Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 49

Thread: Riding a Bike through a school zone while Carrying

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    291

    Riding a Bike through a school zone while Carrying

    With Gas prices going up I think I"m going to start riding to work in the mornings ( about a 5.5 mile ride). My dilema is as followed. No matter which way I go, I would be riding through a school zone particularly an elementry school zone. These elementry schools are off stringfellow and Lees corner road in chantilly, which are major I guess you call them "drags".

    Is there any issue with this if I stay on the major road and off the side walks? Both schools have cops permantly posted outside and I can see in a heart beat a cop stopping me and saying well your in a school zone. Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...za1995_ccw.pdf for the details on how to avoid problems.

    stay safe.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    I'm not going to cite the GFZ. It's been beaten to death.
    I'll give my opinion instead.

    The GFZ is not enforceable for simply passing by a school on a public highway. It has to be an add on for another crime. I know of no cases where someone has been charged for simply driving by, walking or riding past a school while armed...Except... for one Chesterfield case and we don't know the details or how the case will come out yet and that was a state charge, not Federal.

    The field seems to be divided about equally among gun owners that want a CHP so they can drive on the roads in safety, and those that aren't going to give in to a law that is designed to have a chilling effect and deprive law abiding gun owners without a Permit, their rights.

    If you're looking for an answer that's written in stone, there isn't one. You pays your money and you takes your chance.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-04-2011 at 12:33 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    rob99vmi04, it won't matter how well versed you are in the niceties of the Federal GFZ law while you are being detained by a LEO near the school. Mostly because s/he may not be so well-versed. Being on a bicycle isn't really much different than being afoot (yes, I know that traffic rules apply). If you have a CHP, you're exempt (as along as you're not actually on school property), but you'll need to be certain where the property line is, and the LEO may not actually know. It's also possible that the local LEOs don't have the authority to enforce the Federal GFZ.

    The parents dropping off their kids might take a dim view of your boldness.

    Good luck.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    rob99vmi04, . Being on a bicycle isn't really much different than being afoot (yes, I know that traffic rules apply).
    There may be one difference. A bicycle is considered a vehicle and as such he should be able to tuck it in a Secured Compartment. I do that all the time on my motorcycle.

    A word of caution though...the term "Secured Container" hasn't been tested yet and many LEO's, including our own Novacop, believe that means locked.

  6. #6
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    It's also possible that the local LEOs don't have the authority to enforce the Federal GFZ.
    They don't.
    The parents dropping off their kids might take a dim view of your boldness.
    F' 'em.

    I take a dim view indeed of their snobbishness and obliviousness.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    18
    I've been wondering this myself. I have open carried while riding right in front of a Chesterfield officer who was sitting in a school zone, but nothing happened. I do conceal carry on my bike now because I've been concerned about the GFZ stuff. Wouldn't having a concealed handgun on your person, on your bike be considered concealed "in a personal vehicle"?

  8. #8
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    There may be one difference. A bicycle is considered a vehicle and as such he should be able to tuck it in a Secured Compartment. I do that all the time on my motorcycle.

    A word of caution though...the term "Secured Container" hasn't been tested yet and many LEO's, including our own Novacop, believe that means locked.
    Perhaps not.

    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

    Note that it isn't the container which must be secured, but rather the handgun must be secured in the container. Even if the container is locked, does that mean the gun can't rattle around? Sorry, Novacop.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    There is no state law that covers school zones. As long as you are not on K-12 school property, you're fine.

    The Federal GFSZA covers 1000ft from any K-12 property, but if you have a CHP you're exempt (the federal gfsza exempts holders of state-issued permits to carry firearms).
    Not quite.... From the GFSZA:

    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"
    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 05-04-2011 at 07:23 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    But a bicycle doesn't have a motor... how can it be classified as "a motor vehicle?"

    TFred

  11. #11
    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    368
    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    They don't.F' 'em.

    I take a dim view indeed of their snobbishness and obliviousness.
    While my daughter is no longer going to a public school here I did bring a firearm in the vehicle while dropping her off. I do not believe I was ever in violation of the law, but I don't worry about the past or what I need(ed) to do to protect my family.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    But a bicycle doesn't have a motor... how can it be classified as "a motor vehicle?"

    TFred
    You may be right Tfred, that's why I said it may. Actually, some bikes do have motors but all have to obey the same rules as motor vehicles. What about scooters. They do have motors.

    Lots of gray in that law including what is a vessel. That's generally considered a ship or LARGE boat. Is my 21 foot sailboat a vessel, how about my canoe or my kayak????????
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-04-2011 at 09:15 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    If memory serves, the definition for a motor vehicle is under 8.01-307 and it does not include things that are human or animal powered.
    Last edited by ProShooter; 05-04-2011 at 10:29 PM.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    There is no state law that covers school zones. As long as you are not on K-12 school property, you're fine.

    The Federal GFSZA covers 1000ft from any K-12 property, but if you have a CHP you're exempt (the federal gfsza exempts holders of state-issued permits to carry firearms). As stated above, this law is almost always an add-on charge for someone already going down for other crimes. However it is still the law and still could possibly be enforced.
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Not quite.... From the GFSZA:

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"
    Roscoe
    Actually, quite so.

    Nova states correctly - there is no Code of Va. GFSZ 1000' application -or any distance in so long as you are not on school property. Even then, there are addition exceptions.

    Your excerpt from the federal GFSZ Act of 1995 just reinforces his statement.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    There is no state law that covers school zones. As long as you are not on K-12 school property, you're fine.

    The Federal GFSZA covers 1000ft from any K-12 property, but if you have a CHP you're exempt (the federal gfsza exempts holders of state-issued permits to carry firearms). As stated above, this law is almost always an add-on charge for someone already going down for other crimes. However it is still the law and still could possibly be enforced.
    I told the OP this as well.. except his permit is a UTAH permit, not a VA CHP.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  16. #16
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You may be right Tfred, that's why I said it may. Actually, some bikes do have motors but all have to obey the same rules as motor vehicles. What about scooters. They do have motors.

    Lots of gray in that law including what is a vessel. That's generally considered a ship or LARGE boat. Is my 21 foot sailboat a vessel, how about my canoe or my kayak????????
    In a former life, I served in the US Coast Guard Auxiliary, and IIRC, USCG considers all watercraft as vessels. I did many a safety patrol using my 27' vessel.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    623
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    If memory serves, the definition for a motor vehicle is under 8.01-307 and it does not include things that are human or animal powered.
    Except 8.01-307 states:
    For the purpose of 8.01-308 through 8.01-313
    18.2-308.1 Isn't part of 8.01-308 through 8.01-313, and does not specifically cite 8.01-307, so the definition there doesn't apply (unless there is a court ruling citing that definition as controlling for other sections of law).
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  18. #18
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Except 8.01-307 states:18.2-308.1 Isn't part of 8.01-308 through 8.01-313, and does not specifically cite 8.01-307, so the definition there doesn't apply (unless there is a court ruling citing that definition as controlling for other sections of law).
    Well, I have seen people get DUI's while on a bicycle.....
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Well, I have seen people get DUI's while on a bicycle.....
    I remember reading of someone that got a DUI while riding a horse - don't think it was in Va. though.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Actually, quite so.

    Nova states correctly - there is no Code of Va. GFSZ 1000' application -or any distance in so long as you are not on school property. Even then, there are addition exceptions.

    Your excerpt from the federal GFSZ Act of 1995 just reinforces his statement.
    No, it doesn't. You missed my point. Nova said that if you have a CHP you're exempt from the 1000' rule of the federal GFSZA. I was pointing out that a: the CHP must be issued in the state in which the school zone exists, and b: the state that issued the CHP must perform background checks as part of the CHP process. If you've got an out of state CHP, but no VA CHP, you could still be charged under the federal GFSZA for carrying w/in 1000' of a school, even if the out of state CHP is recognized by VA.

    Roscoe

  21. #21
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Well, I have seen people get DUI's while on a bicycle...
    I know that it is illegal to ride a bike and wear headphones on a public street.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...+cod+46.2-1078

    And bicycles are specifically mentioned in several other sections under Title 46.2 of the state code.

    Bicycles operated on public streets are considered "motor vehicles" for the purpose of enforcement as they are required to honour and obey traffic signs, signals and yes, even speed limits.
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    If you've got an out of state CHP, but no VA CHP, you could still be charged under the federal GFSZA for carrying w/in 1000' of a school, even if the out of state CHP is recognized by VA.
    But you are not going to be charged with a FEDERAL CRIME by local law enforcement. I think that's the point which YOU are missing.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    No, it doesn't. You missed my point. Nova said that if you have a CHP you're exempt from the 1000' rule of the federal GFSZA. I was pointing out that a: the CHP must be issued in the state in which the school zone exists, and b: the state that issued the CHP must perform background checks as part of the CHP process. If you've got an out of state CHP, but no VA CHP, you could still be charged under the federal GFSZA for carrying w/in 1000' of a school, even if the out of state CHP is recognized by VA.

    Roscoe
    With all due respect, there are those (myself included) who do not believe that this would necessarily hold up in court. (Your literal interpretation of the CHP part of the law.)

    A license to carry concealed is a non-tangible status of being. The fact that Virginia does recognize an out-of-state issued license, does in fact mean that Virginia also "licenses" you to carry concealed, but based on the efforts of another state to ensure you are qualified to do so. (Virginia is the ONLY government who is able to license you to carry concealed "in Virginia". It's Virginia's law that you are working with, the license must come from Virginia.)

    The next point is a little stickier, but I believe would also pass muster, if Virginia chooses to recognize only out-of-state licenses from states that require similar background checks, then this should also meet the requirement as well. Who runs the background check should not matter, only that the requirement to grant the license is predicated upon a successful background check of equal scope.

    As we all say, it's never been tried in court, and nobody would want to be the test case, but I know User has chimed in support on at least a part of this legal theory, and I think it could stand a decent chance, especially given the fact that nobody seriously thinks the GFSZA will pass Constitutional muster anyway, despite the "corrections" they made to it after it failed the first time.

    JMHO, and IANAL...

    TFred

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    With all due respect, there are those (myself included) who do not believe that this would necessarily hold up in court. (Your literal interpretation of the CHP part of the law.)

    A license to carry concealed is a non-tangible status of being. The fact that Virginia does recognize an out-of-state issued license, does in fact mean that Virginia also "licenses" you to carry concealed, but based on the efforts of another state to ensure you are qualified to do so. (Virginia is the ONLY government who is able to license you to carry concealed "in Virginia". It's Virginia's law that you are working with, the license must come from Virginia.)

    The next point is a little stickier, but I believe would also pass muster, if Virginia chooses to recognize only out-of-state licenses from states that require similar background checks, then this should also meet the requirement as well. Who runs the background check should not matter, only that the requirement to grant the license is predicated upon a successful background check of equal scope.

    As we all say, it's never been tried in court, and nobody would want to be the test case, but I know User has chimed in support on at least a part of this legal theory, and I think it could stand a decent chance, especially given the fact that nobody seriously thinks the GFSZA will pass Constitutional muster anyway, despite the "corrections" they made to it after it failed the first time.

    JMHO, and IANAL...

    TFred
    If you want to be the test case, that's fine. I sure wouldn't. Also, see: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    .But you are not going to be charged with a FEDERAL CRIME by local law enforcement. I think that's the point which YOU are missing.
    Yeah, and there's a zero chance, that if local law enforcement picks you up for something else, and you're carrying, that they'll call the feds and let them know.

    I think I just saw an ostrich...

    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 05-05-2011 at 09:48 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Yeah, and there's a zero chance, that if local law enforcement picks you up for something else, and you're carrying, that they'll call the feds and let them know.
    Because that's all local cops think about is rattling someone for carry in a school zone and then enjoying the company of a federal investigation in their jurisdiction.

    Local cops hate the feds almost as much as we do.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •