My buddy's lesson around VCU last night.

Blk97F150 said:

Was their 'coordinated manuvers' illegal? What exactly should the police have done once they got there?

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Calm down a second.

First, their coordinated manuver has such a strong implication for robbery as to approach guarantee. The likelihood of a genuinely innocent explanation for the totality of circumstances is nearly non-existent.

The actual manuver does not need to be illegal in and of itself to justify alerting police. If actual observed illegality were the standard, there would be no such thing as RAS, nor Terry Stops.

Police response can take, I imagine, a range of actions. Perhaps they don't come at all, focusing on higher-priority calls. Perhaps they come and take descriptions of the suspects. Perhaps while driving around later on patrol, the police come across the two and initiate a consensual encounter that ripens into RAS for a variety of reasons. Maybe even into probable cause. Perhaps the consensual encounter alerts the suspects that the police are onto them, and they had better suspend their predation for a little while. There are a number of possibilities.

Was their 'coordinated manuvers' illegal? What exactly should the police have done once they got there?

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Agreed. And when you tell the cops that you warned the 2 that you were armed, you have just confessed to brandishing.

Which it seems Virginia is not real fond of..

xd shooter said:

Agreed. And when you tell the cops that you warned the 2 that you were armed, you have just confessed to brandishing.

Which it seems Virginia is not real fond of..

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I don't recall anyone advocating telling the polic about the brandishing part. Or, were you just phrasing it that way to make a point? (a valid point with which I agree).

ETA: Although, I wonder if it would actually be brandishing. Does not the VA statute make an exception for self-defense? This of course leads into the question about disparity of force and that sort of thing. But, for the moment, I'm just wondering if it is clearly brandishing.

user said:

Announcing one's armed status is a good way of getting one's self killed. He'd have done better to just make eye contact and say, "How y'all doin' this evenin'?"

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Why would you say, just curious.

Citizen said:

I don't recall anyone advocating telling the polic about the brandishing part. Or, were you just phrasing it that way to make a point? (a valid point with which I agree).

ETA: Although, I wonder if it would actually be brandishing. Does not the VA statute make an exception for self-defense? This of course leads into the question about disparity of force and that sort of thing. But, for the moment, I'm just wondering if it is clearly brandishing.

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In any other city I might agree with Citizen but I've listened to the City Dispatchers actually laugh about such calls on the air "And he was afraid".

Thatpart of town is extremely dangerous but getting a police response, let alone a positive response, is improbable at best.

Sometimes it's best to quietly walk away.

i was going to type a smart-ass response to some, but i will just say this....

some of you take things and blow them way out of proportion. Maybe i didnt explain the situation well enough for some to understand... or maybe some of you are reading wayyy further inbetween the pixels than you need to be.

"well, what if these two shadow-lurkers just wanted directions, so they were waiting outside at 2am for a person to walk by so they could just ask for directions. that kid had no right to BRANDISH his FIREARM."

you sound like the enemy....

that is all.

As some in VA seem to have a VERY broad definition of "brandishing", It could be construed as such.

As far as "telling" the police, what do you say when they ask why the "bad" guys left? You showed them your muscles?

It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearmor any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance,whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably inducefear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operatedweapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in themind of another of being shot or injured.

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I think his statement of "hold it right there, that is a bad idea for you... im carrying" qualifies as intent to scare.

My point is, agreeing with Blk97F150, calling the cops would not have gained him anything, nothing the "bad" guys did was illegal, but POSSIBLY his statement could be used for a brandishing charge.

I think the OP did nothing wrong, in fact he noticed a possible issue, his SA was up, he reholstered and protected himself and his GF. Good night, all is well. No need to call the cops, the bad guys got the message!

im sure there is a clause about being in a position of fearing for one's life....and where "brandishing" wouldnt be "brandishing"

are you supposed to have a fist implanted in your face or a shank in your side before you act?

Actually i think if he was in fear for his life, he should have actually pulled the weapon.

Obviously this was not the case.

However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

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Was this justifiable self defense?

I wouldn't think of being out in that area that late without being armed. I hope he learned a lesson about selective carrying, as you said. If you believe your life is worth protecting somewhere, it's generally worth protecting anywhere.

Hopefully he rethinks leaving valuables, especially a gun, in the car as well. This story was just posted:

http://www.nbc12.com/story/14590768/richmond-bar-patrons-targeted-by-thieves-who-steal-from-cars

xd shooter said:

Was this justifiable self defense?

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English common law:
The "doctrine of competing harms" and the "doctrine of necessity."
Put very simply, you are allowed to break the law (in this instance: brandish), in the rare circumstances where following the law (i.e. not brandishing) would cause more injury to you or other innocent humans than would breaking it.

Are you CERTAIN that he was going to come to some harm?

Again, if he felt that self defense was justified, he should have pulled his gun.

xd shooter said:

SNIP Are you CERTAIN that he was going to come to some harm?

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I am. Double-check the circumstances in the OP. Two guys. Widely spaced apart. Standing in shadows. Among parked cars. After dark. Both appear and move toward the OP.

Regarding pulling the gun if he felt he was in genuine danger, lets not confuse a rule designed to dissuade poor thinkers from pulling prematurely with a measured response. I'm not saying he was correct in making verbal reference to the gun; I'm saying lets not over-apply the rule of thumb.

Thanks for clearing up the question about VA's brandishing statute.

xd shooter said:

Was this justifiable self defense?

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If one is caused to be in fear of death or serious bodily harm .................

What would a reasonable person do in a similar circumstance given the facts as presented?

Citizen said:

Calm down a second.

First, their coordinated manuver has such a strong implication for robbery as to approach guarantee. The likelihood of a genuinely innocent explanation for the totality of circumstances is nearly non-existent.

The actual manuver does not need to be illegal in and of itself to justify alerting police. If actual observed illegality were the standard, there would be no such thing as RAS, nor Terry Stops.

Police response can take, I imagine, a range of actions. Perhaps they don't come at all, focusing on higher-priority calls. Perhaps they come and take descriptions of the suspects. Perhaps while driving around later on patrol, the police come across the two and initiate a consensual encounter that ripens into RAS for a variety of reasons. Maybe even into probable cause. Perhaps the consensual encounter alerts the suspects that the police are onto them, and they had better suspend their predation for a little while. There are a number of possibilities.

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Everyone is missing the most important point.

The bad guys approached the OP TWICE.

The first time, he suspected a problem.

The second time, he knew he was about to have a problem.

Once....maybe a false alarm.

Twice???

Brandishing a Human

While recognizing that the law is the law, I find this part incongruous.

The primary element in the offense of brandishing a weapon is the reasonable inducement of fear in the mind of another. It is not necessary that the "brandisher" intended to induce fear; it is only necessary that the "victim" reasonably experienced fear ... or says that he did. It appears that the reasonable inducement of fear is the actual offensive act. Even if the fearful person removes himself to a safe distance, I assume that the brandishing charge would remain valid.

An example: If someone unholsters a sidearm in the presence of another person, and that person did not experience fear, there is no "brandishing" misdemeanor or felony.

Now, back to DJEEPER's buddy. To men on a street at night split up and begin to approach him from different angles. His situational awareness tells him that this could be a dangerous situation; he is alone and unarmed. Is it reasonable or unreasonable to believe that he felt fear? Remember, it is not the actions of the two men which are at issue; it is the reasonably induced fear in the mind of DJEEPER's friend.

Apart from the presence of a specified weapon per the current brandishing law, how is this different? Should the Commonwealth repeal the weapon brandishing law or should it enact a "human brandishing" law?

You have 30 minutes to complete your written response and hand it to the professor. Begin!

I think a good possible response in the situation described is to yell to these guys to back off (not announcing that you are armed yet), if they keep coming then draw the weapon and verbally tell them to stop and you are armed. I understand that in the heat of the moment it may be tough to quickly decide the best course of action, and we are all Monday morning quartebacking the op. His actions seem reasonable, even though they may rise to brandishing. I don't like the idea of verbally announcing I am armed until it comes to the point where I have drawn the weapon (and even at that point it is very risky, they may just draw weapons and shoot you).

I like the idea of returning to the car and staying there until it is safe or even driving off. This could have turned deadly. Better to drive off then have to shoot someone, even if in self defense, this can really f up your life (e.g., Gerald Ung).

Jonesy said:

I think a good possible response in the situation described is to yell to these guys to back off (not announcing that you are armed yet), if they keep coming then draw the weapon and verbally tell them to stop and you are armed. I understand that in the heat of the moment it may be tough to quickly decide the best course of action, and we are all Monday morning quartebacking the op. His actions seem reasonable, even though they may rise to brandishing. I don't like the idea of verbally announcing I am armed until it comes to the point where I have drawn the weapon (and even at that point it is very risky, they may just draw weapons and shoot you).

I like the idea of returning to the car and staying there until it is safe or even driving off. This could have turned deadly. Better to drive off then have to shoot someone, even if in self defense, this can really f up your life (e.g., Gerald Ung).

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I got the impression that he was at his destination and did not want to abandon the area and his gf to the bad guys. Perhaps better to have returned to the relative safety of his vehicle and have called 911.

Grapeshot said:

I got the impression that he was at his destination and did not want to abandon the area and his gf to the bad guys. Perhaps better to have returned to the relative safety of his vehicle and have called 911.

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Or move to a safer location in the vehicle and then call 911, or just go home, call the gf and explain. None of us like to feel that we cannot go where we want to, but sometimes better safe than sorry.

Instinct will usually tell you if a situation is developing. That being said, some are hypersensitive and try to read too much into too many things. I wasn't there so I wouldn't be able to say. I would not have stated anything about being armed, far too many negatives in doing so. The loss of tactical advantage in announcing such, the legal 'brandishing" trouble that it could cause are two reasons.