Deafening silence....

brboyer said:

We would be if there were more people like you out there.

You clearly have no understanding of any of the processes involved and seem to be completely ignorant of the reality of politics.

Why don't you go sit down and let serious people work on this.

You are nothing more than a distraction.

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I think you may be onto something. Maybe we can go sit down with the newly formed (being formed) FL-CDL.
"completely ignorant of the reality", "You are nothing more than a distraction", you arrogant SOB. You are the one that caused me to investigate Florida Carry and you are the reason I pulled my future donations. You and your little buddies on here want us to go sit down like you did in Tally when they gutted the bill. I assume our dollars are a distraction also. Oh no look what I did, I made and "As$ out of "you" and me when I contributed to a single minded group. The distraction to the cause is you. Maybe you need to put the "I'm not a lawyer" sig on here also. You also need to ad "I'm not a recruiter of allies".

Man this guy pisses me off. Why can't he simply save his arrogance for the pricks in Tally and stop attacking fellow gun owners on here. You guys at floridaconcealedcarry have really created something. Put a muzzle on him or take him back over there....

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/florida/forming-nonprofit-corporation-florida
http://www.lonestarcdl.org/
http://www.vcdl.org/

brboyer said:

We would be if there were more people like you out there.

You clearly have no understanding of any of the processes involved and seem to be completely ignorant of the reality of politics.

Why don't you go sit down and let serious people work on this.

You are nothing more than a distraction.

Click to expand...

Once again,genius, show me where I'm wrong. And put it to a poll ,if you feel the need.

You suggest a "strategy" based on gathering statistics for an activity which is nearly non-existent. By the same token, you shoot others down for suggesting a Proposition/Petition for a referendum because they'll "need X # of signatures"

So where does your proposed strategy leave the cause? Sending nutbars out to provoke/test the system so that they can be detained and or arrested,just so you can take a handful of statistics to Tally, and say "ooh look! oooh looook- your law is flawed!" ??? The clowns in Tally know damned well it's flawed. They deliberately made it that way,so that they can try to say "gee, see here, we tried to do the right thing,but couldnt, so we compromised and got this half-assed protection for CW thing".
100% bunk. You know it, FLC knows it, they know it-we all know it.

Instead of merely bitching about it, or clinging to fantasies of "convincing" these folks to do our bidding, some of us are instead focusing on the real problem-the real distraction-the clowns who deliberately stand in the way of right, and who actively seek to continue to DENY you that right. Our suggestion is to work towards reducing or eliminating (politically-) the number of clowns in office,and finding folks more inclined to work TOWARDS re-establishing that right.
A longer shot,no doubt, but surely not much longer than 20+ yrs of continuing this sad story.

Ignorance of the reality of politics? Hardly sport. We understand full-well.And see right through the b.s. now,dont we. And rather than sit on the outside,and speculate as to who stands where on what, we intend to work it from the INSIDE, and serve as a counter to the opposition directly.

Here’s how we ended up in this situation in the first place:

“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just ban ‘Saturday Night Specials’”.
“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just register all the handguns”.
“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just register all the long guns, too”.
“We want to completely ban carrying guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll allow you to carry a gun if you get a license from your local LEO, get fingerprinted, pay for a background check and show us you have a valid reason to carry a gun”.

And so on. One “compromise” at a time, they took our rights. It was always a win for them and a loss for us. They were patient and they played the system. In the last twenty-odd years, we’ve managed to fight our way part way out of that hole, but we’re not there yet.

Now some of you want to take us back to 1870 in one session of the legislature. That’s an unrealistic goal. It can’t be done. The legislative process won’t allow it.
Blaming the people who are working on your behalf for being unable to change the system overnight is unreasonable, to say the least.

There’s an old saying; “I do what I can, not what I should”. We should force the legislature to decriminalize open carry, but it’s not possible to do it all at once.
Furious rants and finger-pointing don’t help. Withholding membership fees and donations to the NRA/ILA and the USF doesn’t help. That just makes you part of the problem.

Japle said:

Here’s how we ended up in this situation in the first place:

“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just ban ‘Saturday Night Specials’”.
“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just register all the handguns”.
“We want to completely ban guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll just register all the long guns, too”.
“We want to completely ban carrying guns and you don’t, so let’s compromise. We’ll allow you to carry a gun if you get a license from your local LEO, get fingerprinted, pay for a background check and show us you have a valid reason to carry a gun”.

And so on. One “compromise” at a time, they took our rights. It was always a win for them and a loss for us. They were patient and they played the system. In the last twenty-odd years, we’ve managed to fight our way part way out of that hole, but we’re not there yet.

Now some of you want to take us back to 1870 in one session of the legislature. That’s an unrealistic goal. It can’t be done. The legislative process won’t allow it.
Blaming the people who are working on your behalf for being unable to change the system overnight is unreasonable, to say the least.

There’s an old saying; “I do what I can, not what I should”. We should force the legislature to decriminalize open carry, but it’s not possible to do it all at once.
Furious rants and finger-pointing don’t help. Withholding membership fees and donations to the NRA/ILA and the USF doesn’t help. That just makes you part of the problem.

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Respectfully I disagree. We had this one. The language was there, the sponsor was there and the votes were there. IMO and from what I saw (not in the back rooms anyway) we had this one. Had the NRA/ILA brought their A game and told them “we will bring the full weight of the NRA in opposition to your reelection and future US goals” I believe we would have had a complete victory. Even Boogie may have stepped away. If the NRA had indicated they were willing to take a defeat if OC was pulled from the bill we would have gotten OC this session. This is my belief and it will be unyielding. The NRA needs to know more people are pointing at them and whatever it takes to convince them they took the easy way to victory on this one and it was not right for Floridians.

Our compromise was licensed OC. Enough compromise.

2A all the way..!

Agreed.^
But to add- no one's blaming FLC and the like -said it before-the blame lies entirely in the house and senate-to the opposition who go out of their way to deny you your rights,as well as to the fair-weather allies who meekly step aside and accept defeat and compromise.(which, to be totally honest, was a sham/a show, just to get some postive pats on the back before revealing their true colors at the last minute)
The disagreement is on how to approach/solve the problem.
Some want to continue things by pushing a stance that is a non-issue to begin with, and to take that stance on the same folks in Tally who are the problem.While side-stepping the real issue.

And why,exactly, can something not be done in one bill? One session? They can sure as hell whipe out your rights at the stroke of a pen in one session, why should they be "unable" to restore them with the same swift stroke? The only reason such an act can be considered impossible, is because the people continue to allow it to be so.

I didn't surrender but I was beat.

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In politics, you're not beat until you surrender.

There have been a few who have said, "OC is dead, we'll never get OC now, [insert sounds of a little girl sniffling]", but only a few. The rest of us know better.

Next year!!

ZO6Vettever said:

I didn't surrender but I was beat.

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You can’t get beat if you were never in the fight, Evers and the NRA said it “this was never about open carry”. IDK but I read that as we were never in the fight or we didn’t know who the opposition was. :banghead:

j4l said:

"requesting or and compiling data on CWFL holders who have been unduly detained for the reasons this abortion "

Are you bloody KIDDING ME? THAT's the plan? gather statistics on a non-issue?
Or what-send folks out to deliberately test it, so they can get nailed for it, and be the statistic that you need?

Christ,no wonder we're doomed.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, did I say that was the only plan? Look. Let me tell you how it is. No gun-related bill will even be considered without Marion Hammer's blessing and support. When I contacted Rep. Paige Kreegel about the preemption violations going on in Lee County and other jurisdictions, one of the very first things his office did was to contact Marion to see what her views were on it. Then he got the State Attorney involved and both he and SA McCollum contacted Lee County directly and got blown off. It was at that point that we knew the only way to force the issue was in the legislature.

Marion carries the full weight of the NRA and the legislators know it. Florida Carry is only 5 months old, and yet open carry got all the way to the floor. It took Marion alone 7 years to get shall-issue concealed carry through to law. For the first time in 24 years, Florida Carry was the ONLY organization who took open carry seriously and we almost got there. Ever wonder why there are so many so-called Florida gun rights groups over the years that went nowhere? It's because they tried to do it without Marion, the USF, and the NRA.

Now if you want to know who the real culprit was in all of this, it was the Florida Retail Federation and its leader members including Publix and Bealls. They are the ones who crushed open carry. The Florida Sheriffs Association shot themselves in the foot (pun intended) by their unlawful antics and false information. Bogdanoff's amendment was driven by the FRF's huge capital resources and full-time lobbyists. Florida Carry would love to have that ability but it takes money...money we don't have. So we have to rely on the grassroots efforts of our members, including being able to battle the legislature with data, statistics, logic, and precedent in other states. The only other way is to flush out the RINOs from the legislature at election time. But you're not going to get what you want by throwing a tantrum, stomping your feet, and demanding change.

We're open to suggestions.

Rich7553 said:

No gun-related bill will even be considered without Marion Hammer's blessing and support.

Now if you want to know who the real culprit was in all of this, it was the Florida Retail Federation and its leader members including Publix and Bealls.

We're open to suggestions.

Click to expand...

This was my suggestion

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-Carry-in-Wisconsin-Restaurant-Carry-in-Ohio

To be honest, if the fact that 40 Brown, Green, and Gold Star states don't have retail problems with OC doesn't sway them, nothing will convince them. You can try boycotting. I wrote an email to Publix and they started calling my cell phone the next day saying they didn't have any problem with OC. They don't want to be seen as anti gun.

Do we know by chance if OC is even a goal of Hammer? Does she want to see Fl drop the waiting period, get campus carry, and constitutional carry before she's too old to fight?

Rich7553 said:

I'm sorry, did I say that was the only plan? Look. Let me tell you how it is. No gun-related bill will even be considered without Marion Hammer's blessing and support. When I contacted Rep. Paige Kreegel about the preemption violations going on in Lee County and other jurisdictions, one of the very first things his office did was to contact Marion to see what her views were on it. Then he got the State Attorney involved and both he and SA McCollum contacted Lee County directly and got blown off. It was at that point that we knew the only way to force the issue was in the legislature.

Marion carries the full weight of the NRA and the legislators know it. Florida Carry is only 5 months old, and yet open carry got all the way to the floor. It took Marion alone 7 years to get shall-issue concealed carry through to law. For the first time in 24 years, Florida Carry was the ONLY organization who took open carry seriously and we almost got there. Ever wonder why there are so many so-called Florida gun rights groups over the years that went nowhere? It's because they tried to do it without Marion, the USF, and the NRA.

Now if you want to know who the real culprit was in all of this, it was the Florida Retail Federation and its leader members including Publix and Bealls. They are the ones who crushed open carry. The Florida Sheriffs Association shot themselves in the foot (pun intended) by their unlawful antics and false information. Bogdanoff's amendment was driven by the FRF's huge capital resources and full-time lobbyists. Florida Carry would love to have that ability but it takes money...money we don't have. So we have to rely on the grassroots efforts of our members, including being able to battle the legislature with data, statistics, logic, and precedent in other states. The only other way is to flush out the RINOs from the legislature at election time. But you're not going to get what you want by throwing a tantrum, stomping your feet, and demanding change.

We're open to suggestions.

Click to expand...

Well, the rest of us arent saying demand the change-we're saying MAKE the change. Or at the very least undertake the long-shot/underdog effort from the grassroots level to do so. Only way some of us seeing that happen without bending over for the NRA or any other lobby, is to go at it from the inside.

If enough folks can get up and try a run for office, then perhaps in a year or two we can have some folks less easily swayed by lobbying groups,and a bit more swayed by actual voters. And hopefully some of these will have the nads to call these people out openly when they start to flip and flop at the puppet-strings of Publix or whoever else.

And no, none of the potential candidates we've spoken with are planning a run solely on this issue. So it's not a one-item candidate. But they do intend to make the issue a priority, and do so free of the taint of Publix and the like.

One thing we've ALL seen 1st-hand in watching these proceedings, is how biz is being done in Tally on a number of bills. And we recognize that it's past time to try to change that. By changing most of the players,if possible.
Now, with Senators and Reps known to be friendly to your cause, and unwilling to play by the usual methods, do you think you'd have perhaps a better chance of passing something one of these days?
Long-shot or not, I think it's a shot worth taking.
That's not to say a combination of your efforts and ours, in unison could not move things along a bit.

Rich7553 said:

I'm sorry, did I say that was the only plan? Look. Let me tell you how it is. No gun-related bill will even be considered without Marion Hammer's blessing and support. When I contacted Rep. Paige Kreegel about the preemption violations going on in Lee County and other jurisdictions, one of the very first things his office did was to contact Marion to see what her views were on it. Then he got the State Attorney involved and both he and SA McCollum contacted Lee County directly and got blown off. It was at that point that we knew the only way to force the issue was in the legislature.

Marion carries the full weight of the NRA and the legislators know it. Florida Carry is only 5 months old, and yet open carry got all the way to the floor. It took Marion alone 7 years to get shall-issue concealed carry through to law. For the first time in 24 years, Florida Carry was the ONLY organization who took open carry seriously and we almost got there. Ever wonder why there are so many so-called Florida gun rights groups over the years that went nowhere? It's because they tried to do it without Marion, the USF, and the NRA.

Now if you want to know who the real culprit was in all of this, it was the Florida Retail Federation and its leader members including Publix and Bealls. They are the ones who crushed open carry. The Florida Sheriffs Association shot themselves in the foot (pun intended) by their unlawful antics and false information. Bogdanoff's amendment was driven by the FRF's huge capital resources and full-time lobbyists. Florida Carry would love to have that ability but it takes money...money we don't have. So we have to rely on the grassroots efforts of our members, including being able to battle the legislature with data, statistics, logic, and precedent in other states. The only other way is to flush out the RINOs from the legislature at election time. But you're not going to get what you want by throwing a tantrum, stomping your feet, and demanding change.

We're open to suggestions.

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Rich, seriously! You don’t think the NRA could have won this one if they really wanted to. Regardless of the FRF and their money & it only took two minutes to see that FSA was full or crap when you refer to their argument in ’87. MSgt, USAF Ret. I’m sure you know the political arena and how to play it. So maybe your defending the NRA is admirable. Maybe you’re correct that we have to eat our pride and play nice with the USF. I’m still pissed at them directly because I heard what I heard. The NRA is the same as the politicians. When you start flaming them in public and aggressively put out bad publicity they take notice. They take notice because they want your dollars just like the politicians.If OC is successful they have little else in FL to pursue. The FRF was not totally against OC. They just wanted to protect themselves and their ability to ban OC if they found the need and not be regulated by the law and forced to accept it.

Good luck if you rely on the NRA… Unless you think they would under mind you in the future like they did TX.

My suggestion, FL-CDL. A group with a multi agenda approach on 2A..

77zach said:

+1

Again, legalizing OC is a tall order. It doesn't matter what state you are in. If that state had criminalized OC for some reason 25 years ago, getting the prohibition repealed would take work. Even in gold star states people react with surprise when they learn OC is legal. We've been TRAINED. Please read my signature. They're government school educated, don't appreciate any of the reasons for OC, would never OC themselves, and so assume that there must be a darn good reason OC was made illegal in the first place. Despite being wrong countless times, they're not into the gun rights movement so they really think OC will turn into "the wild wild west."

If we want it, we cannot in any way confirm their stereotypes of "gun nut". Being overzealous and visibly upset will not help the cause. I'm going to try and do what Sean says. He and FL carry are on the map and have taken initiative and are serious about FL getting OC. This is doable. OK has failed the last two years. TX failed on their first attempt, and may even fail this year. Arkansas failed this year. South Carolina failed this year. We're going to have to leave the comfort zone and actually go to the offices of these people, or whatever it is Fl carry has planned.

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Correct me if I heard wrong, I thought I heard Marion Hammer say that Florida was an open carry state and that they created CC because open was the only way you could carry.

One problem I have heard from Florida, as well as other CC only states, was that OC, with a permit, was needed because of accidental and brief OC. Perhaps this should never have been brought up or used, instead perhaps that reason should have been fought as vehemently as CC only.

I was pulling for you guys. Don't give up the fight for liberty and maybe next time freedom will win out. In the meantime you can always visit next door in Alabama, and OC here.

Daylen said:

One problem I have heard from Florida, as well as other CC only states, was that OC, with a permit, was needed because of accidental and brief OC. Perhaps this should never have been brought up or used, instead perhaps that reason should have been fought as vehemently as CC only.

I was pulling for you guys. Don't give up the fight for liberty and maybe next time freedom will win out. In the meantime you can always visit next door in Alabama, and OC here.

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Alabama, I hope you guys are OK up there. I FB’ed with a couple of firefighter buddies in Tuscaloosa and they are working their ass’s off. Thanks for the input…

How's this... Go in person to your local Anti's office. Schedule an appointment. Bring facts and news from other states. Bring transcripts of the FSA's lobbying against CC back in the day. Bring info on how LEO and retailers deal with OC in the other states. Bring info on how we're good and normal people. Bring info on how we want to carry more safely, not just because of the deterrent and ready-accessability, but show them how concealment holsters/pockets are less safe than traditional holsters, where space, comfort, and accessability afford you the chance to have retention mechanisms. Show them how Utah with campus carry has had 0.000 school shootings/gun accidents. Show them how other "tourist states," Virginia, North Carolina, Nevada, and others, are OC-legal, and there is no tourism related problem with it. Bring them info from other police departments' lobbying against CC because they like OC better. Show them how fanny-packs and such nonsense are legal carry methods (when everyone knows what they're used to 'pack') and how few OC-ers (as in, 0) have ever harmed police, and how few (less than 5, ever) have been 'gun-grabbed' or 'taken out first.'
E-mail melt-downs and even letters may not get their attention, no matter how many facts we stuff in there.
But if we can get to meeting and talking with them in person to present our case and logic, facts, and constitutional obligations, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to win over just enough of them for next year.
See how poorly educated and prepared even our best advocates were? Everyone's like "What's open carry? will people have guns in their hands?"
"Uh, I dunno... hold on..."

It was basically just a slap-in-the-face wake-up-call saying "look what we wanna do! You're unconstitutional jerks if you don't give it to us."
Of course, none of us, myself included, believe they have any acceptible excuse for ruining open carry, but we can't really expect politicians to support something they've hardly even heard about before?
We gotta educate the supposedly-pro-gun ones.
I live Bodganoff's district offices, I'm willing to go and try to talk to her with facts and transcripts. Find out an anti in your area to go talk to.

Posted by firedog:
The NRA is the same as the politicians. When you start flaming them in public and aggressively put out bad publicity they take notice. They take notice because they want your dollars just like the politicians. If OC is successful they have little else in FL to pursue.

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So the NRA torpedoed OC in order to keep the money coming in? So they’d have something to do in Florida?

Say, I’ll bet they were in on the Kennedy assassination and are keeping some alien bodies they recovered at Roswell.

Sure, that makes sense!

Just because they’re the ones responsible for the fact that OC is pretty much the only big issue left here is no reason to think they’re not a bunch of evil toads.

Japle said:

So the NRA torpedoed OC in order to keep the money coming in? So they’d have something to do in Florida?

Say, I’ll bet they were in on the Kennedy assassination and are keeping some alien bodies they recovered at Roswell.

Sure, that makes sense!

Just because they’re the ones responsible for the fact that OC is pretty much the only big issue left here is no reason to think they’re not a bunch of evil toads.

Click to expand...

I didn’t say they torpedo’d anything. I’m saying they didn’t put their full weight behind it. I have supported them for many many years. This issue they disappointed me to a level I can not fathom.

The NRA had a pretty full plate this legislative session. They had three pro-gun bills to promote and that was just in Florida.
We’ve had CC for well over 20 years and they were fighting in other states, pushing hard to get them something we now take for granted. If they didn’t have the resources to do all that and help us with OC too, I certainly can’t blame them.

Is the answer to bad-mouth them and withhold the money they need? Really??

There was more to it than any lack of resources or what have you. And when the NRA really put's it's effort into things, they manage to pull em off.
Its well-documented through many threads here-go back and give em a look at what went down.
But they went into saying one thing,came out of it denying ever having said it, then began making weak excuses for why they didnt get behind it .
All of it utter bunk.

And yes, once the main issues are resolved, they no longer have an active interest here-nothing to chase after, and nothing for which to try to drum up $$ and memberships.
And frankly, we've come to see that now it's all about the $$. Not us, not our rights.