Ann Arbor open carry

karagog · Apr 29, 2011

I just signed up on opencarry.org so I could share my experience open-carrying in Ann Arbor. This post also contains a correspondence with U of M's police department regarding carrying on their campus.

I just bought a Glock 9mm a few weeks ago, and also applied for my CPL. Taking the home protection class required for the CPL taught me a lot about the law and gave me a great opportunity to ask questions about open-carry. The instructors seemed to discourage it, but had to admit that it was our right to do so if we wanted. I have decided that even after I get my CPL I still want to open-carry around town because I have nothing to hide and I think someone needs to start doing it to show the public that not everyone who has a gun is evil. So now every day when I walk my dog downtown I carry my glock on my hip with a full magazine 15+1 in the chamber, and a spare mag with 15 rounds in a slot on my holster.

This has nothing to do with paranoia or machismo, which accusations some people in my family have thrown at me, this is all about 2nd amendment rights and demonstrating to the public that guns can be handled safely and responsibly. I can say that after 5 walks downtown I have had nothing but positive reactions from people. In fact, nobody has even mentioned my gun, they are more interested in petting my cute little long-haired miniature dachshund. I have stopped to talk with little old ladies, none of which were intimidated or even seemed to notice that I was carrying. I even got the impression that some of them felt very safe around me, like if something went down I would be one to protect them. Of course I did have one (possibly) negative reaction, where a family of 3 walking on the sidewalk towards me completely avoided eye contact and stepped off the sidewalk by at least 3 feet yielding the entire path to me and my dog. It even seemed like the father was trying to shield his daughter (possibly 5 years old) from "the bad man with a pistol". All I was doing was walking my dog, smiling and saying hello...I guess I can't satisfy everyone.

I have seen some posts in the forums saying "stay away from Ann Arbor", even some where opencarry.org members are afraid to drive through ann arbor on I-94 because of their "strict" gun control. I contacted U of M's police department to ask them what the real policy was before actually going downtown with my gun. Here is a transcript of my e-mails (so far):

Hello,

I'm in the process of getting my CPL from the state of Michigan, and I'm wondering if U of M campus has a gun law that is separate from the state's. The state law says that a CPL holder cannot carry concealed on a school property, but after researching more I learned that a CPL holder can carry an exposed pistol in any pistol-free zone, including a school. I also know about preemption, which says that local ordinance cannot override state law, so my initial assumption is that I can open-carry on campus once I get my CPL. Please tell me if I'm wrong, and if so, can you tell me where central campus begins on all sides so I don't get arrested? In other words, which streets should I avoid when open-carrying with my CPL (I'm always talking about walking around while carrying, because I'm aware if I was driving it would always be considered concealed-carry, and is therefore off-limits because it's a pistol-free zone).

Thanks!
<my name>

---- Response from UMPD ----

Mr. <my last name> –

Like all universities in the state of Michigan, the governing boards (in our case the Board of Regents) have made the campuses “weapons free zones.” At the U-M, in addition to state and federal laws, the Regents’ Ordinance (titled An Ordinance to Regulate Parking and Traffic and to Regulate the Use and Protection of the Buildings and Property of the Regents of the University of Michigan) is enforced on U-M owned, managed or leased property. The Ordinance can be found online at http://regents.umich.edu/ordinance.pdf

I’ve copied and pasted here the pertinent portion of the Ordinance that prohibits weapons on campus.

Article X: Weapons

Section 1. Scope of Article X

Article X applies to all property owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the

Regents of the University of MIchigan and applies regardless of whether the

Individual has a concealed weapons permit or is otherwise authorized by law to

possess, discharge, or use any device referenced below.

Section 2. Possession of Firearms, Dangerous Weapons and Knives

Except as otherwise provided in Section 4, no person shall, while on any property

owned, leased, or otherwise controlled by the Regents of the University of

Michigan:

(1) possess any firearm or any other dangerous weapon as defined in or

interpreted under Michigan law or

(2) wear on his or her person or carry in his or her clothing any knife, sword or

machete having a blade longer than four (4) inches, or, in the case of a knife

with a mechanism to lock the blade in place when open, longer than three

(3) inches.

The Michigan State Police also have issued guidance that states that individuals can’t carry in locations in which it violates local ordinance.

Here is a link to a website that includes maps of the various campuses of U-M Ann Arbor including the map for Central Campus. http://www.umich.edu/~info/mapsAndDirections.html#anchor_centralCampus

---- My response ----

Thank you for the information, I am trying to stay within the law and exercise my 2nd amendment rights and you are helping me tremendously. I do have some follow-up questions about your response.

You said that the Michigan State Police (hereafter MSP) have issued "guidance" that states we cannot violate local ordinance by carrying a weapon, but I interpret that as a suggestion and not a law. Suggestions don't preempt my constitutional right to carry. Is that a correct interpretation?

So if I follow the ordinance (even though it seems the law does not force me to do so), and I understand you correctly, I can use that campus map as a guide for which places are off-limits to me while I open-carry, by looking at which buildings belong to U of M. As long as I avoid those buildings I am satisfying the ordinance. What about sidewalks adjacent to those buildings, do those belong to the university or are those public domain? In other words, can I still carry on campus as long as I stick to the sidewalks on the main roads, which (I think) are owned and maintained by the state of Michigan?

And here is a philosophical question for you: How does banning guns on campus improve safety? I have been threatened before while on campus and didn't have any means to protect myself because I'm a law-abiding citizen. It seems the ordinance to ban firearms actually helps law-breaking citizens because they know that nobody can defend themselves if they want to take advantage of the unarmed populace. I don't really need a response to this question, I just pose it rhetorically because the ordinance doesn't make any sense to me. I hope we can repeal that soon.

Thanks,
<my first name>

I am still awaiting the response to my last e-mail, and I'll be sure to post it when I get it. It turns out (based on my recent experience) that Ann Arbor is not overrun with liberal pansies who freak out at the sight of a gun (though I have seen one or two). I would consider myself a liberal, but I am all for the second amendment, and I have met many people who share a similar belief system. I carry my gun everywhere I'm able to without a CPL: Grocery shopping, walking my dog around town, restaurants (and once I get the CPL I will open-carry practically everywhere, including any pistol free zone except U of M's property), and like to consider myself an activist, raising awareness about the right to self defense and desensitizing people who irrationally fear guns and gun-owners. My hope is that soon pistols in the open will be a common sight around Ann Arbor (much like the wild west, which is not too far from reality with reductions in public safety budgets).

So those of you who are afraid to carry your pistols openly in Ann Arbor, it's not that bad! I-94 (or any public street not owned or controlled by U of M) is still open for car-carry if you have a CPL, according to my still-unfolding correspondence with U of M police. So far I have only been as close as Main St, but on each walk I get one block closer, always being cognizant of what buildings are around me and if they belong to the U of M.

Disclaimer: Don't use me or this post as an excuse if you get in trouble with the police. Do your own research (like I am) and find out for yourself what is legal and not legal. I would suggest taking a CPL course, even if you don't intend to get a CPL. It will drastically change your perspective on handguns!

MKEgal · Apr 29, 2011

1) welcome aboard.

2) a university is not a school for the purpose of the "GF"SZ act(s). 'School' in that instance refers to K-12.

3) don't ask police for legal rulings. Most of the time they don't know what they're talking about. Read the laws yourself, ask on the MI forum, check out www.handgunlaw.us

4) if these are state schools you're talking about, how can a state agency go against state law (saying that CPL holders can carry)? It's public property, owned by the state, so state law applies. Or can someone educate me as to why the state law would not apply to the state agency?

karagog · Apr 29, 2011

Not sure I understand your question. I'm referring to View attachment MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf which specifically says CPL holders are exempt from the pistol free zones as long as they open-carry. They are still forbidden from concealed-carry. That is state law.

In fact I should work with U of M's local police force, because they enforce laws on campus. They know which laws they enforce and why.

scot623 · Apr 29, 2011

Be careful where you shop. You are not allowed on the premises(including parking lots) of any place with a liquor license while possessing a firearm when you don't have a CPL. Most grocery stores have liquor licenses.

karagog · Apr 29, 2011

Holy crap thanks for the tip. For some reason I was under the impression that it was any place that made more than 50% of its income from liquor sales so I thought I was ok. Maybe I shoulda had a different CPL course, 'cause I'm sure I remember them teaching us that. Nobody even raised an eyebrow at me at the store, they must have assumed I was a cop or something.

karagog · Apr 29, 2011

Also I remember hearing that parking lots ARE ok. Is that wrong too???

karagog · Apr 29, 2011

Ok I think I see what's going on. I'm getting my open-carry, concealed-carry laws confused with each other. After visiting handgunlaw.us I found that I am only prohibited from concealed-carry in taverns where their primary source of income is from alcohol, so once I get my CPL I can open-carry in a grocery store that sells liquor. It also seems school parking lots are permitted for concealed carry. So this must be different for open-carry. Why such a complex set of laws!? I want to follow them but they confuse the hell out of me! I just know it I'm going to get a misdemeanor even with the best intentions. Isn't one of the main points of the constitutional right to bear arms to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government? This sounds like a tyranny when they punish us for exercising one of the most basic fundamental rights. This sure is frustrating...I'll have to carry a handbook around with me to remind me where I can defend myself and where I'll have to put my head between my legs and kiss my *ss goodbye.

Glock9mmOldStyle · Apr 29, 2011

PFZ = Criminal Party Zones!

Well you can always carry a "rape whistle" while on campus. I think U of M does not consider them a weapon yet?

Just saying ...better get one before the ban

Don't worry "ALL CRIMINALS OBEY THE SIGNS" see link below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rVuZ0hJEyM&feature=related

To the Phone Book Snipers credit he chases our hero Navin to a carnival ground service entrance & immediately stops his pursuit upon seeing a sign stating: "Authorized Personnel Only".

stainless1911 · Apr 29, 2011

Welcome aboard, you're going to fit right in here.

Ok you're on the right track, really, and a nice correspondance too, but there are some things that can trip you up, and until you get your CPL you need to slow down a bit and make sure you have the laws understood. There is a lot to learn, and people here are more than willing to help you.

Bookmark the following link. It will help you tremendously.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(apkvdd3wiyyepfbpbzaxw155))/mileg.aspx?page=home

You need to know the following two laws like the back of your hand before you OC. The first is the pistol free zone law, MCL 750.234d, the second, MCL 750.231a, this deals with transportation.

Go to the stickies, and look up WARCHILDs Carry Chart, it's golden.
You'll also find the MSP legal update #86 a good read. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

When reading laws, be sure to notice little words like "premises" This is one people easily miss while reading 234d. You can't even be in the parking lot of a Krogers or Meijer because they have a liquor license. Doesnt matter if they have any for sale either.. In fact, here's another link you should bookmark, it lets you find out who has such a license. http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

MCL 750.234d 750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

MCL 750.231a
750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.Sec. 231a.
(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
(2) As used in this section:
(a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:
(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:
(i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
(ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
(iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
(iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
(v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.
(vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
(vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

These are the basics, and they will keep you out of trouble. Even though 234d is a misdemeanor, it will keep you from getting your CPL for either 3 or 8 years, I cant recall right now, but you get the point.

Another thing to remember, especially since it's getting warmer. You cannot CC in a vehicle without a CPL, I'm sure you know this, but one thing to remember is that a bicycle can be considered a vehicle in Michigan. That means that even though your gun can be seen clearly OC from a hundred feet away, in the eyes of the law, you are still considered CC, and that's a felony.! There is a little bit of debate on this, but you can be charged with a DUI on a bike, likewise you can be charged with a CCW, without your CPL. You may or may not be convicted, but why be the test case, you will be without your gun, your rights and your CPL until you get done with all of your appeals, and quite a few grand.

redreed · Apr 29, 2011

Who the confusion! What the fear???

karagog said:
Ok I think I see what's going on. I'm getting my open-carry, concealed-carry laws confused with each other. After visiting handgunlaw.us I found that I am only prohibited from concealed-carry in taverns where their primary source of income is from alcohol, so once I get my CPL I can open-carry in a grocery store that sells liquor. It also seems school parking lots are permitted for concealed carry. So this must be different for open-carry. Why such a complex set of laws!? I want to follow them but they confuse the hell out of me! I just know it I'm going to get a misdemeanor even with the best intentions. Isn't one of the main points of the constitutional right to bear arms to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government? This sounds like a tyranny when they punish us for exercising one of the most basic fundamental rights. This sure is frustrating...I'll have to carry a handbook around with me to remind me where I can defend myself and where I'll have to put my head between my legs and kiss my *ss goodbye.

It is frustrating. And indeed, that is the entire point! If I am an anti-gun bigot, who wants the entire world to be at the mercy of my immoral personal political agenda, then two my greatest strategies are confusion and fear. I thrive on them. If you are confused, you will be afraid. If you are afraid, of guns, or of being arrested, you will also leave your weapon at home, and stick you head in the sand (where it belongs!!!). If I can convince you that I will catch you violating some obscure law, then you get a record, which I can now use to prevent you from legally carrying a gun. I will also use it to point you out and shout to the world how we caught another evil gun toting fiend before he could strike! I will also continue to paint law abiding gun carrying citizens as being evil, because that is what evil people do. They paint evil as good, and good as evil. Hitler, Stalin, Mao-Tse Tung, and indeed, Satin himself are all masters in this art, and with time and effort, I can duplicate this effect here in the good old US of A. You carry a gun. Therefore, you must be a criminal waiting to strike. Nice people do not speak to the likes of you. Didn't I teach you this in school? You know these things!!!

This is why you must study and learn your gun laws yourself, so you can carry secure in the comfort of the knowledge that you are within the law and remain the law abiding citizen you want to be. But rest assured. I and the rest of my ilk, will do my utmost to convince you that your interpretation is flawed in every important respect. I will also prey upon your fears. You are NOT a lawyer, therefore, YOU MUST be totally and completely ignorant of the law, and equally incapable of overcoming your ignorance.

Fortunately I am NOT an anti-gun bigot. I can assure you that carrying a sidearm IS completely moral. You are only a criminal, if your INTENT is criminal. Keeps reading those guns law until the pages are completely dog earred and you find yourself waking up in the middle of the night because you had some obscure detail pop up in a dream that you need to refine. Then you will be able to carry in comfort as well as being able to speak with authority in the forums to othes who have the same fears as you had the day you first found the courage to step up and become a man (or a WoMAN). And read the forums often. Learn. learn. learn. Practice. Practice. Practice. Knowledge is king. And a well oiled tool is a very fine thing.

Every adventure requires a first step through the door. You're journey has begun. Do not let the bad people of the world dissuade you from your chosen path.

Do I rant? Thats OK. I mean well. I am not a professional author. But that does not mean I shouldn't write.

Live free. Choose wisely. Enjoy your life.

Bikenut · Apr 29, 2011

karagog said:
Ok I think I see what's going on. I'm getting my open-carry, concealed-carry laws confused with each other. After visiting handgunlaw.us I found that I am only prohibited from concealed-carry in taverns where their primary source of income is from alcohol, so once I get my CPL I can open-carry in a grocery store that sells liquor. It also seems school parking lots are permitted for concealed carry. So this must be different for open-carry. Why such a complex set of laws!? I want to follow them but they confuse the hell out of me! I just know it I'm going to get a misdemeanor even with the best intentions. Isn't one of the main points of the constitutional right to bear arms to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government? This sounds like a tyranny when they punish us for exercising one of the most basic fundamental rights. This sure is frustrating...I'll have to carry a handbook around with me to remind me where I can defend myself and where I'll have to put my head between my legs and kiss my *ss goodbye.

I admire your enthusiasm!

However... I am concerned that you might inadvertently screw up due to a lack of understanding of the complex laws covering OC so, in a sincere spirit of hoping to help, may I suggest putting off any further OC adventures until you have read.. reread... read again... and then read yet again... all of the information at the following link. Please, I honestly wish to help and do not intend this to be anything other than an attempt to help.

http://www.michiganopencarry.org/?q=node/12

Edited to add...

Oh... and if you are unclear on anything... anything at all... ask first and carry later. Best to postpone carrying until you are sure than to surely get to meet Mr. Ben Dover in the gray bar hotel.

Glock9mmOldStyle · Apr 29, 2011

Or he/she can can attend one of the many OC picnics coming up shortly & "pick the brains" of wise scholars such as yourself Bikenut or Venator or Sprinklerguy or Scot623 or Master Control or etc....

:monkey

stainless1911 · Apr 29, 2011

redreed

can I quote the first paragraph? I'd like to send this to some antis.

Bronson · Apr 30, 2011

MKEgal said:
4) if these are state schools you're talking about, how can a state agency go against state law (saying that CPL holders can carry)? It's public property, owned by the state, so state law applies. Or can someone educate me as to why the state law would not apply to the state agency?

Michigan Constitution gives them the ability to make their own rules/ordinances.

Bronson

Bronson · Apr 30, 2011

karagog said:
I'll have to carry a handbook

It just so happens that one exists....

http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/p/store.html

Bronson

stainless1911 · Apr 30, 2011

Here's the chart

Carry Chart - amended.pdf‎

Bronson · Apr 30, 2011

karagog said:
including any pistol free zone except U of M's property)

or courts or any place where official court business is conducted,
or Federal buildings,
or Secure areas of airports
or State agencies that have been given the authority to regulate the conduct of patrons in their facilities.

karagog said:
I'm referring to View attachment 5787

The MSP update is a nice reference but just remember it is not the law...it is one agency's interpretation of the law and is not binding on any other police dept.

karagog said:
It also seems school parking lots are permitted for concealed carry. So this must be different for open-carry.

Per MCL 750.237a you may not possess a weapon on school property unless you meet one of the listed exemptions, the most likely of which is a concealed weapons license.

4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor...

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

<snip>

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

Your MI License To Purchase/Possess that you were required to get in order to buy your handgun qualifies as an exemption to the Federal 1000' Gun Free School Zone, so you're good on that front.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922 > PARAGRAPH q > SUBPARAGRAPH 2

(2)

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

<snip>

(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So until you get your CPL you MAY possess your pistol up to a school's property line but you MAY NOT possess your pistol on school property (this is all referring to K-12 schools, not colleges or univertsities). Unless you can get permission from the school's principal in which case you could openly carry your pistol but not conceal it...I'd suggest getting it in writing.

Also, without your CPL you may be able to possess you openly carried pistol in the Firearm Free Zones listed in MCL 750.234d, including places that are licensed to sell alcohol, but you would, again, have to get permission from the owner or manager. I'd suggest getting it in writing.

Just a reminder that without your CPL or express permission you are not allowed to possess a firearm anywhere on the premises of any of the places listed below, there is no parking lot exemption in this law like there is in 28.425o (the concealed carry law).

MCL 750.234d

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the
Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

Bronson

karagog · Apr 30, 2011

Wow thank you so much for all the helpful replies! This place is a mine of information! I have to admit after the first couple replies to my post last night I was really questioning if I was doing the right thing or if it was just childish enthusiasm. I see now that I'm 99% in the right and the only law I've broken so far was to go shopping at Kroger (which thankfully didn't result in any problems, but I won't test that again!) I know that walking my dog in the places I have been is in accordance with the law, so I will keep doing that, but I don't want to give the government any reason to delay my CPL for even a day, so I will play by the rules and not test their limits.

The next 1-3 months I wait for my CPL will be torture for me 'cause I'm so eager to start carrying in those pistol-free zones, especially in my car (on the plus side I have a company-sponsored trip to Germany for the next 6 weeks, so that will help pass the time until then. And I will feel 100% safe knowing that no citizens in Germany own a gun so I'm 100% safe from any gun violence while I'm there **cough** SARCASM **cough**)

I've downloaded the tri-fold handbook for a quick reference and I'm starting to rehearse it like I was in a broadway show, and I also have that carry-chart now so I can make true-false flashcards until I forget everything I know about computer software and replace the knowledge with the overly-complex gun laws in Michigan. Thank you again so much for your help! I've read a lot of the forums already and most of the stickeys, and i know this thread repeats a lot of the information held therein, but I think it's best to repeat it several times all over the forums so casual readers have lots of places where they can find it.

Oh, and yes anyone can quote my posts, but do so at your own risk! If you can't tell I'm only moderately well informed, and I still have a lot to memorize.

1245A Defender · Apr 30, 2011

well,,,

when you get to Germany,,, buy your self a BaseBallBat!!!
Thats what all the thugs carry!!
it is a good offensive weapon , it is also a good defensive weapon!

stainless1911 · Apr 30, 2011

karagog said:
or if it was just childish enthusiasm.

Nope, I wish there were more like you. Too many people hear about OC, and don't do the research. A friend of mine in particular, it won't be long before he winds up prohibited without a gun.

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