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  1. #1
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Vcdl - fl-cdl

    Ok this is a group I could get behind http://www.vcdl.org/

    We need to form a group like this and put a gag on this deceitful Ms. Hammer/USF and do our own thing without the NRA like TX had to do. The Florida Open-Carry people seem a little too timid and gullible to be the leaders of such an important association (brboyer). I left VA in ’88 so I missed the creation of this organization. I remember how restrictive VA was in the 80’s so it is obvious they have made tremendous advancement. I guess that sniper thing scared the crap out of the anti’s.

    If you want to follow some more of Open-Carry and are not aware of it, there is another forum that has a section devoted to open carry http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/index.php. It’s pretty much the same guys that are on here but a little more cordial (unlike me). It’s another source that I wasn’t aware of when I started in all this. I’ve been watching them for a couple of weeks. I probably won’t be participating over there very much because since open carry got defeated I have other sites to frequent, which I’m sure won’t disappoint a few.

    Good luck guys and we’ll be back. Albeit in 24 years but we will be back.

    p.s. Thanks to those that PM'ed me. Be advise: opencarry.org has multiple sites with donation buttons.

    Just FYI...
    http://www.open-carry.org/
    http://www.floridacarry.org/
    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    p.s. Thanks to those that PM'ed me. Be advise: opencarry.org has multiple sites with donation buttons.

    Just FYI...
    http://www.open-carry.org/
    http://www.floridacarry.org/
    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/
    Um, wow.
    http://www.open-carry.org/ is Florida's open carry movement supported by:
    Florida Carry. http://www.floridacarry.org/ is a member organization patterned after VCDL and formed with the advice of its leadership.

    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/ is a forum that has nothing to do with any advocacy organization.

  3. #3
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    Um, wow.
    http://www.open-carry.org/ is Florida's open carry movement supported by:
    Florida Carry. http://www.floridacarry.org/ is a member organization patterned after VCDL and formed with the advice of its leadership.
    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/ is a forum that has nothing to do with any advocacy organization.
    OK,I didn't say anything. I just point out that they seem to be splintered. I think it would be more effective to form an organisation that does not "appear" to have a single objective limited only to the carry issue of guns.

    We need to form an association without "carry" in its name. Call it the Florida Citizens Defense & Safety League IDK. Safety seems to be a catch word lately and everybody seems to jump on that ban wagon when they hear it.

    The word carry (be it open or concealed) points to a single objective that has (pulling %'s out of my butt) less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry. I don't think you need to defend your organisation I'm just making an observation and relaying some of what I've heard when speaking about carry to groups of friends and others. Someone said that FOC (Florida Open Carry) was about four months old so it's not to late to evaluate it's defeat and it's oversight thinking USF supported you. I think the USF duped you into signing onto their bill. I think they were correct in saying you were not able to get a senator to sign on to (sponsor) a lone bill and your best shot was signing onto their's.I also think it was never their objective to get OC and we now live and learn.

    IDK if anybody supports this idea or if you want my participation. I've been labeled as radical by some and timid groups don't want radical people in their association. I may seem radical with my postings in these forums but I assure you all my emails and handshakes have been cordial and professional (as I see them). Strong but polite.
    Last edited by firedog; 05-03-2011 at 07:49 AM.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

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    Meh, here's where I veer off-course a bit:

    Once we start mincing words, and playing the -"lets call it this,to disguise that" game-like our clowns in Tally-we ending becoming them.
    We dont need deception. Not to ourselves, not to potential supporters, not to the clowns in office, and certainly not to the people of Florida.

    Let's call Spades, Spades, and be completely transparent about it. We have a cause.
    It is a right and proper cause.
    There is nothing "radical" about wanting rights that are already yours,but are legislatively denied to you, restored.
    This radical label nonsense is simply that: NONSENSE
    .
    It is basic, political fear-mongering, wherin your oppressors choose to undermine you,demonize you, and discredit you. I say call em out on it.
    Reverse it on them. Demand that they stand there, and tell you-and Florida- with a straight face WHY it is radical to demand your rights?

    To me, the real radicals in this situation, are the folks who can run for office-get elected, swear an oath to our Constitution, and then turn around and deliberately,knowingly, go out of their way to deny you rights guaranteed under that very Constitution. And actually expect you to agree to it. with a smile.
    Umm.... WTF,Over?

    I say, on this matter, No. Call it what it is. There should be no shame in it, there should be no desire to hide/obfuscate/or deceive anyone about it.
    Not even this nonsense of stuffing our agenda in with 2 or 3 other non-issue items, just in the hopes of getting it through.

    Really,folks? Inter-Border purchases of long-guns? Are you people bloody serious?
    How many of you out here are seeking a rifle so rare, that it cannot be acquired at any of your local gun/sporting goods retailers, that you feel compelled to have to drive from,say, Tampa, to Alabama to buy it? Is a $25 or so transfer fee to have one ordered locally and shipped such a deal-breaker, that you'll spend $100 + to drive however far to buy it? Honestly? Is such an item so high a priority that the Open carry aspect is worth sacrificing to get?

    Bottom line- play the game straight. Bold, decisive, up-front. If some are openly resistant to that, or simply too squeemish about the topic, call em out on it.
    And if there are elected representatives about whom people will say "there's no support for it"- well then, they've made their choice. They've identified themselves to you,me, and Florida, as the enemy of our rights..Their motives,reasons,etc. are moot. A right is a right.-It really doesnt need to be any more complicated than that. Out them. Replace them.

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    "less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry."

    And to this: I dont see it. The issue isnt if the people are behind it. I think some of the polls-not that I put a lot of stock in polls,anyway- were mostly overwhelmingly in favor of Open Carry-prior to the bill being raped. The real issue is the # of law-makers opposing it-for whatever reason.
    I think we'd find that the majority of Floridians would approve of it- the rest?...more than not simply couldnt care one way or the other. Typical voter apathy.

    No, the opposition to concern yourself with are the politicians making the laws-not the people.

  6. #6
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    "less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry."

    And to this: I dont see it. The issue isnt if the people are behind it. I think some of the polls-not that I put a lot of stock in polls,anyway- were mostly overwhelmingly in favor of Open Carry-prior to the bill being raped. The real issue is the # of law-makers opposing it-for whatever reason.
    I think we'd find that the majority of Floridians would approve of it- the rest?...more than not simply couldnt care one way or the other. Typical voter apathy.

    No, the opposition to concern yourself with are the politicians making the laws-not the people.
    Yea, the % figure I just snatch out of the air. I don’t think it is accurate because IDK what the real figure is. It was just a number I stuck in there. That’s why I said I pulled it out of my butt.

    I think most people that have CCW permits don’t really care either way. Some however do and its not in our favor. I think that a large number of the citizens understand that concealed or open doesn’t matter, they still don’t like guns. I think that number is dwindling though. The problem was that our own people let us down.

    It amazes me that over on the floridaconceledcarry forum there are guys posting, in the open carry forum, “why open carry”. They (very few, I don't want to start bashing another pro gun forum) already have concealed and open means nothing to them.

    As for the name, I think a name change would entice more members and more $$. Some even less pro gun and 2A then us if it “includes” defense and safety in its charter. You would have a border spectrum of issues people care about, enticing them to donate and join. A single line item in your name will not generate the revenue needed to fight this fight, especially when the largest pro gun group doesn’t support you. The biggest problem with forming a group like this is the veering off of the main focus by the leaders. The main focus must maintain 2A rights at all time. Open Carry and the second amendment is the underlying argument for this issue in Florida.

    I’m all for putting your agenda in your name but I don’t see it generating the support and dollars needed. Form a committee inside your new organization called open carry with that being their only focus in support of your charter of correcting 2A infringements.

    Just my 2cents..
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Why are there so many open carry groups. Holy crap. I just keep up with opencarry.org

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Why are there so many open carry groups. Holy crap. I just keep up with opencarry.org
    There is only the Nationwide opencarry.org and the Florida State organization floridacarry.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    Yea, the % figure I just snatch out of the air. I don’t think it is accurate because IDK what the real figure is. It was just a number I stuck in there. That’s why I said I pulled it out of my butt.

    I think most people that have CCW permits don’t really care either way. Some however do and its not in our favor. I think that a large number of the citizens understand that concealed or open doesn’t matter, they still don’t like guns. I think that number is dwindling though. The problem was that our own people let us down.

    It amazes me that over on the floridaconceledcarry forum there are guys posting, in the open carry forum, “why open carry”. They (very few, I don't want to start bashing another pro gun forum) already have concealed and open means nothing to them.

    As for the name, I think a name change would entice more members and more $$. Some even less pro gun and 2A then us if it “includes” defense and safety in its charter. You would have a border spectrum of issues people care about, enticing them to donate and join. A single line item in your name will not generate the revenue needed to fight this fight, especially when the largest pro gun group doesn’t support you. The biggest problem with forming a group like this is the veering off of the main focus by the leaders. The main focus must maintain 2A rights at all time. Open Carry and the second amendment is the underlying argument for this issue in Florida.

    I’m all for putting your agenda in your name but I don’t see it generating the support and dollars needed. Form a committee inside your new organization called open carry with that being their only focus in support of your charter of correcting 2A infringements.

    Just my 2cents..
    Im not saying making it or calling it the only issue. But- it is/should be a PRIMARY issue. A top priority vs. the handful of folks whining about buying a rifle in ,say, Alabama, as opposed to the next town or county over. And certainly not to deliberately conceal or even simply obscure that aspect of it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    FL-CDSL
    Florida Citizens Defense and Safety League.

    I’m going to have to start researching a financial supporter/investor for this. Maybe we can work together with Open Carry for the advancement of constitutional open carry and other 2A rights. The safety portion may prove profitable towards donations if we can offer defense classes, gun safety classes, sport shooting classes and any number of other educational opportunities. I know there are a lot of companies out there that offer these types of classes but none are non-profit and involved in 2A and open carry movements. I have contact with a few firearms instructors. I just wonder how much I would want NRA instructors involved.

    FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

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    If you guys might like some hints on how the VCDL runs its organization and has tapped the resources of a broad spectrum of citizen volunteers all over the state, consider sending a private message to " VCDL President " who is a user here and semi-regular commenter down in the Virginia forum. Users " Grapeshot "and " Peter Nap " could also be good resources especially regarding a bent toward open carry and how to advocate for it. Peter Nap is one who can get into the issues with the dangers of just having a group that seems to focus too much on the privilege of licensed carry.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    You are not talking about doing anything that Florida Carry isn't already doing or have planned.

    http://www.floridacarry.org/index.ph...id=4&Itemid=22

  13. #13
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    If you guys might like some hints on how the VCDL runs its organization and has tapped the resources of a broad spectrum of citizen volunteers all over the state, consider sending a private message to " VCDL President " who is a user here and semi-regular commenter down in the Virginia forum. Users " Grapeshot "and " Peter Nap " could also be good resources especially regarding a bent toward open carry and how to advocate for it. Peter Nap is one who can get into the issues with the dangers of just having a group that seems to focus too much on the privilege of licensed carry.
    Thanks for the info. I will have to touch bases with them.

    I’m going to talk to my bosses and see if they don’t have some resources to tap also.
    They train the US military on combat use of weapons and tactics along with VIP protection details. He’s mentioned a few times that he wanted to get into the civilian aspect of what he does. A non-profit may fit into his ideas. As a previous legislative liaison it may prove advantageous to our cause.
    Last edited by firedog; 05-03-2011 at 11:21 AM.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    FL-CDSL
    Florida Citizens Defense and Safety League.

    I’m going to have to start researching a financial supporter/investor for this. Maybe we can work together with Open Carry for the advancement of constitutional open carry and other 2A rights. The safety portion may prove profitable towards donations if we can offer defense classes, gun safety classes, sport shooting classes and any number of other educational opportunities. I know there are a lot of companies out there that offer these types of classes but none are non-profit and involved in 2A and open carry movements. I have contact with a few firearms instructors. I just wonder how much I would want NRA instructors involved.

    FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.
    As long as you DO something I won't disparage it, but what exactly is your problem with Fl Carry? That they're going for licensed open carry first? It is would be difficult in the extreme to get 790.053 repealed without first getting licensed OC. At least next year.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-03-2011 at 11:18 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.
    Good job copying and pasting!

    http://www.floridacarry.org/index.ph...id=6&Itemid=10

    We actual adapted ours from VCDL's but we did it with permission from VCDL leadership.

    firedog, I'm not sure why you have a problem with Florida Carry.
    Is it that we have only passed one of the three bills we were able to have introduced by others or directly filed this year?
    It is the anti-gun laws that we have already been successful in having removed from the books in multiple Florida counties and public facilities?
    Is it that we already have lawsuits ready to file this year?

    Or is the problem simply that you didn't think of and execute it first?

    Regardless of your reasoning for this thread we will continue to take the successes we achieve and learn from our losses when we fall short. Florida Carry continues its mission to protect the right of all law abiding people in Florida to carry defensive weapons, on or about their persons, wherever they have the legal right to be.
    Last edited by StogieC; 05-03-2011 at 11:53 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    As long as you DO something I won't disparage it, but what exactly is your problem with Fl Carry? That they're going for licensed open carry first? It is would be difficult in the extreme to get 790.053 repealed without first getting licensed OC. At least next year.
    I have no problem with FL Carry. Let that be clear. I don’t want to openly criticize any pro 2A group.

    I'm worried that this Osama thing is going bring the Dems back in power and if Obama is able to bring the fuel prices down before election he is going to be unbeatable. Bush did it with the fuel prices and he was able to get reelected to a second term easily. People wanted to see him get Osama and he didn’t. Now a Democratic President has accomplished what he did not. Even though it wasn’t Obama that did the work it will be a campaign item that is undisputable. If he gets in a second term, katty bar the door on gun rights and their elimination. God help us then.

    I think this single issue will not generate the revenue needed to fight the USF. Open carry is not their priority and they have said that openly. Their next legislative session will consist of the Campus Carry issue and they will again sell out “Open Carry” for a victory.
    Last edited by firedog; 05-03-2011 at 05:58 PM.
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  17. #17
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    Good job copying and pasting!

    Regardless of your reasoning for this thread we will continue to take the successes we achieve and learn from our losses when we fall short. Florida Carry continues its mission to protect the right of all law abiding people in Florida to carry defensive weapons, on or about their persons, wherever they have the legal right to be.
    Yes I did copy and paste. I had a thought and I borrowed..

    I see I have the administrator watching me now and I'm probably one click away from getting my IP banned.
    I'll shut up now. This was only a test..... LOL....
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    I see I have the administrator watching me now and I'm probably one click away from getting my IP banned.
    I'll shut up now. This was only a test..... LOL....
    I'm no admin here. And they don't use the ban hammer much.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    Their next legislative session will consist of the Campus Carry issue and they will again sell out “Open Carry” for a victory.
    This should motivate us even more if true. USF is going after something that most students don't care about and is much more radical, IMO. Radical for the ignorant sheep and the anti gun media. Only Utah preempts public schools, while everybody has OC. Also, given this irrationality over OC, Florida Carry needs to write next year's OC bill so that schools can regulate intentional OC on campus. Else it becomes a sticking point for us.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-03-2011 at 12:37 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    OK,I didn't say anything. I just point out that they seem to be splintered. I think it would be more effective to form an organisation that does not "appear" to have a single objective limited only to the carry issue of guns.

    We need to form an association without "carry" in its name. Call it the Florida Citizens Defense & Safety League IDK. Safety seems to be a catch word lately and everybody seems to jump on that ban wagon when they hear it.

    The word carry (be it open or concealed) points to a single objective that has (pulling %'s out of my butt) less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry. I don't think you need to defend your organisation I'm just making an observation and relaying some of what I've heard when speaking about carry to groups of friends and others. Someone said that FOC (Florida Open Carry) was about four months old so it's not to late to evaluate it's defeat and it's oversight thinking USF supported you. I think the USF duped you into signing onto their bill. I think they were correct in saying you were not able to get a senator to sign on to (sponsor) a lone bill and your best shot was signing onto their's.I also think it was never their objective to get OC and we now live and learn.

    IDK if anybody supports this idea or if you want my participation. I've been labeled as radical by some and timid groups don't want radical people in their association. I may seem radical with my postings in these forums but I assure you all my emails and handshakes have been cordial and professional (as I see them). Strong but polite.
    Your obsessive focus on titles, instead of actions, is why you are so pissed off now, re: The Open Carry bill.

  21. #21
    Regular Member firedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
    Your obsessive focus on titles, instead of actions, is why you are so pissed off now, re: The Open Carry bill.
    I thought you were going to ignore me. Please do…
    2A - "Shall not be infringed". Our fathers said so!
    All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog View Post
    I thought you were going to ignore me. Please do…
    How about we stick to the issues? Your (and other's) histrionics are becoming tedious.

  23. #23
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    Ok THE issue. What's the title of this entire message board,again?

    OPEN CARRY.

    end of discussion.


    Not "Ooops I might have a wardrobe malfunction and you might see my gun "

    Not "Shucks I cant go to Georgia to buy a rifle I can get at Gander Mountain"

    Or am I completely off-base here?


    And stog-the issue isnt with u guys- apart from a concern that the effort is being watered-down in the face of bullies. Why cave? Why simply accept being swatted down like uppity puppies? And yes, bending your original principles and deviating from your original path in the face of resistence,instead of confronting it, and working to remove that resistance, is disturbing.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    And stog-the issue isnt with u guys- apart from a concern that the effort is being watered-down in the face of bullies. Why cave? Why simply accept being swatted down like uppity puppies? And yes, bending your original principles and deviating from your original path in the face of resistence,instead of confronting it, and working to remove that resistance, is disturbing.
    I'm sorry you think that of Florida Carry and me. You are 100% wrong about how things transpired on this, our first real attempt, and I take exception to the accusation that I or FL Carry caved, but I'm sorry you see it that way.

  25. #25
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    Not that you caved-yet. But, it's troubling-and Im far from the only one here feeling it-even though only one or two of us are actually speaking out and saying it- that immediately following a massive betrayal and defeat, we're being told "take it easy" etc, and then being told let's no focus on Open carry, etc.

    If Im off the mark here, by all means show me. Look back over all these threads for the past several months about OPEN carry. Nothing in there about "lets get protected CC" or lets raise hell about getting rifles in other states. OPEN carry was THE primary focus, as I understood it, and most others did as well.
    All we're saying is, if the past approaches didnt work out, and if our so-called "friends" in office are going to betray us at worst, or simply sit on the sidelines and watch others do so,at best, let's look to some alternative methods.
    Preferrably methods that include the eventual replacement of those who've betrayed us.
    And for that we're called "radical" and "abusive" and "rude" and "threatening" .

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