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Thread: Michigan State Police to take your blood pressure/pulse at stops

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Michigan State Police to take your blood pressure/pulse at stops

    Quote Originally Posted by petoskeynews.com
    Michigan police aim to find drug-impaired drivers

    LANSING, Mich. (AP) Michigan's police agencies are working to boost the number of officers trained in catching motorists driving under the influence of drugs drivers state police say are no less a threat than drunken drivers.

    The Lansing State Journal reports that police agencies facing a recent rise in traffic fatalities involving drug use began an effort last week to greatly expand the number of officers statewide trained in spotting drug-impaired motorists.

    Alcohol-impaired drivers often can be detected with a quick preliminary breath test, but drug-impaired drivers are much harder to spot.

    Determining whether suspected drug-impaired motorists are actually under the influence can take an hour or more of assessing a suspected motorist and include even taking a suspect's pulse and blood pressure at the roadside.
    http://www.petoskeynews.com/news/pnr...,1362251.story

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    Regular Member Sail Man's Avatar
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    Then they also need to be checking the driver's blood sugar as well as SpO2. "Hey Officer, how much are ECG's this week?"

    Courtesy of Mike Thompson, Freep, http://www.freep.com/article/2011042...e-State-Police


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    Dont suppose anybody brought up the fact that some people drive better on pot?

    This war is doing exactly as I predicted it would a few years ago. It is the "gateway" for fascism and socialism.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-04-2011 at 03:59 AM.

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    Smoking pot typically lowers blood pressure, a certain health benefit. Another strike against an ineffective drug war that the majority of people do not want.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    There is no law requiring your consent to a BP test. They can't yank your license or charge you with a crime nor give you a ticket if you refuse. The answer here is simple, like all other requests for search. Refuse.


    It disgusts me they are doing this...

    ETA: Thanks for the post, PD.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    There is no law requiring your consent to a BP test. They can't yank your license or charge you with a crime nor give you a ticket if you refuse. The answer here is simple, like all other requests for search. Refuse.


    It disgusts me they are doing this...

    ETA: Thanks for the post, PD.
    You are correct, just like Standard Field Sobriety tests, a BP test is not required. However, if you are being asked to take a BP test, the officer has probably already decided that it is possible to likely that you are under the influence of a controlled substance. A refusal is documented in the report and more than likely you go to jail because the officer has Probable Cause to believe you are Operating Under the Influence of Drugs.

    At the jail or hospital you will be asked to submit to a blood test. Since your Driver's License includes implied consent, you either agree or your license is automatically suspended. Then the officer obtains a search warrant for your blood and gets the results back a few days from now.

    PC is a simple as erratic driving, add constricted pupils, red/glossy eyes, unsteady on your feet, slurred speach etc etc and there is more than enough PC for an OUID arrest.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Coming next...

    prostate exams

    are these clowns an arm of the TSA????
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    My thought is that it would not be much of a "leap" to apply this to other areas - operating a boat or snowmobile or maybe even just carrying a firearm. I know I have not heard of anyone having to take a "breathalyzer test" while carrying, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

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    +1 pd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    My thought is that it would not be much of a "leap" to apply this to other areas - operating a boat or snowmobile or maybe even just carrying a firearm. I know I have not heard of anyone having to take a "breathalyzer test" while carrying, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
    At least 9 CPLs last year revoked for carrying under the influence; not all counties reported statistics however. I'm sure most involved a PBT and later a datamaster or blood sample at the jail. I believe implied consent goes along with a CPL and there are penalties if you fail to provide a sample. If you are open carrying and not carrying under a CPL, no implied consent so there are no penalties if you fail to provide a sample. Again, if the officer has PC, off you go to jail and a search warrant obtained for blood.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_343621_7.pdf

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    28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.
    When carryng concealed.

    Same applies to a DL. But you don't have to submit unless you are engaged in the act that the license allows. For example if I'm not driving and I have a DL do I have to submit to a BAC test?
    Last edited by Venator; 05-04-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior1978 View Post
    At least 9 CPLs last year revoked for carrying under the influence; not all counties reported statistics however. I'm sure most involved a PBT and later a datamaster or blood sample at the jail. I believe implied consent goes along with a CPL and there are penalties if you fail to provide a sample. If you are open carrying and not carrying under a CPL, no implied consent so there are no penalties if you fail to provide a sample. Again, if the officer has PC, off you go to jail and a search warrant obtained for blood.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_343621_7.pdf
    Thanks, well aware of the law and these reports.

    My point was simply "I had not heard of anyone having to undergo it". 9 persons out of a approximately 250K CPL Holders means that the likelihood of hearing about someone undergoing it is pretty low - thanks for backing up my statement.

    To me, this probably means that the likelihood of someone undergoing Blood Pressure and/or Pulse Readings while carrying under the authority of a CPL is probably pretty low as well.

    Now, would that same law for CPL Implied Consent possibly apply to Blood Pressure and/or Pulse Readings? By what MCL could it possibly apply to persons Open Carrying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Thanks, well aware of the law and these reports.

    My point was simply "I had not heard of anyone having to undergo it". 9 persons out of a approximately 250K CPL Holders means that the likelihood of hearing about someone undergoing it is pretty low - thanks for backing up my statement.

    To me, this probably means that the likelihood of someone undergoing Blood Pressure and/or Pulse Readings while carrying under the authority of a CPL is probably pretty low as well.

    Now, would that same law for CPL Implied Consent possibly apply to Blood Pressure and/or Pulse Readings? By what MCL could it possibly apply to persons Open Carrying?
    No. Implied consent to "chemical analysis" applies whenever we're talking about driving a car, boat, snowmobile, ATV OR carrying a firearm under a CPL. Applied consent goes for a PBT and blood/breath at the jail. Implied consent does not mean you have to take Field Sobrieties Tests or a blood pressure/pulse reading. These tests are voluntary.

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    Yes sir: Sorry to have to stop you,,,,
    Sir while we were doing our usual stop, and our exam of you we noticed that you seem to have quite a few Police business cards in your prostate check, sorry to have taken so much of your time butt it was fun Right ?

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    Regular Member FLEMTP's Avatar
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    this is asking for trouble... there are SO many variables that effect blood pressure, such as blood pressure medications... mild to moderate dehydration...various disease processes...etc.. and my issue is, if an officer is trained to check your blood pressure and pulse rate.. fine.. but interpreting the results in the face of the above mentioned variables is something that I'd be willing to bet they wouldnt be trained in.. let alone understand.

    You really want to confuse a leo .. after he checks your BP.. make sure you tell him
    "sir... im on 2 beta blockers and an ace inhibitor, as well as a potassium stripping loop diuretic..." and watch his head spin when he realizes he has NO idea what that may or may not do to a blood pressure reading...

    Cops are cops.. not paramedics.. or other medical trained professionals. Leave this stuff to them.

    One other thought..

    if a cop takes your blood pressure.. but does not give it back.. can he be charged with larceny ? hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    When carryng concealed.
    Good call, thanks.

    I know one thing is for sure, if I get pulled over, Im going to be under a lot of stress, the fine for an average ticket at my income level is simply devastating. It means that I might not be driving for several months, I will very likely lose my DL for non payment, and my blood pressure is going to reflect that.

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    IANAL; my understanding is that the Field Sobriety Tests are voluntary, and the refusal of the PBT is a CIVIL infraction that involves a fine, not points or has any affect on your DL.

    1. It is impossible to pass the Field Sobriety Tests - that aren't designed to help you in any way, just a mechanism for collecting more evidence against you in trial.
    2. The PBT is inadmissible other than to establish probable cause for your arrest.

    The solution? Don't drink and then drive.

    Carry On

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    IANAL; my understanding is that the Field Sobriety Tests are voluntary, and the refusal of the PBT is a CIVIL infraction that involves a fine, not points or has any affect on your DL.

    1. It is impossible to pass the Field Sobriety Tests - that aren't designed to help you in any way, just a mechanism for collecting more evidence against you in trial.
    2. The PBT is inadmissible other than to establish probable cause for your arrest.

    The solution? Don't drink and then drive.

    Carry On
    Impossible to pass FSTs huh??? Many a police officer have had to demonstrate FSTs in a court room. There are specific number of clues per test that if failed indicate that an 88% chance or better that the person has a BAC greater than .08.

    And yes you are correct about PBT refusal being a civil infranction and inadmissable other than to establish Probable Cause. One exception to to that is on a snowmobile, PBT refusal if a misdemeanor and thus an arrestable offense by itself.

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    They might take your Bp and pulse, but without a search warrant they won't be taking mine.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    lol being a avid runner, I have a very low resting heart rate! I'm sure they would suspect me!

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    if we were all drugged, like in the movie Equilibrium, this wouldn't be a problem...
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    I guess I fail to see the utility of taking blood pressure. If I am under the influence of weed, perhaps it would be low BUT if I were under the influence of speed or another stimulant, it would most likely be high. So, depending on what their preconceived suspicion is, either way I am guilty of something.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Here is where I think the BP reading may be useful.....

    An officer stops someone drivinb, speech is slurred, unsteady on their feet, not complaining of any medical conditions, performs poorly on sobriety tests but the PBT shows .000. A high or low BP and a fast or slow heart rate would further support an arrest for operating under the influence of drugs.

    An unusual BP/HR alone means little, but combined with other observations = PC for arrest. Even without a BP/HR assessment, there is probably PC for arrest but the more the better.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    This is stupid. Though a single person can be taught how to read a BP on their mate it's quite another to get accurate reading over a range of difference you'll see doing a lot of random people.

    Unless they're planning on sending a medic these results won't mean anything. A lawyer could easily get them thrown out costing millions to staff an EMT or RN with each patrol, though I suppose they could use a machine. Regardless, a high or low BP or elevated pulse is not immediately diagnostic of drug use; people get nervious.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 05-05-2011 at 09:01 PM.

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