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Guns and Alcohol, Revisited

user

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So, I'm participating in a "listserv" as a member of the Virginia Trial Lawyers' Association, and the subject of carrying firearms while intoxicated came up.

One guy (David A. Mckelvey) said,
You have never been allowed to consume alcohol and carry concealed. You have to remain sober while in the bar with a gun.

To which I responded,
Actually, you can't be a concealed handgun permittee and be intoxicated while carrying. § 18.2-308(J1). You can't even drink an alcoholic beverage at a restaurant if you're carrying a concealed handgun, unless you're a law enforcement officer (the "drunken cop" exception), according to paragraph J3. You also can't go hunting with firearms while intoxicated. § 18.2-285. But as long as you're not a concealed carry permittee or hunting at the time, it's perfectly legal to be drunk as a skunk while openly carrying. Of course, you may run afoul of § 18.2-388 ("Profane swearing and intoxication in public..."), but that's just a class four misdemeanor, and has nothing to
do with carrying a dangerous instrument while in a state of impaired judgment.

Legislative change suggestion: eliminate paragraphs J1 and J3 from 18.2-308 and create a new statute simply prohibiting the carrying of a loaded firearm while intoxicated. That simple. I don't care whether the person is in the
privacy of his own home, no one should be hauling around a loaded gun while he's drunk. Period. Exactly the same problem as DUI. I do not see this as offensive to Article I Section 13 of the Va. Const. because the gist of the offense is intoxication/impaired judgment while in possession of an inherently dangerous instrumentality, not the carrying of the firearm per se. (Anyone who wants to be vigilant about self defense ought not be drunk, anyway.) I assume, also, that we all know that the definition of "intoxication" does not rely on a "legal limit" (which really only creates a
presumption of intoxication).

To which another member (Lloyd Snook) observed,
If you introduced a bill like that, you'd get howls from the hunters who hunt with a hip flask. One Virginia legislator in 2006 fell out of his tree stand and broke a number of bones. Why this experienced hunter should have fallen out of the tree stand never got reported, but those in the know know. Kinda reminds me of Bill Fears, who, when he was the State Senator from Accomac, spoke against a bill that would have made it illegal to drive while carrying an open container of alcohol by arguing that "it would take all the fun out of drinking and driving."

Question for you: what do y'all think of my "legislative proposal"?
(One goal of my proposal is the simplification of 18.2-308.)
 

peter nap

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I think it's impossible to legislate everything User.
Most people know I'm not a fan of drinking any amount while handling guns...but some do it quite responsibly.

There was a law proposed in New York City that would make it unlawful for Cab Drivers to be rude.

Some things need to be left t society to regulate rather than the legal system.

I agree with Wylde. There are too many laws already.
 
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Marco

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to simplify things why not just treat it the same as for vehicle have alegal limit akin to what is for vehicles and go from there.

NV driving legal limit .08
NV firearms legal limit is .10

I think I got that right as I'm imn th emind of something else and can't confirm check now.
 

JamesCanby

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Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
So, I'm participating in a "listserv" as a member of the Virginia Trial Lawyers' Association, and the subject of carrying firearms while intoxicated came up.

One guy (David A. Mckelvey) said,

To which I responded,

To which another member (Lloyd Snook) observed,

Question for you: what do y'all think of my "legislative proposal"?
(One goal of my proposal is the simplification of 18.2-308.)

It makes sense to me that exceeding the BAC limits that would make you DUI could be applied to carrying. By doing so one could CC in a restaurant and have a glass or two of wine or a beer with dinner and still be 'sober' insofar as the law is concerned. Even so, it still might not be prudent to mix alcohol while carrying either CC or OC.
 

VW_Factor

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While these are only my thoughts, and some may think them to be irresponsible..

Cars are extremely deadly weapons as well, they are simply used differently. There are DUI laws that allow smaller amounts of alcohol to be consumed while still being able to technically be legal while operating a vehicle.. Why not the same for carrying?

Really, what this gets too is a point where the individual cannot handle themselves responsibly while drinking any amount, and I am sure what people are worried about are those who are considered "angry drunks or drinkers". Does this need a law? Perhaps. However this is going to get into some situations where it may be applied in legal self defense matters, where it doesn't belong.
 

The Wolfhound

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Henrico, Virginia, USA
Not bad but.....

It all boils down to how the word INTOXICATED is interpreted. One "adult beverage", especially with a meal, usually does not meet the criteria for intoxicated. "Sloppy drunk" can be universally recognized. Drunks with cars?=bad idea. Drunks with guns? still=bad idea. Your concept does push in the direction of individual liberty and individual responcibility, both of which I favor. Would you distinquish between LOADED or UNLOADED firearms? A drunk on the road with a car is a threat to society, similarly a drunk with a LOADED gun is a threat to society. An UNLOADED gun (don't go to the 4 rules, Damnit) is an inert object of no particular threat, regardless of the condition of its posessor.
 
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Chaingun81

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There are too many laws as is and they create too many way for anti-gunners to abuse gun owners.

First, I'd be against any limitations on carry inside home whatsoever. It's your home, and it's your right. Why a homeowner has to chose between being able to defend himself or his family and having a few drinks with dinner? This is dumb.

As for carrying outside of home, I'm fine with intoxication clause, but it needs more definition. The way it is in VA right now (i. e. presumptive intoxiation legal limit) creates yet another loophole to charge and sentence people based on nothing, but cops' and judges' personal feelings toward alcohol, firearms or combination of thereof.

I like the NV way - if you are below the legal limit, you are free to go. It should be the same for cars and guns as far as you are out in public, with no limitations whatsoever when you are at home, hotel room, rented house, etc.

As we always tell antigunners, murder is already highly illegal - what other laws do you want?
 

user

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Virginia doesn't actually have a "legal limit" for DUI. What the blood alcohol percentage does is create a presumption - i.e., if one has more than .08 alcohol in his blood then one is presumed to be intoxicated. But intoxication can be proved by other evidence, slurred speech, impaired co-ordination, etc. I've always thought it a problem in some courts that if the defendant "looked drunk" to the cop, then that's pretty much conclusive on the issue of intoxication. But there's no question that "intoxication" means more than a glass of wine with dinner, or even a couple of beers during the ball game.

So I agree that that's a standard that could use some definition.

But my purpose is basically to get some of the stuff out of 18.2-308, which is too long and too complicated. Not sure I don't agree with total repeal of the statute, but as a practical matter, that ain't gonna happen.

As to what one does in the privacy of his own home, well, you can't be in possession of heroin in the privacy of your own home, and it's not too long ago that people were convicted of "the unspeakable crime against nature" for acts committed in the privacy of their bedroom. And what worries me about drunk people in the privacy of their own home accidentally discharging a firearm through, say, a shared wall in a townhouse project, or through one of their own kids. There are people for whom there really is no risk - Peter Nap while he's out in his tobacco barn, out in the middle of nowhere, for example. But there are also a lot of people, most people, in fact, huddled together in cities like Alexandria and Norfolk where what one does with a firearm in the privacy of his own home could well affect people outside of his curtilage.
 
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riverrat10k

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There are too many laws as is and they create too many way for anti-gunners to abuse gun owners.

................................

As we always tell antigunners, murder is already highly illegal - what other laws do you want?

My feelings. If a politician ran on a platform of removing as many laws as possible from the books, he would get my vote.
 

peter nap

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My feelings. If a politician ran on a platform of removing as many laws as possible from the books, he would get my vote.

Me too but one of the things I like about User is he gives you two answers. The right one and the one that works in the real world.

As he pointed out, he's looking at doing something that can be passed. That's always a sticking point.

Members of the General Assembly vote a certain way for a lot of reasons. Common sense isn't ever one of them as far as I can tell.

One may vote for something because VCDL will give them votes or vote against something because Old Virginia will give them votes.

Some vote because the lobby has a lot of money to throw around.
Frank Hargrove would vote to put cameras in every bedroom if the Insurance Lobby said so.

Finding the balance that will pass Committee, House, Senate and get signed by the Governor, is the key to it.
 

ed

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drinking any amount while handling guns...but some do it quite responsibly.
oxymoron.jpg
 

Grapeshot

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Let's not forget that Commonwealth Attorneys are also amongst the "chosen ones." :uhoh:

While I agree that guns and alcohol do not mix, as a practical matter I think some established BAC will make it more palatable to the GA and offer a degree of protection to those that choose to have a glass of wine with their meal. LEO, CA, judges and knaves should all be under the same standard as us common folk.

Only concern I have beyond that is protecting my right of self-defense even if I have had 2 beers at home on an empty stomach.
 

USNA69

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Norfolk, Virginia, USA
And Once All This Is Sorted Out ...

... then we can start thinking about OC/CC and medically prescribed marijuana.

That is not here yet, but maybe we should discuss OC/CC and legally prescribed medications and their impairments of judgement, e.g. Vicodin, Percocet, Oxycontin, et. al.

What does the law say about that?
What does common sense say about that?
 

Citizen

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I think it's impossible to legislate everything User.
Most people know I'm not a fan of drinking any amount while handling guns...but some do it quite responsibly...

...Some things need to be left t society to regulate rather than the legal system.

I agree with Wylde. There are too many laws already.

+1

Unless there is a really big and dangerous problem that is not on the mend by social pressure, then no legislation, please. Prior restraint of all to protect a very, very few is just...well...out of proportion.

As already mentioned, it also gives government another line to cross, another standard to bend. Oh, and another opportunity for warrantless entry into a residence. As if there aren't enough warrant exceptions already.

(Unless the defense bar is feeling economic strain from declining crime statistics, of course. :D)
 

grylnsmn

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Actually, you can't be a concealed handgun permittee and be intoxicated while carrying. § 18.2-308(J1). You can't even drink an alcoholic beverage at a restaurant if you're carrying a concealed handgun, unless you're a law enforcement officer (the "drunken cop" exception), according to paragraph J3.

I'm actually a bit confused by § 18.2-308(J1), because it's a little ambiguous, in my opinion:
§ 18.2-308(J1): Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
When it says "such handgun", does it mean "a concealed handgun", or does it just mean a handgun? Does it therefore mean that a CHP holder is prohibited from drinking while carrying no matter what the mode of carry might be? Or is it just while they are carrying concealed?

It's a moot point for me, since I don't drink (and never will - both religious reasons and a family history of alcoholism that killed my grandfather), but it seems more ambiguous than a law should be.
 
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