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Thread: Fellow CA UOCer arrested.

  1. #1
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Fellow CA UOCer arrested.

    Benjamin was NOT arrested on gun charges!

    Benjamin has done a good vid on UOC here


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b49gX...e_gdata_player

    I'd like to bring this to people's attention. We can learn from every police encounter and add the knowledge to our tool box.

    His arrest video is here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TV-t...e_gdata_player

    News coverage here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reHdj...e_gdata_player


    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    That's too bad. I've never met Ben before but he seemed like a nice guy from his videos. It's good that they weren't open carrying at least, since otherwise they'd get hit with the mask + gun = illegal law. Thanks for the link Ryan.

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    can someone summarize? i cant see the vids right now
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    2 brothers hung signs on a freeway overpass. inside the fence so no chance of dropping them on cars below.
    They had on goofy mask.
    They were asked to leave, and when they did not ID themselves, got busted.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iopencarry View Post
    2 brothers hung signs on a freeway overpass. inside the fence so no chance of dropping them on cars below.
    They had on goofy mask.
    They were asked to leave, and when they did not ID themselves, got busted.
    I saw that video a week or so back. We are quite supportive of people's 1st amendment rights, but there are some restrictions that apply, and make sense. Hanging a sign from public property is restricted pretty much everywhere unless you get a permit first. What do you think that freeway crossing would look like if there was no restriction? It's be a mess of deteriorating media, blowing and falling. There would also be constant competitive battles for dominance, and not just from guerilla media. Clear channel would be on there with ads for beer or whatever. From what I understand, as long as you are moving and carrying your sign, you won't be arrested.
    So they were in violation, clear and simple. After that, the police can arrest or cite, and the cite is going to require ID. If you refuse ID, then arrest is the only option short of ignoring the violation. The police were basically given little choice

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    I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I saw that video a week or so back. We are quite supportive of people's 1st amendment rights, but there are some restrictions that apply, and make sense. Hanging a sign from public property is restricted pretty much everywhere unless you get a permit first. What do you think that freeway crossing would look like if there was no restriction? It's be a mess of deteriorating media, blowing and falling. There would also be constant competitive battles for dominance, and not just from guerilla media. Clear channel would be on there with ads for beer or whatever. From what I understand, as long as you are moving and carrying your sign, you won't be arrested.
    So they were in violation, clear and simple. After that, the police can arrest or cite, and the cite is going to require ID. If you refuse ID, then arrest is the only option short of ignoring the violation. The police were basically given little choice
    Hey Save Our State,

    I agree with your opinion.

    Furthermore, it SEEMS apparent that Benjamin did not know the "ins and outs" of applying posters to public structures or for wearing masks in public. I don't know what the law is regarding those issues.

    Because OCers have paved the way for years now, and because a few have paid the price by being unlawfully arrested or illegally detained, we have a body of legal knowledge that includes federal constitutional law, federal case law, state law, state case law, and settlement agreements that clearly define what constitutes illegal activity by LEO while we OC or UOC. I read an old post that was resurected a few days ago--this movement has made huge progress. LEO has been forced to learn 4A case law and we have learned of many existing SCOTUS and inferior court rulings that enforce 4A and 2A. We also have new rulings that protect us.

    Here is my point:

    If you don't have case law and the penal code memorized for a situation like Benjamin faced, it is probably best to take the mask off, give your name, and cooperate with LEO.

    After the incident, you can use a legal or political venue to prove that LEO acted illegally. And, you won't have an arrest on your record which could jeopardize other rights that you have.

    The arresting LEO may have allowed Benjamin to leave with a warning had he cooperated (speculation on my part). Don't escalate a situation where you may be violating the law if you don't have your facts straight.

    markm

    PS: Thanks to all who have been illegally detained or arrested, thanks to those who have worked to educate LEO, thanks to all who have supported law suites against LEO, and thanks for this forum. Thanks to Jason Davis, Alan Gura and CalGuns.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hey Save Our State,

    I agree with your opinion.

    Furthermore, it SEEMS apparent that Benjamin did not know the "ins and outs" of applying posters to public structures or for wearing masks in public. I don't know what the law is regarding those issues.

    Because OCers have paved the way for years now, and because a few have paid the price by being unlawfully arrested or illegally detained, we have a body of legal knowledge that includes federal constitutional law, federal case law, state law, state case law, and settlement agreements that clearly define what constitutes illegal activity by LEO while we OC or UOC. I read an old post that was resurected a few days ago--this movement has made huge progress. LEO has been forced to learn 4A case law and we have learned of many existing SCOTUS and inferior court rulings that enforce 4A and 2A. We also have new rulings that protect us.

    Here is my point:

    If you don't have case law and the penal code memorized for a situation like Benjamin faced, it is probably best to take the mask off, give your name, and cooperate with LEO.

    After the incident, you can use a legal or political venue to prove that LEO acted illegally. And, you won't have an arrest on your record which could jeopardize other rights that you have.

    The arresting LEO may have allowed Benjamin to leave with a warning had he cooperated (speculation on my part). Don't escalate a situation where you may be violating the law if you don't have your facts straight.

    markm

    PS: Thanks to all who have been illegally detained or arrested, thanks to those who have worked to educate LEO, thanks to all who have supported law suites against LEO, and thanks for this forum. Thanks to Jason Davis, Alan Gura and CalGuns.
    CA PC 185: It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of:
    One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense.
    Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.

    The mask portion is absolute BS. They did not try to get away without being recognized. They stated clearly in the video that the mask were for "political theater" and their choice of masks support that (Guy Fawkes mask).

    They even went so far as to voluntarily remove the masks.

    I would like to know the exact PC or CVC (dealing with highway overpass) that they were charged with for "hanging a sign from a freeway overpass.

  8. #8
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Sorry for not adding enough detail to the original post. I was on my phone and in a hurry.

    What I saw in the arrest video was the police mindset. Everything is ok until you challenge LEO.

    In the vid you can hear the cop say he did nit have an issue with the sign. BUT invoke your right to not give up your papers and they are going to stick it to you!

    Keep an eye out for a Cal Guns press release this weekend.
    Hint hint.

    I have first hand experience with what happens when LEO don't like your LEGAL activity.





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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    The police were basically given little choice
    This is a bit of a hyperbole, right? The officers, had they any respect for individuals' rights, would have showed the two men the penal code and respectfully asked them to remove their signs (which they likely would have done). Then the tax payer wouldn't have had to pay for five cops to show up, take the time to file paperwork associated with their arrest, the time to prosecute them, and the time to punish them.

    Instead the police officers intentionally cited the mask code incorrectly, unlawfully detained them for failure to produce ID, and failed to inform the men that hanging signs from state property was unlawful. Nobody wins from the result aside from the cops who asserted their authority and showed that contempt of cop is still an arrestable offense.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanburbridge View Post
    In the vid you can hear the cop say he did nit have an issue with the sign. BUT invoke your right to not give up your papers and they are going to stick it to you!
    I gathered from that video that the cop meant he didn't have issue with the message on the sign; But he did have an issue with the attachment of it. Had you just been out walking down the street and not breaking a law, I'd say you were pretty much within your right to wear any mask and not present ID on demand. Instead, there was an argument over your rights, and that's not up to the cops to decide. That's for the court. A cite would have been issued had there been ID presented, and then you get your day in court. No ID, then arrest may be imminent. I'm not at all discouraging your incentive and attempt at being resourceful in excercizing your 1st amendment rights. That was, and continues to be a large tool in our box. But arguing with cops on the roadside is an improper venue. Courts are for arguments.
    I can tell you I personally have spent more hours than I can remember displaying signs in public, and specifically did many tours on the freeway and parking spots. I've been down this path, and have learned how to cope with the public rights of way. If the sign was and remains your main intent, then you can learn to cope with it too.

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    I stand corrected!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    This is a bit of a hyperbole, right? The officers, had they any respect for individuals' rights, would have showed the two men the penal code and respectfully asked them to remove their signs (which they likely would have done). Then the tax payer wouldn't have had to pay for five cops to show up, take the time to file paperwork associated with their arrest, the time to prosecute them, and the time to punish them.

    Instead the police officers intentionally cited the mask code incorrectly, unlawfully detained them for failure to produce ID, and failed to inform the men that hanging signs from state property was unlawful. Nobody wins from the result aside from the cops who asserted their authority and showed that contempt of cop is still an arrestable offense.
    Thanks Decoligny, Ryanburbridge, and Bigtoe:

    Thanks for clarifying this situation.

    What is the penalty for hanging a sign from a public place or overpass? Is it a citation or can LEO arrest someone? Again, I don't know the law.

    I am now thinking that we have another rogue copper who arrests a person first and then tries to find a PC section to hang the person with.

    Benjamin and his brother may have a 42 USC 1983 lawsuit. I hope they persue this and put forth a motion to lift qualified immunity protection from the LEO.

    First impressions are usually wrong; and most of us assume that LEO is here to protect and serve the law-abiding. More and more I learn that LEO is rogue and contemptable.

    This last weekend, I spoke with an on-duty Placer County Deputy Sherriff. He was at the China Wall snow machine parking lot on Forest Hill Divide Road. I was searching for a good spot to plink. I told him that I had first stopped at the Forest Service Ranger station to ask for a good plinking spot, but it was closed. The Deputy Sherrif first gave me the usuall speal about being 150 yards from buildings, campsites, parking lots, and the like. He then told me that I had to be 150 yards from any road.

    I stopped him and asked what Placer County ordinance makes that last point law. He could not answer. He stated that the Forest service rule does not have a prohibition of 150 yards from a road or body or water. He then said that he follows the "knuckle-head" rule. If a person is acting like a knuckle-head with guns he stops them. If they are acting responsibly, he does not care if the gun is loaded while on a road or not. (conversation paraphrased).

    I repied that he needs RAS to stop somebody. He nodded.

    The Deputy tried to put forth false information to me (He either miss-spoke or intentionally miss-quoted the law, I don't know which).

    He also told me where a good plinking spot was. I went there and had a good time.

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 05-05-2011 at 02:47 PM. Reason: typos.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Considering that this occurred in a police state, the most interesting part was the ******* cop broad saying you had to have your "papers" at 'all' times--just in case the NKVD stopped you. I wonder when they'll get around to passing out yellow Stars of David as the next step in 'serving and protecting' the power structure. Maybe they can pin some violation, like an offshoot of littering, for the sign. They can shove the mask "law" up their asses. The burden of proof is on the prosecutor to show their intent to mislead or evade pursuant to a crime being or about to be committed, per the statute, and it doesn't exist. My bet is nol prossed. And they drop whatever other charge they try and cook up if the guys make lawsuit noise, as well. The PDR at its best.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 05-05-2011 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post

    1 Instead, there was an argument over your rights, and that's not up to the cops to decide.

    2 That's for the court. A cite would have been issued had there been ID presented, and then you get your day in court.

    3 But arguing with cops on the roadside is an improper venue.

    4 Courts are for arguments.
    1 LEO have taken an oath to uphold the constitution. They should know the constitution like everyone els in this country. They make decisions everyday and could have seen this for what it was a protest. There power was challenged so they took away someones liberty and freedom (even if just temporarily)

    2 should we all have to spend 10,000 plus in legal fees just to exercise ones rights? Our servants in the courts and law have a DUTY not to bring undue charges against citizens just because they challenge ones authority.

    3 SHEEP and SUBJECTS! A free man will always question and argue if need be the over step of governments authority in our lives. Why should free men wait until they are behind bars before they stand up for ones rights.

    4 courts are for convicting people and sending people to jail for breaking laws (many unjust). Not to scare people into becoming subjects not willing to assert their freedoms. If you have been to court you know "Innocent until proven guilty" is a LIE. Once in court you must prove your innocents if you have enough money.


    IMO there was NO need for a arrest and unless we start defending one another from our servants in government NOW we will see our freedoms and liberties continue to be flushed away.


    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
    The mask portion is absolute BS. They did not try to get away without being recognized. They stated clearly in the video that the mask were for "political theater" and their choice of masks support that (Guy Fawkes mask).

    They even went so far as to voluntarily remove the masks.

    I would like to know the exact PC or CVC (dealing with highway overpass) that they were charged with for "hanging a sign from a freeway overpass.
    You are correct. The Yuba Sheriff's Deputies have failed to establish intent as an element to the crime they are charging the brothers with. The PC185 charge should be dismissed.
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    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    You are correct. The Yuba Sheriff's Deputies have failed to establish intent as an element to the crime they are charging the brothers with. The PC185 charge should be dismissed.
    The law reads:
    Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful
    for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal
    disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of:
    One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification
    in the commission of any public offense.

    They were evading identification in the commission of the public offense, no?

  16. #16
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    The law reads:
    Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful
    for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal
    disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of:
    One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification
    in the commission of any public offense.

    They were evading identification in the commission of the public offense, no?
    Can you ascertain by the video that their purpose of wearing masks was to evade or escape discovery, recognition, or identification?
    How does the fact that they removed their masks while voluntarily talking with the Sheriff Deputies support an alleged attempt to evade or escape identification?
    Does their refusal to provide photo ID have any bearing on PC185 once they removed their masks as so their faces could be seen by the deputies?

    The deputies in my opinion, were blending the refusal to provide photo ID (which is not a crime) with a statutory violation of PC185 without establishing the intent, which is an essential element of the crime.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  17. #17
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Can you ascertain by the video that their purpose of wearing masks was to evade or escape discovery, recognition, or identification?
    How does the fact that they removed their masks while voluntarily talking with the Sheriff Deputies support an alleged attempt to evade or escape identification?
    Does their refusal to provide photo ID have any bearing on PC185 once they removed their masks as so their faces could be seen by the deputies?

    The deputies in my opinion, were blending the refusal to provide photo ID (which is not a crime) with a statutory violation of PC185 without establishing the intent, which is an essential element of the crime.
    I don't think it was a good collar for them at all, but I also don't think it was terribly unreasonable for them to believe that the law was violated.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I don't think it was a good collar for them at all, but I also don't think it was terribly unreasonable for them to believe that the law was violated.
    I know when I'm attempting to hide my identity by wearing a mask, I usually show people my face voluntarily. But that's just me.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    I know when I'm attempting to hide my identity by wearing a mask, I usually show people my face voluntarily. But that's just me.
    At one point, there was a refusal to ID, and a refusal to unmask. I don't know that a prosecutor will proceed knowing that they later unmasked. Probably not. But the cops saw it differently at the time.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I don't think it was a good collar for them at all, but I also don't think it was terribly unreasonable for them to believe that the law was violated.
    Where's the "mens rea"? Did they purposefully know what they were doing was illegal? If so nothing illegal was done.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    If you folks would go back and pay close attention to the video you will hear the brothers reciting the text of PC185 back to the cops when they are threatened with arrest for violation of that code, specifically emphasizing the 'attempt to evade detection/identification' portion, then segueing into the statement that they had removed the masks upon request and therefore the purpose of the mask could not be in any way shape or form considered to be for the purpose that the cops were alleging.

    The brothers DID know the law and were NOT afoul of it....the cops just didn't care. Since they specifically stated that the masks were for political theater purposes, this video illustrates a clear violation of their first amendment rights...and constitutes a criminal violation of 18 USC 242, Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law.
    Last edited by Phssthpok; 05-06-2011 at 04:46 PM.

  22. #22
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    If the 602f arrest/citation was proper the addition of 185 is inconsequential and has no bearing on any 'rights' suppression. The issue now is to see if the DA files. The hanging of the sign was not done in the pressence of the officers (?) therefore the misdemeanor arrest may be impropper but that fact will not likely bear on the DA's decision to charge for the offence based on the evidence and the voluntary admissions of the accused.

    Moral of the story: Remain silent when questioned by police generally. And know the law. It looks like the officers were inclined to advise for the offence (602f) in exchange for their identification. When playing verbal jujitsu with the police better know that there is nothing legitimate one can be arrested for.
    Last edited by cato; 05-06-2011 at 05:56 PM.

  23. #23
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...&file=594-625c

    Misdemeanor 602.(f) PC Putting up, affixing, without permission, a notice or advertisement...

    Is 'taxation = theft' a 'notice' under that statute? If not a 'notice' is the sign 1st Amendment protected provided it was removed when they left so it would not be littering?

    Were the phones taken as evidence and later retrieved from the property clerk? Or never taken?

    Even if 602f doesn't apply there maybe another section which does and the complaint can be amended. Provided some statute lawfully applies to prohibit their conduct, the fact that the deputy got the section wrong has no bearing if the DA files a different section.

    The question of was the arrest itself proper if the deputy did not witness the misdemeanor offence (affixing) will still remain and could be actionable but where are the arrestees damages? The time it takes to sign a ticket?

    The detention time will be found reasonable for the purposes of investigation provided a lawful investigation was occurring. I believe RAS for an investigation of 602f existed clearly so no 4th A violation occured during the investgation/detention time frame.
    Last edited by cato; 05-06-2011 at 06:07 PM.

  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Misdemeanor 602.(f) PC Putting up, affixing, without permission, a notice or advertisement...

    Is 'taxation = theft' a 'notice' under that statute? If not a 'notice' is the sign 1st Amendment protected provided it was removed when they left so it would not be littering?
    Oooh, good reading sir. I missed that. I need to learn to read the entire law and analyze what the words mean before I come to a conclusion. One would think I would have figured that part out by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    The question of was the arrest itself proper if the deputy did not witness the misdemeanor offence (affixing) will still remain and could be actionable but where are the arrestees damages? The time it takes to sign a ticket?

    The detention time will be found reasonable for the purposes of investigation provided a lawful investigation was occurring. I believe RAS for an investigation of 602f existed clearly so no 4th A violation occured during the investgation/detention time frame.
    Right, but I thought the story said the men were arrested, taken to the station, written up, and released on their own recognizance. If that's the case then the officers obviously needed PC. From this we can conclude that if 602(f) didn't apply, then 185 is out as well. They have to find something to pin on them or the officers/department are on the hook for an unlawful arrest.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    I do appreciate everyone's input on this subject. It makes understanding ones rights more clear. I received an update from Benjamin posted below.

    To:ryanburbridge

    Awesome, thank you.

    We have retained what we believe to be a very good lawyer and have created a chipin for anyone interested in helping us.

    http://gmds.chipin.com/legal-funds-p...ft-sign-arrest

    So if you ever want, post a link to our chipin with our story

    Again, thank you


    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

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    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

    James Taranto

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