Fellow CA UOCer arrested.

Phssthpok · May 6, 2011

If you folks would go back and pay close attention to the video you will hear the brothers reciting the text of PC185 back to the cops when they are threatened with arrest for violation of that code, specifically emphasizing the 'attempt to evade detection/identification' portion, then segueing into the statement that they had removed the masks upon request and therefore the purpose of the mask could not be in any way shape or form considered to be for the purpose that the cops were alleging.

The brothers DID know the law and were NOT afoul of it....the cops just didn't care. Since they specifically stated that the masks were for political theater purposes, this video illustrates a clear violation of their first amendment rights...and constitutes a criminal violation of 18 USC 242, Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law.

cato · May 6, 2011

If the 602f arrest/citation was proper the addition of 185 is inconsequential and has no bearing on any 'rights' suppression. The issue now is to see if the DA files. The hanging of the sign was not done in the pressence of the officers (?) therefore the misdemeanor arrest may be impropper but that fact will not likely bear on the DA's decision to charge for the offence based on the evidence and the voluntary admissions of the accused.

Moral of the story: Remain silent when questioned by police generally. And know the law. It looks like the officers were inclined to advise for the offence (602f) in exchange for their identification. When playing verbal jujitsu with the police better know that there is nothing legitimate one can be arrested for.

cato · May 6, 2011

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=594-625c

Misdemeanor 602.(f) PC Putting up, affixing, without permission, a notice or advertisement...

Is 'taxation = theft' a 'notice' under that statute? If not a 'notice' is the sign 1st Amendment protected provided it was removed when they left so it would not be littering?

Were the phones taken as evidence and later retrieved from the property clerk? Or never taken?

Even if 602f doesn't apply there maybe another section which does and the complaint can be amended. Provided some statute lawfully applies to prohibit their conduct, the fact that the deputy got the section wrong has no bearing if the DA files a different section.

The question of was the arrest itself proper if the deputy did not witness the misdemeanor offence (affixing) will still remain and could be actionable but where are the arrestees damages? The time it takes to sign a ticket?

The detention time will be found reasonable for the purposes of investigation provided a lawful investigation was occurring. I believe RAS for an investigation of 602f existed clearly so no 4th A violation occured during the investgation/detention time frame.

bigtoe416 · May 6, 2011

cato said:
Misdemeanor 602.(f) PC Putting up, affixing, without permission, a notice or advertisement...

Is 'taxation = theft' a 'notice' under that statute? If not a 'notice' is the sign 1st Amendment protected provided it was removed when they left so it would not be littering?

Oooh, good reading sir. I missed that. I need to learn to read the entire law and analyze what the words mean before I come to a conclusion. One would think I would have figured that part out by now.

cato said:
The question of was the arrest itself proper if the deputy did not witness the misdemeanor offence (affixing) will still remain and could be actionable but where are the arrestees damages? The time it takes to sign a ticket?

The detention time will be found reasonable for the purposes of investigation provided a lawful investigation was occurring. I believe RAS for an investigation of 602f existed clearly so no 4th A violation occured during the investgation/detention time frame.

Right, but I thought the story said the men were arrested, taken to the station, written up, and released on their own recognizance. If that's the case then the officers obviously needed PC. From this we can conclude that if 602(f) didn't apply, then 185 is out as well. They have to find something to pin on them or the officers/department are on the hook for an unlawful arrest.

ryanburbridge · May 6, 2011

I do appreciate everyone's input on this subject. It makes understanding ones rights more clear. I received an update from Benjamin posted below.

To:ryanburbridge

Awesome, thank you.

We have retained what we believe to be a very good lawyer and have created a chipin for anyone interested in helping us.

http://gmds.chipin.com/legal-funds-pertaining-to-the-taxestheft-sign-arrest

So if you ever want, post a link to our chipin with our story

Again, thank you

"If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

James Taranto

Ca Patriot · May 7, 2011

If you posted this video on Cal Guns they would remove it, haha.

What has America become ? A police state.

Freedom ? No

Liberty ? No

Whats a crime today ? Everything

--Moderator Edited--
Deleted LEO bashing.

Save Our State · May 7, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
If you posted this video on Cal Guns they would remove it, haha.

What has America become ? A police state.

Freedom ? No

Liberty ? No

Whats a crime today ? Everything

--Moderator Edited--
Deleted LEO bashing.

While there is evidence of police state behaviour in America these days, I do not believe this is such. It is my opinion that had the sign not been attached, and the protesters just carrying it, the police would have made contact and then moved on. What happened instead was a devolving tit-for-tat, escalating argument that detracted from the main defense of 1st amendment activity. If you get into a situation like this, I find it best to try defusing it first. I think the opposite occurred here. We have lost liberty I think, but just a little, and mostly because of increased population, We still have rights though, and we can use them to keep what liberty we still have, and to pull back some that we've lost.

Ca Patriot · May 7, 2011

Whats the definition of cop bashing ? Websters dictionary defines it as "an accurate portrayal of real police actions caught on audio and video"

You can delete my words and call them "cop bashing" but I will call it "describing reality".

It must be nice for a cop to have an entire police force and DA to make sure you are never prosecuted for your crimes and it must be even nicer to have internet bulletin boards aid and abet law breaking "law enforcement".

Cal Guns and Open Carry must be run by the same people.

ConditionThree · May 7, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
Cal Guns and Open Carry must be run by the same people.

Yes, they are- If you mean that they are both run by people who wish to maintain some credibility among law enforcement by not alienating them with unecessary or overly strident criticism.

Save Our State · May 8, 2011

Real men do their cop bashing in front of the police station

Publius · May 8, 2011

Save Our State said:
It is my opinion that had the sign not been attached, and the protesters just carrying it, the police would have made contact and then moved on.

As stated in the video, had the Officers told us the sign couldn't be affixed, we would have untied the overhand knots and held it instead. It was only tied, because it caused no damage to do so and saved us the effort of hold what was a heavy sign.

bigtoe416 · May 8, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
Cal Guns and Open Carry must be run by the same people.

The only person that happens to have a lot of sway at opencarry (moderator here) and CGN ("contributor" there) is Gray Peterson, but who knows which admin edited your post.

Historically the California sub-forum has done a great job at self-policing itself. Lately though it seems there is more and more moderator interaction. Perhaps we've become unruly, or perhaps the moderators have become more empowered to ensure that they enforce the rules. I personally felt that the thread on my case getting locked was a bit much. I also felt that the self-policing of the board "back in the day" made for people being much more involved in preventing this sub-forum from becoming unruly or hostile to any group of people.

While moderated messages help enforce the rules, it doesn't help users of the forum from determining who is unruly and who isn't. Censoring messages also doesn't help users determine if moderators are acting in a way that is fair. Personally I'd rather see what Ca Patriot wrote, see a moderator quoting the rules and saying that he's crossed a line, and for others to see what crossing the line is. Just my two cents.

Ca Patriot · May 8, 2011

ConditionThree said:
Yes, they are- If you mean that they are both run by people who wish to maintain some credibility among law enforcement by not alienating them with unecessary or overly strident criticism.

I can see the headline now "Kamala Harris, Sheriff Lee Baca and the City of San Francisco decide to drop opposition to guns due to gun websites flattering portryal of police officers caught violating citizens rights"

Go ahead and try to supress honest and acurate descriptions of criminal police officers and see how much it helps you win any "credibility" with police. See how many rights they decide to give back to you because you edited my comments about sworn officers of the law breaking the law.

ConditionThree · May 8, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
Go ahead and try to supress honest and acurate descriptions of criminal police officers and see how much it helps you win any "credibility" with police. See how many rights they decide to give back to you because you edited my comments about sworn officers of the law breaking the law.

Just FYI: I have exactly zero moderator ability here. I'm just one of the little people.

Robin47 · May 8, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
I can see the headline now "Kamala Harris, Sheriff Lee Baca and the City of San Francisco decide to drop opposition to guns due to gun websites flattering portryal of police officers caught violating citizens rights"

Go ahead and try to supress honest and acurate descriptions of criminal police officers and see how much it helps you win any "credibility" with police. See how many rights they decide to give back to you because you edited my comments about sworn officers of the law breaking the law.

"Credibility" Is the key word !
I think what we need to do is vote and fight for good Sheriff's who do know the Constitution and have the guts to stand by it at all cost !
Corruption in low levels, will destroy our country, think about it ! Robin47

Ca Patriot · May 8, 2011

Robin47 said:
"Credibility" Is the key word !
I think what we need to do is vote and fight for good Sheriff's who do know the Constitution and have the guts to stand by it at all cost !
Corruption in low levels, will destroy our country, think about it ! Robin47

This is California, that war was lost about 20 years ago.

Its why I am moving out of this state in November to where there is no sales tax and much much much fewer laws. I am moving back to Montana where the government doesnt make a criminal out of everyone.

In my opinion California is a lost cause and not a great place to live.

Personally I woldnt waste my time trying to get the government here to give you back any gun rights or any of your money.

Robin47 · May 8, 2011

Ca Patriot said:
This is California, that war was lost about 20 years ago.

Its why I am moving out of this state in November to where there is no sales tax and much much much fewer laws. I am moving back to Montana where the government doesnt make a criminal out of everyone.

In my opinion California is a lost cause and not a great place to live.

Personally I woldnt waste my time trying to get the government here to give you back any gun rights or any of your money.

Yep know what you mean, me and the wife are also looking to Arizona or Nevada, Montana is great to but we are
tired of the cold, and to old now to fight the weather.
Besides our kids are all down south. Good move to Montana friend !

Robin47

Publius · May 8, 2011

Have you thought about New Hampshire and the Free State Project? My brother and I have pledged to move there as part of the FSP, something we will are even more eager to do after being arrested for a sign / filming police.

Here are 101+ reasons to move to New Hampshire http://freestateproject.org/files/101-Reasons-to-Move-to-NH.pdf

ConditionThree · May 8, 2011

Off topic.

Publius said:
Have you thought about New Hampshire and the Free State Project? My brother and I have pledged to move there as part of the FSP, something we will are even more eager to do after being arrested for a sign / filming police.

Here are 101+ reasons to move to New Hampshire http://freestateproject.org/files/101-Reasons-to-Move-to-NH.pdf

If freedom loving people abandon California for New Hampshire, who will stand watch for liberty with me?

Publius · May 8, 2011

ConditionThree said:
If freedom loving people abandon California for New Hampshire, who will stand watch for liberty with me?

IDK

I view it as leaving a burning house, so that you can return later to rebuild. Staying in the burning house does you no good. I am just trying to get myself and as many others out while I can, the activism I have done is an attempt at a stall tactic to buy others more time to get out.

Fellow CA UOCer arrested.

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