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Thread: What's your advice?

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    What's your advice?

    Howdy Folks!
    I recently purchased a .38 S&W Airlight revolver for my wife along with several handguns of my own. It was, and remains, our intent to apply for CCW permits. As we live in Adams County, this may be a time consuming (wasting) process. Based on information I have received from others, the local sheriff isn't real keen on issuing CCW permits. While the "Shall Issue" status of Colorado requires approval or denial within 90 days, I've heard that it may take considerably longer.

    With those facts in mind as preamble....

    Should I enroll my wife and me into a CCW course now and apply sooner?
    Or, because my wife will be having catarach surgery in June, should I hold off until her vision improves and she has a better chance of hitting the mark on the "live fire" part of the CCW course? Our last trip to the range was just a couple of days ago, and her ability to group her shots at or near the bullseye is improving.

    Considering it may take quite awhile after we apply for our CCW permits, would it be smarter to wait another month until after the wife has surgery or simply jump in and get the training out of the way now, despite her vision being somewhat impaired at this time? I feel she'd make her 80% shots on target, but I'm uncertain how bad her eyesight might be. She's been doing real good on the range, and her accuracy is improving.

    What would you suggest?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  2. #2
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    There's no state standard for shooting accuracy. My wife and I took the NRA Basic Pistol course, and the target we shot at was a piece of copy paper at about 10 feet. I wouldn't be surprised if some instructors and/or courses have a proficiency requirement -- I'd inquire with those teaching the course you're interested in.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Being able to reliably hit what you are aiming at is part of responsible gun ownership. If you are carrying for self defense it is imperative that you are able to not only hit what you are aiming at, but that your hits are in places where they will be most effective in stopping the threat of death or serious bodily injury.

    If your wife is not yet proficient in hitting what she aims at she needs help correcting that. Correcting her eyesight would be one part of that process. Getting training might be another. There are several methods or "schools" of shooting and most likely one of them is better for her than all the others. A good instructor does not teach only one method unless they advertise that up front - and then it's the student's responsibility to decide before or after paying for the classes if that method really works for them. I'm going to put my nomex jammies on and say that point shooting may be a method your wife might want to take a look at both before and after cataract surgery.

    Also go read Tam over at A Cornered Cat www.corneredcat.com and what she has to say about both training and picking out handguns for your wife. Just keep in mind that you meant well. And be sure to tell your with that you meant well.

    stay safe.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Did she pick out her own handgun after doing her research, handeling as many different types as she could and renting and shooing different models and calibers? Or did you just get her a "women's gun"... http://www.corneredcat.com/Men/buywifegun.aspx

    I only ask this because you say "I recently purchased a .38 S&W Airlight revolver for my wife". You did not say that "My wife picked out a _____."

    When my former wife and I went gun shopping, SHE picked out a .38 stubby and ended up not being able to hit anything with it. She refused to try different guns and knew the .38 was for her. She shot my 9mm like a champ though.

  5. #5
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Did she pick out her own handgun after doing her research, handeling as many different types as she could and renting and shooing different models and calibers?
    (snip)
    I only ask this because you say "I recently purchased a .38 S&W Airlight revolver for my wife". You did not say that "My wife picked out a _____."
    Howdy Kingfish!
    Great question, and I surely didn't make very clear how that particular piece was selected.

    Before putting money down on a handgun, we had her shoot several pistols that included rentals and some my pardner owns. She fired 9mm, 38, semiauto and revolver pistols, and she liked the revolver better because she has trouble working the slide on a semiauto pistol. We later learned that she can handle a Sig .380 okay, so that may be in her future as an option. Meanwhile, the guy at the gun store steered her to a larger frame .357 and said they have one in the rentals if she'd like to try that one. Maybe next time we hit the range we will have her fire that one.

    When I said I bought her the S&W .38 model 642, I really meant I paid for it, but she seemed to like that pistol. Like Lay's potato chips, likely as not she won't just have one. We can get her another pistol when she settles on something else she likes, but the one she has was her own choosing.

    Also, her eyesight isn't preventing her from grouping good patterns to the center rings of a medium sized target at 5 yards. Her accuracy has been improving over time, and she is getting more accurate with every visit to the range.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  6. #6
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    There is no live fire required in CO, at least El Paso County. The Sheriff has no discretion in 'shall issue' states, save some compelling reason to deny. If some counties require live fire, I'd be interested in knowing which ones.

    If she got a snubnose, I recommend Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P as a carry load. It is made for short barreled revolvers and has excellent ballistics. While I usuall carry a 1911 SIG or one of my Browning Hi-Powers, when I do carry the Taurus M-85 it is with these loads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Being able to reliably hit what you are aiming at is part of responsible gun ownership. If you are carrying for self defense it is imperative that you are able to not only hit what you are aiming at, but that your hits are in places where they will be most effective in stopping the threat of death or serious bodily injury.
    +1. If you can't trust your shot, you shouldn't take it. If you can't take a good shot, you shouldn't carry.

    Goint OT, how many are proponents/opponents of point shooting?
    Last edited by mahkagari; 05-04-2011 at 12:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    In the classes I teach it usually isn't too hard to pass the shooting part of the class. I also have small classes and am able to provide much more individual attention to assist strugling students.

    With that being said, there are some who do not even have a shooting requirement for their class; they offer a classroom only alternative which does meet the state requirements for the CCW. Personally I believe it to be a little irresponsible of those individuals, but it does meet requirements.

    Ask yourself, are you looking to recieve a certificate of completion, or would you prefer to pay for training.

    I have two classes with seats available a week and half from now.

  9. #9
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    In the classes I teach it usually isn't too hard to pass the shooting part of the class. I also have small classes and am able to provide much more individual attention to assist strugling students.

    With that being said, there are some who do not even have a shooting requirement for their class; they offer a classroom only alternative which does meet the state requirements for the CCW. Personally I believe it to be a little irresponsible of those individuals, but it does meet requirements.

    Ask yourself, are you looking to recieve a certificate of completion, or would you prefer to pay for training.

    I have two classes with seats available a week and half from now.
    Howdy Pard!
    I agree with you that classes that don't include shooting proficiency do not strike me as very responsible. I am pretty certain that those type classes (offering classroom instruction only) won't pass muster with the Adams County sheriff at all.

    While I am not an instructor nor anything close, I am certainly more experienced with firearms than my wife, so I have been coaching her on various aspects of the handgun. I've stressed safe handling of her weapon, always treating it as if it were actually loaded at all times, never pointing it at anything she does not intend to destroy, and other aspects along with taking her to the range to shoot.

    In our case, a certificate of completion just ain't what we're looking for. We want to get our CCW's, sure. But we also want to be proficient in handling our weapons. That means having some idea how to shoot the thing.

    As you are an instructor, I'd like to ask if the CCW background investigation is any different than the CBI background check when purchasing a firearm? If there are not vastly different, is that not a study in redundancy?

    Thanks for your response. Sure do appreciate it.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    I am pretty certain that those type classes (offering classroom instruction only) won't pass muster with the Adams County sheriff at all.
    From the Adams County Sheriff's site at http://www.co.adams.co.us/sheriff/ch...uctorsList.pdf :

    "We STRONGLY encourage live-fire training, although we can’t statutorily require it."
    Last edited by Dynamite Rabbit; 05-04-2011 at 11:25 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamite Rabbit View Post
    From the Adams County Sheriff's site at http://www.co.adams.co.us/sheriff/ch...uctorsList.pdf :

    "We STRONGLY encourage live-fire training, although we canít statutorily require it."
    Howdy Dynamite!
    Yes, I know what the website says on the CCW requisites, but I also know that the sheriff can exercise some degree of discretion as to what he will accept. From what I have learned from others who got their CC in Adams, he tends to discount those that do not demonstrate some proficiency with the handgun. While it may not be required by statute, it can affect whether any given individual will get their CCW in Adams County.

    My sentiment is that everything I can do to make the whole process easier and better ensure our getting those permits in a timely fashion is what I want to do. Knowing the proclivities of a particular sheriff can assure hassle is avoided in advance. Considering he is said to have a personal view that one should have demonstratable shooting proficiency (as in a live fire portion of a CCW class) it would simply be expedient on our part to meet or exceed his particular standards to enhance our securing those permits.

    It is my understanding that the sheriff has a somewhat higher standard for issuing permits, so we will rise to those standards in preparing to apply for those permits.
    Just seems sensible for me to ensure we are ready when the time comes.

    Thanks for your response.
    Much obliged!
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  12. #12
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    There is no live fire required in CO, at least El Paso County. The Sheriff has no discretion in 'shall issue' states, save some compelling reason to deny. If some counties require live fire, I'd be interested in knowing which ones.

    If she got a snubnose, I recommend Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P as a carry load. It is made for short barreled revolvers and has excellent ballistics. While I usuall carry a 1911 SIG or one of my Browning Hi-Powers, when I do carry the Taurus M-85 it is with these loads.
    Howdy Gunslinger!
    That is some really useful information. Thank you for sharing that info. I will hunt up some of those for her pistol before our next outing to the range. Might make her shooting even better than our last trip over there.

    I surely appreciate your suggestion and will look forward to trying those out with her.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  13. #13
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    I am pretty certain that those type classes (offering classroom instruction only) won't pass muster with the Adams County sheriff at all.
    It will. He has no choice. It meets the state standard. He may not prefer it, neither do I, but it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    As you are an instructor, I'd like to ask if the CCW background investigation is any different than the CBI background check when purchasing a firearm? If there are not vastly different, is that not a study in redundancy?
    It is a little more in depth than the CBI check done at point of sale. That being said, isn't redundancy the true purpose of government?

  14. #14
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I have a S&W 642 purchased primarily for my wife who has a disability, and physiology requiring a small, light, revolver. It is perfect for her hand.

    I was pleasantly surprised on the first trip to the range with that little gun . The grip in my hand is pretty tiny - and I had low expectations for my accuracy with it. Small or not, the ergonomics are excellent. I was very surprised. 5 yards might well be the maximum accuracy range under stress, but its accuracy out to 10 yards wasn't far behind my Glock 23. I figure 5 yard range encompasses most immediate threats. Well designed. readily concealable, and like Gunslinger says with good quality ammo - a good defensive weapon that's inconspicous & light.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    In the classes I teach it usually isn't too hard to pass the shooting part of the class. I also have small classes and am able to provide much more individual attention to assist strugling students.

    With that being said, there are some who do not even have a shooting requirement for their class; they offer a classroom only alternative which does meet the state requirements for the CCW. Personally I believe it to be a little irresponsible of those individuals, but it does meet requirements.

    Ask yourself, are you looking to recieve a certificate of completion, or would you prefer to pay for training.

    I have two classes with seats available a week and half from now.
    It depends who is getting the CCW. Having had them from 5 other states, Small Arms Expert with three stars from the Air Force, NRA Sharpshooter certificate and 40 years of experience with handguns, I didn't need either. Beginner, different story, or even an experienced shooter new to CC. All but one in our class were experienced, so open discussion took up 3 of the 4 hours. That made it tolerable. Being shown how to eject a magazine from a 92F or what sight picture means for 4 hours would not have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Yes, I know what the website says on the CCW requisites, but I also know that the sheriff can exercise some degree of discretion as to what he will accept. From what I have learned from others who got their CC in Adams, he tends to discount those that do not demonstrate some proficiency with the handgun. While it may not be required by statute, it can affect whether any given individual will get their CCW in Adams County.
    I'll echo others that he probably doesn't have the statutory ability to have to much discretion. He'd have to document his "discretion", not just have a whim not to approve a state certified course. If he were to be that whimisical a vision restriction on a driver's license could have an impact.

  17. #17
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Any subjective denial of a CHP is subject to judicial review- a relatively simple procedure in the District Court.

  18. #18
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    Any subjective denial of a CHP is subject to judicial review- a relatively simple procedure in the District Court.
    Howdy Rushcreek2!
    Now that's a good piece of information.
    Not that I expect it will be necessary, but good to know if the situation comes up!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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