceptance of this deception is weighting on me. "

And this. It is giving me considerable pause.Especially since hearing all this "hang-on,take it easy,dont get angry" bit. I dont go so far as to say anything deliberate or decietful was at play here.

But...the timid "take it in the rear,and thank them for it" response has me very very concerned. The Senators and the House, and the rest of the known opposition I can already see/expect it from. From those carrying the diplomatic torch in this matter though..
For some time we got the pep-talks, and the "work the phones and e-mails and contact so and so" thing. And we complied. Nice, polite,etc. That approach did not work.
I dont blame Florida Carry for that,dont get me wrong there. But, to suggest the same approach,on the same folks.....see the Wall....

j4l said:

Please help me understand this "fishing event" concept.
Not trying to be a jerk,but..Im trying to grasp the effect.
Im you,me, and 12 other guys are standing around somewhere with a pistol on our hip (in a place/situation where it's already legal to do so) a fishing pole in hand, and being eaten alive by mosquittoes and gnats, who else is around to see/hear this other than perhaps a couple of local hicks? Most of whom are probably already inclined to agree with us anyway?
Isnt that sort of preaching to the choir? Or is the media invited,and perhaps an NRA rep will just happen to drive by and say "oooh lookie, a gathering of armed-to-the-teeth fishermen!" wtf,over?

Click to expand...

I have no problem with the guys doing it. It shows that a bunch of OC armed guys are not a threat and maybe that is effective. I don’t think it’s really accomplishing anything spectacular but it does make the members feel like they’re doing “something”. Last time they did get press coverage and they had Senator Altman present in Melbourne so I guess it was effective to a point, but he is the choir as you put it. I was on duty for the last one but I’m game to participate in the next one. Every little effort helps but we need stronger activities in the future and put our pressures on the NRA to back us completely.

j4l said:

"The nature of politics will likely never change"

Ah, and there's NO reason that has to be/should be accepted as some kind of "norm" that we just shrug off. It can very well change, if the practicioners of such methods are made fully aware (at the polls) that there is a flip side to selling out/betraying the voters today,in favor of a couple of bucks in their campaign coffers tommorow.
Send that message often enough, and clearly enough,and I'm sure at least some of them will eventually "GET IT".

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I live in the real world. The nature of politics will never change, except for very isolated, short lived exceptions - it's been that way for centuries.

Gun owners make up, what, something like 20% of the population? Then maybe 10% ant's? The remaining 70% really don't care. They are more worried about unemployment, feeding their children, affording gas for their cars, and keeping a roof over their heads.

The single issue (2A) voter is a rare find. Statistically insignificant, I dare say. To be honest, the crazy nut-case single issue voter is not worth a politician's time to even acknowledge, let alone consider their thoughts on the topic.

brboyer said:

Sorry, but I live in the real world. The nature of politics will never change, except for very isolated, short lived exceptions - it's been that way for centuries.

Gun owners make up, what, something like 20% of the population? Then maybe 10% ant's? The remaining 70% really don't care. They are more worried about unemployment, feeding their children, affording gas for their cars, and keeping a roof over their heads.

The single issue (2A) voter is a rare find. Statistically insignificant, I dare say. To be honest, the crazy nut-case single issue voter is not worth a politician's time to even acknowledge, let alone consider their thoughts on the topic.

Click to expand...

Gunowners are 50%.

brboyer said:

Sorry, but I live in the real world. The nature of politics will never change, except for very isolated, short lived exceptions - it's been that way for centuries.

Gun owners make up, what, something like 20% of the population? Then maybe 10% ant's? The remaining 70% really don't care. They are more worried about unemployment, feeding their children, affording gas for their cars, and keeping a roof over their heads.

The single issue (2A) voter is a rare find. Statistically insignificant, I dare say. To be honest, the crazy nut-case single issue voter is not worth a politician's time to even acknowledge, let alone consider their thoughts on the topic.

Click to expand...

And this is opposed to say...I dunno. The one or two people in the State employed by some un-named Bedding Materials manufacturer? Help me get my head around that.
Did Martha Stewart come on down to Florida and risk a few bug bites, and possibly accidental exposure to "cammo pattern" flatware at Gander Mountain -to lobby our Senators to draft a bill-go through all the damned commities/hearings/readings, and then actually vote it into law?

What percentage of single-issue voters do you guess managed to get that one in and passed? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The excuse falls flat. And who's saying anything about single-issues? This happens to be the Open Carry forum, and the particular issue in discussion here-in this isolated forum-is what it's about. One cant use that lame-duck excuse,however narrow-focused this forum might be.

We REALLY need to stop making excuses for these folks,and simply take (from the bend over,grabbing-ankles position) their weak excuses, for not getting things done. The apologists/appeasers amongst us are becomming as much a barrier to our rights as the politicians, it seems.

brboyer said:

Sorry, but I live in the real world. The nature of politics will never change, except for very isolated, short lived exceptions - it's been that way for centuries.

Gun owners make up, what, something like 20% of the population? Then maybe 10% ant's? The remaining 70% really don't care. They are more worried about unemployment, feeding their children, affording gas for their cars, and keeping a roof over their heads.

The single issue (2A) voter is a rare find. Statistically insignificant, I dare say. To be honest, the crazy nut-case single issue voter is not worth a politician's time to even acknowledge, let alone consider their thoughts on the topic.

Click to expand...

Politicians fear very few things. They fear negative information during their campaign. They fear an ever growing support group for their opponent and anyone willing to spend money to campaign against them. If they don’t think you will do it because they have something you want they will never fear nor respect you as a group.

Gun owners even at 20% can be a driving force if they are organized correctly. If the politicians believe you will lead a campaign against them they will listen to you and not bullsh*t you behind closed doors or in committee.

Before I call it a day,head home from the office, and pour myself a nice,tall glass of Jameson's, let me ask this final question of ALL of you.

Can a single one of you provide for us a simple,sound,rational, or even remotely logical reason why not a single one of these folks in the Senate or the House cannot just walk down the hall, retrieve their manhood from the jar on Bog's book case, and say
"Ya know, the citizens of this state have actively been denied a constitutional RIGHT for a long time. A RIGHT they should not have had taken from them to begin with.We need to put that to rights." And go forth and get it done.

Can any of you-especially those of you who have taken to conversing with these folks directly-explain to me why they can-with a totally straight face-tell you that such a thing cannot/will not be done. WITHOUT weak,limp,timid excuses about other folks being too squeemish or uncomfy with our citizens having this right.

Because,when you boil it all down, it really IS that simple. It really doesnt need to be explained or excused to death by any other means.

firedog said:

Politicians fear very few things. They fear negative information during their campaign. They fear an ever growing support group for their opponent and anyone willing to spend money to campaign against them. If they don’t think you will do it because they have something you want they will never fear nor respect you as a group.

Gun owners even at 20% can be a driving force if they are organized correctly. If the politicians believe you will lead a campaign against them they will listen to you and not bullsh*t you behind closed doors or in committee.

Click to expand...

That is exactly what I've been trying to say. Angry, chest thumping, crazy nut-job posturing on a gun-rights forum, or e-mail, or letter writing is not going to make it happen. In fact it will have the exact opposite effect.

j4l said:

And this is opposed to say...I dunno. The one or two people in the State employed by some un-named Bedding Materials manufacturer? Help me get my head around that.
Did Martha Stewart come on down to Florida and risk a few bug bites, and possibly accidental exposure to "cammo pattern" flatware at Gander Mountain -to lobby our Senators to draft a bill-go through all the damned commities/hearings/readings, and then actually vote it into law?

What percentage of single-issue voters do you guess managed to get that one in and passed? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The excuse falls flat. And who's saying anything about single-issues? This happens to be the Open Carry forum, and the particular issue in discussion here-in this isolated forum-is what it's about. One cant use that lame-duck excuse,however narrow-focused this forum might be.

We REALLY need to stop making excuses for these folks,and simply take (from the bend over,grabbing-ankles position) their weak excuses, for not getting things done. The apologists/appeasers amongst us are becomming as much a barrier to our rights as the politicians, it seems.

Click to expand...

I don't know anything about the bill, but don't think there was any opposition from the FSA or FRF.

Originally Posted by firedog
Politicians fear very few things. They fear negative information during their campaign. They fear an ever growing support group for their opponent and anyone willing to spend money to campaign against them. If they don’t think you will do it because they have something you want they will never fear nor respect you as a group.

Gun owners even at 20% can be a driving force if they are organized correctly. If the politicians believe you will lead a campaign against them they will listen to you and not bullsh*t you behind closed doors or in committee.

Click to expand...

brboyer said:

That is exactly what I've been trying to say. Angry, chest thumping, crazy nut-job posturing on a gun-rights forum, or e-mail, or letter writing is not going to make it happen. In fact it will have the exact opposite effect.

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They do not fear Florida Carry and they colluded with the NRA. They do not fear Florida Carry because they are too “relaxed” and advising their members to “take it easy”. Anybody that stands up in opposition to the deceit is suddenly a crazy nut-job. Gun owners do not have the right to be angry when they are deceived because they will be labeled as and “angry, chest thumping, crazy nut-job posturing” persons that are ungrateful for what they got, which was nothing.

Sorry sir, I cannot concur with that. The Senate and the NRA needs to be made aware that we are indeed angry and that we indeed hold them accountable for their deceit. We are calm but not passive. We are demanding but not threatening. We have resolve and we will not be deceived again. We are at this time in search of their replacement. We will continue to support them until such time as their replacements are found. If they want us to support them in their futures they must produce results that are beneficial to our agenda and they must do it now. Not in 24 years, not in 3 years but now! Our time is as important as theirs and if they do not produce results we will not waste ours on them as they refused to tell us the truth. It is their turn to concede.

firedog said:

They do not fear Florida Carry and they colluded with the NRA. They do not fear Florida Carry because they are too “relaxed” and advising their members to “take it easy”. Anybody that stands up in opposition to the deceit is suddenly a crazy nut-job. Gun owners do not have the right to be angry when they are deceived because they will be labeled as and “angry, chest thumping, crazy nut-job posturing” persons that are ungrateful for what they got, which was nothing.

Sorry sir, I cannot concur with that. The Senate and the NRA needs to be made aware that we are indeed angry and that we indeed hold them accountable for their deceit. We are calm but not passive. We are demanding but not threatening. We have resolve and we will not be deceived again. We are at this time in search of their replacement. We will continue to support them until such time as their replacements are found. If they want us to support them in their futures they must produce results that are beneficial to our agenda and they must do it now. Not in 24 years, not in 3 years but now! Our time is as important as theirs and if they do not produce results we will not waste ours on them as they refused to tell us the truth. It is their turn to concede.

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I understand the anger, the frustration, the disappointment, it's just not wise to let it drive you to making irrational statements. Just look at some of the vitriol posted all over the forum. No one is going to respond to that, just that simple.

Calm reasoned discussion is the proper action to take. One or ten angry people 'demanding' anything from a legislature will simply be ignored. It takes an organized effort.

Florida Carry does not strike fear into the hearts of the Florida Legislature, yet. It has only been organized for a few months. It will take a organization with many thousands of members to achieve that. And it takes money to lobby, perform candidate searches, assist on campaigns, etc.

UPDATE! ON HB 517

Last Event: Added to Second Reading Calendar on Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:54 PM

Source: http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=45327

seminoles1999 said:

UPDATE! ON HB 517

Last Event: Added to Second Reading Calendar on Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:54 PM

Source: http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=45327

Click to expand...

This will be worth watching... either way it's gonna be epic:
spineless surrender to the senate
or a courageous act of defiance for what the House stands for, risk destroying the senate's worthless pet project version of 234 by only passing along a clean-OC 517...

~*'Phoenix'*~ said:

This will be worth watching... either way it's gonna be epic:
spineless surrender to the senate
or a courageous act of defiance for what the House stands for, risk destroying the senate's worthless pet project version of 234 by only passing along a clean-OC 517...

Click to expand...

Then it would still have to go to the Senate though no?

77zach said:

Gunowners are 50%.

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I think even that was quoted a while ago. Since Obama took office gun sales (and prices) have continued to skyrocket (along with mags, accessories, and ammo). Add all the new people just getting on the CWFL bandwagon by the thousands (I think there've been +100,000 active CWFL's in the state even since I got mine 1 1/2 years ago)..

I hardly know anyone who doesn't own a gun. Most of the rest like them or are curious.
{Ok, that's maybe an exageration, but only because many of the people I'm acquainted with are students/faculty at an fantastically liberal south florida university. But even about 50% of them own guns, and still most of the rest are curious or like them}

Really, the "Guns are evil ban 'em all!" whackjob anti's have lost their crowd.
Most of the country may well still be sheep, but they're sheep who are tired of the Brady bunch drivel, and even the most ignorant have begun to realize no gun control law they've passed has ever made them safer. It's been a downhill slope, and it's hit the bottom of what Americans are willing to tolerate.
Our turn...

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

Then it would still have to go to the Senate though no?

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They'd have what's called a "Conference Committee" both meet and try to work out a compromise they can agree on, then put it back for repeat floor votes. I doubt there's time for it this session though. I'm just saying, if they pass it as is, there's a tiny little chance they could require the senate to meet them much much closer to the OC version than the danger-even-to-CC version, or at the very least refuse to pass a no-OC version and send a clear message to the senate and the citizens of Florida that they will stand up for the people's right.