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Thread: Denver's Exception to OC

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Denver's Exception to OC

    Howdy Folks!
    I have spent quite a bit of time reading the Meyers Decision, in which the City of Denver got judicial support for their contention that they were not subject to the State of Colorado premption language.

    My curiosity peaked, because I do not see how that decision would exempt the city/county of Denver from adherence to the language of the Constitution: Article 2, Sections 3 and 13.

    Yes, Denver made a case that their exemption based on Article XX had validity, but I still don't get how it can exist contrary to Article 2. Aside from that, the decision runs contrary to the U.S. Constitution 2nd Amendment.

    While the state made their own argument regarding state's interest, and Denver prevailed making their case based on City interest, there appears to be obvious and compelling argument that any city must have laws consistent with both the State and Federal Constitutions. While the State of Colorado may have failed to demonstrate superior state interest, there still remains the whole Constitutional issue of the 2nd Amendment.

    Much of the City of Denver's contention that it should be expempt from preemption was based on the urban nature of Denver itself, and that Denver had a compelling interest in maintaining their expemption. The judge in the Meyers case agreed. It appears that the state relented.

    Living proximal to Denver, as I do; and considering that tendrils of Denver run hither and yon in an almost incoherent manner, the otherwise law abiding citizen could easily cross into Denver territory (and into areas that could not possibly be construed as 'urban') without knowledge of having done so. That individual could be subject to infringement into Denver's territory and subjected to prosecution for what otherwise would be lawful carrying of a firearm. (assuming no permit/open carry)

    I'd like to note here that Montbello, Green Valley Ranch, and similar areas are not what one would consider "urban"; at least in the sense of the downtown area or neighborhoods proximal to the city center.

    While I intend to start immediately into classes with my wife so we can secure our permits, I am just puzzled at how Denver can assert itself as immune to Constitutional provisions of both the State and Federal governments.

    Anybody got any illumination on this topic?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    It wasn't really that Denver won the supreme court case. The decision was 3-3 with one judge that would have rules against Denver having to recuse herself. So, it was a tie and thus the status quo remained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I have spent quite a bit of time reading the Meyers Decision, in which the City of Denver got judicial support for their contention that they were not subject to the State of Colorado premption language.

    My curiosity peaked, because I do not see how that decision would exempt the city/county of Denver from adherence to the language of the Constitution: Article 2, Sections 3 and 13.

    Yes, Denver made a case that their exemption based on Article XX had validity, but I still don't get how it can exist contrary to Article 2. Aside from that, the decision runs contrary to the U.S. Constitution 2nd Amendment.

    While the state made their own argument regarding state's interest, and Denver prevailed making their case based on City interest, there appears to be obvious and compelling argument that any city must have laws consistent with both the State and Federal Constitutions. While the State of Colorado may have failed to demonstrate superior state interest, there still remains the whole Constitutional issue of the 2nd Amendment.

    Much of the City of Denver's contention that it should be expempt from preemption was based on the urban nature of Denver itself, and that Denver had a compelling interest in maintaining their expemption. The judge in the Meyers case agreed. It appears that the state relented.

    Living proximal to Denver, as I do; and considering that tendrils of Denver run hither and yon in an almost incoherent manner, the otherwise law abiding citizen could easily cross into Denver territory (and into areas that could not possibly be construed as 'urban') without knowledge of having done so. That individual could be subject to infringement into Denver's territory and subjected to prosecution for what otherwise would be lawful carrying of a firearm. (assuming no permit/open carry)

    I'd like to note here that Montbello, Green Valley Ranch, and similar areas are not what one would consider "urban"; at least in the sense of the downtown area or neighborhoods proximal to the city center.

    While I intend to start immediately into classes with my wife so we can secure our permits, I am just puzzled at how Denver can assert itself as immune to Constitutional provisions of both the State and Federal governments.

    Anybody got any illumination on this topic?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    do you always talk like this? are you the guy who stands on the corner of alameda and havana with the big Jesus Saves sign?

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    do you always talk like this? are you the guy who stands on the corner of alameda and havana with the big Jesus Saves sign?
    Howdy Bomber!
    I've seen a couple of your posts, and see you are generally disrespectful of others.
    That being said, no. I don't carry Jesus signs of any stripe.
    Besides which, if I did, that would also be my Constitutional right.
    So what have you against the language of the Constitution?
    And just out of curiosity, what makes you think I'm even a Christian to begin with?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    I have spent quite a bit of time reading the Meyers Decision, in which the City of Denver got judicial support for their contention that they were not subject to the State of Colorado premption language.

    My curiosity peaked, because I do not see how that decision would exempt the city/county of Denver from adherence to the language of the Constitution: Article 2, Sections 3 and 13.

    Yes, Denver made a case that their exemption based on Article XX had validity, but I still don't get how it can exist contrary to Article 2. Aside from that, the decision runs contrary to the U.S. Constitution 2nd Amendment.

    While the state made their own argument regarding state's interest, and Denver prevailed making their case based on City interest, there appears to be obvious and compelling argument that any city must have laws consistent with both the State and Federal Constitutions. While the State of Colorado may have failed to demonstrate superior state interest, there still remains the whole Constitutional issue of the 2nd Amendment.

    Much of the City of Denver's contention that it should be expempt from preemption was based on the urban nature of Denver itself, and that Denver had a compelling interest in maintaining their expemption. The judge in the Meyers case agreed. It appears that the state relented.

    Living proximal to Denver, as I do; and considering that tendrils of Denver run hither and yon in an almost incoherent manner, the otherwise law abiding citizen could easily cross into Denver territory (and into areas that could not possibly be construed as 'urban') without knowledge of having done so. That individual could be subject to infringement into Denver's territory and subjected to prosecution for what otherwise would be lawful carrying of a firearm. (assuming no permit/open carry)

    I'd like to note here that Montbello, Green Valley Ranch, and similar areas are not what one would consider "urban"; at least in the sense of the downtown area or neighborhoods proximal to the city center.

    While I intend to start immediately into classes with my wife so we can secure our permits, I am just puzzled at how Denver can assert itself as immune to Constitutional provisions of both the State and Federal governments.

    Anybody got any illumination on this topic?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Yes. A sinkhole should open and swallow Denver, pulling in Boulder, and then close. That would solve 99% of the state's problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Bomber!
    I've seen a couple of your posts, and see you are generally disrespectful of others.
    That being said, no. I don't carry Jesus signs of any stripe.
    Besides which, if I did, that would also be my Constitutional right.
    So what have you against the language of the Constitution?
    And just out of curiosity, what makes you think I'm even a Christian to begin with?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    you just seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner with a big sign.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    you just seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner with a big sign.
    Howdy Again Bomber!
    A: Your opinion matters nothing to me whatsoever.
    B: You don't know me from Adam.
    C: Are rather arrogant in the belief you should judge anybody else.
    D: Welcome to leave your attitude elsewhere.

    Have a terrific day.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    you just seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner with a big sign.
    And you seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner and loudly talk to yourself about why every person who walks by p!$$e$ you off. So? What's the difference between standing on a corner with a big sign and having a YouTube channel with a Mexican lucha libre mask?
    Last edited by mahkagari; 05-10-2011 at 03:07 PM.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Yes. A sinkhole should open and swallow Denver, pulling in Boulder, and then close. That would solve 99% of the state's problems.
    Howdy Gunslinger!
    I do not always agree with everything you say, but on this particular point, I wholeheartedly agree.

    And it isn't just the preemption that bothers me about Denver either. It is the frequent report of execessive force being used by DPD officers that is really alarming. Incidents where citizens were beaten to a bloody (literally) pulp by officers for reasons that appear purely spurious. The case of the guy walking his dog to a local park who ended up beaten and hospitalized for no apparent reason. The fellow who saw another citizen being abused while being arrested and was thrown to the ground because he was using his cellphone to report the incident to a 3rd party. While I believe the vast majority of DPD officers are good and faithful servants of the public interest, there are some that cast a deep, dark shadow over the rest.

    But beyond that, many of the problems that afflict Colorado are definately caused by Denver. The state is all but bankrupt. Could that have anything to do with taxpayers getting saddled with a new airport, relocating Eliches or maybe popping for a new baseball stadium and football stadium? Or how about selling off the names to those stadiums, i.e. Invesco Field. Gimme a break. Very weathy individuals get new toys and stick the taxpayer with the tab. Not only that, we're expected to tip well for the service. Meanwhile, schools are closing and services to citizens get cut because of budgetary constraints. No wonder Denver doesn't much hanker to see their citizens armed. That could lead to them demanding something akin to respect.

    And don't even get me started on the whole "sanctuary city" thing, or I'll be typing all day! No, I am not against immigration. I am against illegal activity but even more staunchly opposed to aiding and abetting illegal activity.

    Anyhow, I didn't intend to get on a soapbox this morning, but can agree most emphatically with your sentiment. Many of our state's problems are based out of Denver, with Boulder running a real close second.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-11-2011 at 11:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    And you seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner and loudly talk to yourself about why every person who walks by p!$$e$ you off. So? What's the difference between standing on a corner with a big sign and having a YouTube channel with a Mexican lucha libre mask?

    oh you noticed..... did you subscribe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Again Bomber!
    A: Your opinion matters nothing to me whatsoever.
    B: You don't know me from Adam.
    C: Are rather arrogant in the belief you should judge anybody else.
    D: Welcome to leave your attitude elsewhere.

    Have a terrific day.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    i'm not judging, i'm just asking questions

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Anybody got any illumination on this topic?
    Logically, after the Heller and McDonald SCOTUS decisions, all state and local governments should have immediately acknowledged the individual right to keep and bear arms in public places, openly carried or concealed.

    Unfortunately, the legal system as we know it is not logical. To paraphrase Michael Connelly, the law is not about truth; it's about negotiation, amelioration, and manipulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    you just seem like maybe the kind of guy that would stand on a corner with a big sign.
    If he's verbose, it's because he's a writer. I had the pleasure of having breakfast with him last week, though, and he's a nice guy.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    My curiosity peaked, because I do not see how that decision would exempt the city/county of Denver from adherence to the language of the Constitution: Article 2, Sections 3 and 13.

    Yes, Denver made a case that their exemption based on Article XX had validity, but I still don't get how it can exist contrary to Article 2. Aside from that, the decision runs contrary to the U.S. Constitution 2nd Amendment.
    I'm not quite sure how any state can counter a Constitutional right.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I'm not quite sure how any state can counter a Constitutional right.
    Easily, regarding the bill of rights, which originally only restricted the federal government. Now after centuries of legal wrangling, some of them apply to state and local governments, some still don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    If he's verbose, it's because he's a writer. I had the pleasure of having breakfast with him last week, though, and he's a nice guy.
    what does he write?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    what does he write?
    Don't recall. He just said he was a writer, and as a writer myself, it's clear he does. Most people write about as well as most people can fly a plane. It's obvious when it comes to those who really can fly an airplane.

    ^^^That's^^^ how most people write, totally off the cuff, with little editing. Here's how a writer writes:

    I don't recall him mentioning his particular field over breakfast. He simply said he was a writer, and as a writer myself, his own writing strikes me as being genuine. Most people write about as well as they can fly an airplane. It's obvious whether or not someone's a pilot when they get behind the yoke. Real pilots are smooth and grease the landings, while those who aren't real pilots are all over the sky, and occasionally crash and burn. Much the same is true with professional writers.

    As you can see, the way a professional writes is often more verbose than your average writer. It doesn't have to be, but a few extra words cost but a little extra time, and often add much.

    On the other hand, other types of professional writers communicate in much shorter form, often in character (novel) or to establish a memorable jingle (advertising).

    Example:

    Don't recall. He said he was a writer. It's like flying a plane. Telling who can and and can't is easy for most, but more so for trained pilots.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    This got a little distracted from the original intent of the thread regarding Denver's exception to preemption. That being said (and I doubt it ever was, really), I make my living as a driver for a local corporation that I've enjoyed for about 7 years now. That may need to change soon as I am not being returned to full duty following a personal injury on the job. But that is another story entirely.

    The question of my writing having been raised, it is what I do. More of an avocation than 'job', it still requires a great deal of work! All those pesky nouns, vowels, adjectives and adverbs just make the chore somewhat more chorelike!

    I have been published both domestically and internationally. My writing has varied from magazine articles to those published in newspapers and newsletters. I've written news articles, fictional stories, human interest, humor, and presently have several novels in the works. When inspired, writing can be fun and entertaining for the author. When ideas don't flow well, it becomes laborious beyond belief.

    As I become more a part of the OC community, it is very likely I will write articles and essays for this particular aspect of my life. A good writer will tend to write about what he knows. At this point, I don't know enough to be completely articulate when addressing OC. Give it another six months, and you'll likely start seeing articles authored by me published in a variety of media in support of 2a rights.

    While a good handgun is a deadly weapon, and so is the ability of the writer who knows his topic. This brings to mind a movie I saw once entitled "Pentagon Wars". The hero sits down to his typewriter and says he is going to inflict "Paper cuts. Deadly paper cuts!" Based on a true story, one man stood against the powers of the pentagon to do his part to save the lives of soldiers riding into battle aboard the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. But I digress. The point is, a writer can have an powerful impact. One of the finest American writers gave us that second amendment, and it still rings down through the years with power we hold dear today. That, too, is another story.

    When I finally do begin writing about 2a issues and OC, I expect any pieces I produce to prove compelling and articulate. It is what I do. Perhaps, in some small way, I too can also inflict some deadly paper cuts against those who would usurp our precious rights and liberties!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-18-2011 at 12:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    This got a little distracted from the original intent of the thread regarding Denver's exception to preemption. That being said (and I doubt it ever was, really), I make my living as a driver for a local corporation that I've enjoyed for about 7 years now. That may need to change soon as I am not being returned to full duty following a personal injury on the job. But that is another story entirely.

    The question of my writing having been raised, it is what I do. More of an avocation than 'job', it still requires a great deal of work! All those pesky nouns, vowels, adjectives and adverbs just make the chore somewhat more chorelike!

    I have been published both domestically and internationally. My writing has varied from magazine articles to those published in newspapers and newsletters. I've written news articles, fictional stories, human interest, humor, and presently have several novels in the works. When inspired, writing can be fun and entertaining for the author. When ideas don't flow well, it becomes laborious beyond belief.

    As I become more a part of the OC community, it is very likely I will write articles and essays for this particular aspect of my life. A good writer will tend to write about what he knows. At this point, I don't know enough to be completely articulate when addressing OC. Give it another six months, and you'll likely start seeing articles authored by me published in a variety of media in support of 2a rights.

    While a good handgun is a deadly weapon, and so is the ability of the writer who knows his topic. This brings to mind a movie I saw once entitled "Pentagon Wars". The hero sits down to his typewriter and says he is going to inflict "Paper cuts. Deadly paper cuts!" Based on a true story, one man stood against the powers of the pentagon to do his part to save the lives of soldiers riding into battle aboard the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. But I digress. The point is, a writer can have an powerful impact. One of the finest American writers gave us that second amendment, and it still rings down through the years with power we hold dear today. That, too, is another story.

    When I finally do begin writing about 2a issues and OC, I expect any pieces I produce to prove compelling and articulate. It is what I do. Perhaps, in some small way, I too can also inflict some deadly paper cuts against those who would usurp our precious rights and liberties!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    100 internet points if you can explain the reference in the picture


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    Regular Member RandallFlagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    100 internet points if you can explain the reference in the picture

    Michelle Obama right before the Presidential limo bottomed out at the Dublin Embassy?
    (Sorry. My first post here and I might have already blown it. It's just a joke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    About a fifth of Colorado's population lives in and around Denver.
    It depends how big a circle you draw, but the metro area is probably closer to half the population of Colorado.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver-...atistical_Area

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    When considering why Denver is exempt from preemption, we need to remember that this wasn't based on a vote of the citizens. We can amend our constitution in Colorado by referrendum. A city ordinance, however, is the work of the city council and does not necessarily reflect the will of the electorate.

    As for the population of Denver, it had a population of 600,158 residents in 2010. The census bureau estimated Colorado to have a population of 5,024,748 in 2009. Denver is the largest city within 600 miles. It is also the flatest city, sitting on a level plain at the base of the Rocky Mountain front range.

    Denver receives 300 days of sunshine a year (none of which we've enjoyed lately!!!)
    Denver is the nation's most highly educated city with the highest percentage of high school and college graduates.
    Denver brews more beer than any other American city. (Rocky Mountain Soda Pop.... Coors!)
    Denver has the largest city park system in the nation with 205 parks in city limits and 20,000 acres of parks in the nearby mountains.
    Denver is the "Baby Boomer" capital of America with the highest percentage of boomers of any major U.S. city.
    Denver is 20th in the U.S. in population, but has the 10th largest downtown in terms of office space and retail space.
    Denver has the nation's second largest performing arts center. The Denver Performing Arts Complex has eight theaters seating over 9,000 people.
    Denver citizens contribute more public funding for the arts per capita than any other U.S. city.
    Denver has the thinnest residents of any U.S. city, according to a federal study.
    Denver really is a mile high. There's a spot on the west steps of the State Capitol building that is exactly 5,280 feet above sea level.

    To the above may be added that Denver has traditionally been looked upon as a "Cow Town" and that's an image that causes many in government here to bristle profusely. It has much to do with our new megalithic airport, new sports stadiums, and spectacular expenditure of treasure to shake that image. In essence, Denver badly wants to dump that cow town image and be regarded as a vibrant, modern, technologically advanced city. I believe their resistence to open carry has more to do with Denver wanting to shed that cow town image where citizens all carry shooting irons as they did in earlier days than with any liberal or conservative bias. Denver doesn't seem to have issues with concealed carry, mind you. Just open carry and their sensitivities about how it might look to the touristas. While Denver certainly is a vibrant, modern and technologically advanced city; I believe it still suffers from a latent inferiority complex at governmental levels. At the very least, it appears they have a self esteem issue of municipal proportions.

    Then again, that's just my own belief and I can't back that up with evidence. It's like trying to document the usefulness of a flood at the Alka Seltzer factory!

    Meanwhile, I'll strap on my pistol, don my Stetson, and stay clear of Denver.
    Oh, wait... I tend to do that now anyhow!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-25-2011 at 11:30 AM.

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    Damn, you're been reading!

    Over more than 35 years I've never been denied a job, nor fired for one, and am honorably retired and highly-decorated USAF veteran, yet am being "non-renewed for a lease" on an apartment complex."

    What gives? Is it my pony tail or the fact that I open carry?

    I'm being asked to leave Grand River Canyon, courtesy of their parent company Griffis Blessing. Cost to myself courtesy of "2 men and a truck," is more than $2,000 dollars (their assessor was here last week).

    Yes, I'm being "evicted," though that's not the term they are choosing to use. It's "we've chosen not to renew your lease." Yeah, well, given the fact you after 30 days of written notice requesting a reason as to why you've simply refuse to answer why, you're on the hook for all possible reasons.

    I fought for my country, and have owned multiple homes, have never been denied a job, and have served and honorably retired as a veteran officer.

    With these folks, all that apparently doesn't matter.

    Is it because I instituted a CSPD-sanctioned Neighborhood Watch on the complex a few months after I moved here, in response to a bevy of car break-ins?

    If Griffiss "Blessing" cannot stand honest, law-abiding citizens living among their midst, then perhaps we honest, law-abiding citizens should give them far less of our business., as in zilch, zero, nada, none, and move to other apartment complexes which respect the rights for which we've fought over the years.
    Last edited by since9; 05-28-2011 at 03:32 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  25. #25
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    It is refreshing to be exposed to sincere thoughtfulness, honest reflection, and humility for a change on this forum - rather than ego contests. It is obviously contagious because the replies to this thread indicate that it is catching on.

    People living in so-called civilized environments are prone to behaving like sheep.
    Because they behave like sheep - they are regularly "fleeced" by their government and the criminal element that the government is unable to eliminate.

    The right to bear arms is much like the right to expression. The two rights actually go hand in hand. One can not long exist without the other. The "open carrier" is in essence a "sheep dog". When the "sheep dog" succeeds in convincing the "sheep" that his/her presence enhances the survival prospects of the "herd" - he/she will be welcomed.

    We "sheep dogs" already understand the principle. I see it everyday. I am not molested, disrespected, or preyed upon. I threaten no one, intimidate no one but abusers, potential bullies, and opportunistic predators. I am polite, congenial, deferential, and very respecful of others. I "open carry".

    We are all here on planet earth because our ancestors WERE NOT "sheep". Think about that for a moment.

    Liberty is taken away a layer at a time - until none remains. It is time to revisit the Meyers decision.

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