Money Grubbin Bast@r&$!!!!!

Soooooo.....................

As I came home from lunch with 1FastC4 at Bad Bones BBQ, I decided that I was going to stop and check out the local bait shop that was advertised as sponsoring a CCW course. This was something that got my attention during the open carry meet and eat last weekend. Primarily because the article said "In preperation for the upcoming concealed carry legislation in Wisconsin".

As I suspected, there was a general belief by the "Sponsors" of the event that having an out of state permit would put you in line to be able to carry concealed when the laws go through here. They booked 2 courses, with 25 people per course, at $150 per person.

Being that this is a well known and long established business in the area, I took the time to explain that Wisconsin will not be honoring out of state permits for immediate ability to carry concealed. And that a majority of laws were heading into requiring a home state permit. I also explained that this course would allow people to get an out of state permit, but that they need to make sure that their customers know that it will not allow them to carry here in Wisconsin without a Wisconsin resident permit, unless we get constitutional carry.

There is a HUGE scam out there among instructors that are pushing for people to take courses for out of state permits. We need to find a way to let the general public know that this is a waste of money and will ultimately screw them over in the long run unless they travel often.

Anyway, I bought a fishing license and left my business card so that I could talk to the guy that owns the place about them doing this.

Anyone got any ideas on how we can let people know about this scam?

Well, you might point out that there are two concealed carry bills that have been introduced and neither one currently has language requiring any particular training or course. The constitutional carry bill's only requirement is that a person can legally possess a firearm-- obviously there are other weapons besides firearms one might wish to carry concealed. The shall issue permit bill only requires passing a records check similar (probably identical) to the check one undergoes when purchasing a firearm through a licensed dealer.


So right now it would be as if I said "For $150 I'll give you a course that will allow you to eat ice cream cones." Your reply, "But I already can eat ice cream cones. I don't need your stinkin' course."

Now I don't see a problem with the people offering a course if they are upfront about it. They might want to offer a course that will enhance somebody's gun skills or knowledge of self-defense laws and discuss things like what to expect after a shooting, and so on. I could see where somebody who hasn't really given much prior thought to carrying a gun and who is unfamiliar with certain areas of the law might want to take a course of that nature now that they're suddenly entertaining the thought of carrying in a post-CC bill Wisconsin. (Of course it's difficult to teach a course about Wisconsin gun laws before the legislation that would drastically change them is actually passed.)

But they better not imply that such a course is mandatory or meeting some nonexistent requirement in order to carry. Unless something changes in the language of the bills, there will be no mandatory training.

Wasn't there any other place to buy a fishing liscence..??? I feel sorry for the poor suckers that signed up for the course.... maybe you should be in the parking lot of class day setting them straight.... probaly will be to late by then as I am sure the fee would be non refundable....:banghead:

I only hope tha the Constitutional Carry bill passes and is signed into law... then all the permit / out of state permit talk becomes moot... But to be totally honest, with the recent a$$ screwing by the NRA, and the fact that the hearing in Madison will only here the "shall issue" (permit) bill, I have some serious concerns that the Constitutional Carry bill will even make it to the floor for a vote.... :banghead:

But on the bright side, I am confident that by a show of force by everyone here, that at least our voice will be heard... Time will tell if it will even make a difference...

Outdoorsman1

Of course you are right, CJ. The problem is, the world is full of gullible people and money grubbing bastages who are willing to take advantage of them.

Well, after a night out around the campfire with the neighbor who happens to know the guy who owns the business that is sponsoring the event, I found out that the business owner would rather call everyone who has signed up and let them know the real deal. Also I talked to a friend in Milwaukee that said that he thinks that if I write up an article he can get it published in teh Milwaukee Journal Sentenal.

So I think that I am going to do just that. And in the mean time I will be contacting the local businesses and let them know that they guise for this particular course is going to cost them in the long run.

Thats awesome news... You sir and what you do are part of what makes this organization GREAT....

Outdoorsman1

as previously reported, they're all over the gas stations here. Wisconsin, land of the Utah permit holders.

McX said:

Wisconsin, land of the Utah permit holders.

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There is nothing wrong with a Wisconsin resident holding a Utah permit. I was a Wisconsin resident and had the Utah permit since 2002. It had utility when I traveled out-of-state.

Even if WI law allows WI residents to carry in WI on a UT permit (which I strongly doubt), UT will require a WI permit (if such a thing exists and if WI recognizes the UT permit) when WI residents renew their UT permit. To solve a problem with Texas, UT now requires that you have a home state permit if 1) your State is a Shall Issue State, and 2) your State recognizes the Utah permit.

Regarding course fees, the further away from Utah one gets, the higher the course fee. This is marketplace supply and demand. There are more UT CFP Instructors in the two most populated Counties in UT than in the rest of the world combined. This keeps the price between $40 per head for large groups and $50 - $60 for individual training. Most CFP Instructors are not terribly creative and simply read the course material to the students and hope they do not fall asleep. When I came to WI last week, I used the NRA Pistol Course slides for firearm familiarity and the UT CFP Instructor training slides to teach UT Law and Federal Law. We discussed real life events in the news and what a lawful response would be under Utah Law.

I also finished up the NRA Pistol Course Qualification with MKEGal. She earned the NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate (which is a pre-requisite to taking NRA Instructor training). Wisconsin could really use qualified female firearms instructors, so let's all keep up the encouragement.

As for my fees, they were much more reasonable.

And, I got to meet some awesome people in WI-Carry.

jpm84092 said:

Most CFP Instructors are not terribly creative and simply read the course material to the students and hope they do not fall asleep. When I came to WI last week, I used the NRA Pistol Course slides for firearm familiarity and the UT CFP Instructor training slides to teach UT Law and Federal Law. We discussed real life events in the news and what a lawful response would be under Utah Law.

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Your teaching style worked out very well! I was abit hesitant to take the class because the thought of sitting through a four hour lecture just wasn't very appealing. The way you ran the class made it enjoyable and interesting. Of course it helped that the class of students were all great people and we like to hang out anyway.

As for my fees, they were much more reasonable.

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That's a fact!




Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

jpm84092 said:

There is nothing wrong with a Wisconsin resident holding a Utah permit. I was a Wisconsin resident and had the Utah permit since 2002. It had utility when I traveled out-of-state.

Even if WI law allows WI residents to carry in WI on a UT permit (which I strongly doubt), UT will require a WI permit (if such a thing exists and if WI recognizes the UT permit) when WI residents renew their UT permit. To solve a problem with Texas, UT now requires that you have a home state permit if 1) your State is a Shall Issue State, and 2) your State recognizes the Utah permit.

Regarding course fees, the further away from Utah one gets, the higher the course fee. This is marketplace supply and demand. There are more UT CFP Instructors in the two most populated Counties in UT than in the rest of the world combined. This keeps the price between $40 per head for large groups and $50 - $60 for individual training. Most CFP Instructors are not terribly creative and simply read the course material to the students and hope they do not fall asleep. When I came to WI last week, I used the NRA Pistol Course slides for firearm familiarity and the UT CFP Instructor training slides to teach UT Law and Federal Law. We discussed real life events in the news and what a lawful response would be under Utah Law.

I also finished up the NRA Pistol Course Qualification with MKEGal. She earned the NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate (which is a pre-requisite to taking NRA Instructor training). Wisconsin could really use qualified female firearms instructors, so let's all keep up the encouragement.

As for my fees, they were much more reasonable.

And, I got to meet some awesome people in WI-Carry.

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The part that you are failing to understand is that people are posting these courses as though the permit they get from another state will be valid for immediate CC in Wisconsin. That is Fraud, no matter how you try and talk you way out of it. I don't care if it is you or someone else, telling people that they should take a UT permit course because wisconsin will allow you to carry a firearm as soon as the law passes is nothing more than fraud. It is getting money from people as a result of telling people something that is not true.

By the way, You do not have to have the NRA Basic to get certified as an instructor. I have never taken a basic NRA course in my life and I am a certified instructor.

CalicoJack10 said:

By the way, You do not have to have the NRA Basic to get certified as an instructor. I have never taken a basic NRA course in my life and I am a certified instructor.

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That is because your instruction qualified for the Basic Course and you took that test (open book with access to the appendix with the test questions) as part of your Instructor Training. Your Instructor qualification shoot was far more demanding than the 9 inch grouping required for the Basic Pistol Course, so you qualified for both with one range shoot.

You get the Basic Pistol Rating as the result of taking the NRA Pistol Instructor Course. So, I respectfully disagree with you. You got the Basic Pistol Course rating as the result of your NRA Pistol Instructor training. But, I also concede that since this is true, NRA Pistol Course is not a pre-requisite using the definition that it appears you used.

When I taught the Utah Course in Wisconsin (East Troy), I mentioned the people that are advertising the UT course as being possibly good to go in Wisconsin, but strongly cautioned that this is more than likely not true and students were taking the UT course to get a UT permit and nothing more. I am completely on board with the idea that promoting a UT Course to be good to go if/when WI gets a permit or permit-free system of concealed carry might indeed be fraud. If you provide me with links to such advertising, or a copy of a flier, I will take advantage of my Utah CFP Instructor Permit and pass such advertising on to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification. If BCI agrees that these instructors have pushed the envelope too far, there may be a few less Utah instructors in Wisconsin.

My offer to provide transportation and housing when you come to SLC for the Utah CFP Instructor Permit still stands. And, next time I visit WI, I will try to get a little closer to your home turf.

Attempts to reach you via the website for your business were not successful. Please PM me and I will provide personal contact information.

CalicoJack10 said:

The part that you are failing to understand is that people are posting these courses as though the permit they get from another state will be valid for immediate CC in Wisconsin. That is Fraud, no matter how you try and talk you way out of it. I don't care if it is you or someone else, telling people that they should take a UT permit course because wisconsin will allow you to carry a firearm as soon as the law passes is nothing more than fraud. It is getting money from people as a result of telling people something that is not true.

By the way, You do not have to have the NRA Basic to get certified as an instructor. I have never taken a basic NRA course in my life and I am a certified instructor.

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If they are advertising that the course will allow an out-of-state permit holder to carry in WI under the out-of-state permit, then they are intentionally lying and that is indeed fraud. But who is telling the lie? The person who owns the business where the course will be held (who knows little about how this works in comparison to a certified instructor), or the instructors putting on the course? If it's just the sponsor, maybe he just got HIS facts wrong.

I'm a little confused. When reciprocity is mentioned when talking about consttutional carry, I've been told that if I need a permit when I travel out of state I can get a UT or FL non-res permit (which requires training). So when someone comes up north and gives a UT/FL class for those who want or need a permit for reciprocity, they're money grubbers? If they're lying, then YES they are. If it's a misunderstanding by the sponsor, then regardless of what the instructors charge, it's a free market. If people think it's too much, they don't have to attend.

CalicoJack10 said:

people are posting these courses as though the permit they get from another state will be valid for immediate CC in Wisconsin. That is Fraud

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I agree. And there will be some ticked-off students if it doesn't happen that way.
(Either we go Constitutional, or WI requires a home-state permit.)

the well-armed cat said:

If BCI agrees that these instructors have pushed the envelope too far, there may be a few less Utah instructors in Wisconsin.

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Where's that "evil grin" smiley when you need it?

the well-armed cat said:

...Basic Pistol Course Certificate (which is a pre-requisite to taking NRA Instructor training).

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I understood that taking a class was a prereq to teaching that same class.
So if I want to teach PPITH & PPOTH I have to eventually take them, too.

the well-armed cat said:

Wisconsin could really use qualified female firearms instructors, so let's all keep up the encouragement.

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OK, I really don't understand this.
Are women such different teachers (or different students) that having a teacher-student pair with matching plumbing is a big deal?
So far, everyone I've learned from has been male.
I think I've learned pretty well despite that.
Only been distracted by impure thoughts with one of them.

Here's their website

The folks offering the $$$ course.

http://www.bdj-ltd.com/

Well, here's something that should at least get them reprimanded:

Our class is based on the original AACFI (MN) Class with a Utah addendum

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They're supposed to teach the UT info, completely, then if they want to add in info for other states it can be tacked on.

And how about this:

The current fee for a standard UTAH Non-Resident Carry Certification Class is $150 plus a $50 donation to WCCM.

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So they're really charging $200!
Although they do say they provide fingerprints & photos; not completely sure that's included in the fee.

Cobbersmom said:

The folks offering the $$$ course.

http://www.bdj-ltd.com/

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Oh man, follow the links

http://www.bdj-ltd.com/ ---> Bill Schmitz, ----> http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com/ ---->
www.permittocarry.us ----> Gene German

Where have we heard that name before?

Cut & pasted from the BDJ website :

"To be Totally upfront with you:
NO, you CANNOT
Carry a Concealed Weapon in Wisconsin at this time!!

You CAN, however, CCW in 33 other States using permits you can obtain using this Certification.

As previously authored, and vetoed, the most recent version of the Wisconsin CCW Legislation accepted all out state permits as valid in Wisconsin, for Wisconsin Non-Residents only.
Wisconsin residents would have needed to be certified in Wisconsin, by WI Certified trainers, to be able to carry in WI. "


Since the instructor says right up front on his website that WI residents would need a WI permit, I guess that makes the sponsor the money-grubbin lier, huh?

FWIW, I know this instructor quite well. My daughter and I took his class back in 2005, the price was $150 each, and it was worth every cent. He's about as stand-up a guy as you'll ever meet. There's no way in hell he'd mislead anyone into believing an out-of-state permit would be valid in WI for a WI resident!!!

My daughter lives in MN, and carries regularly. What my daughter learned from him came in real handy when she was forced to draw on 3 would-be assailants. She and my grandkids were safe, and equally important, not in prison. She told me that even though it had been almost 4 years since the class (which was in Eagle River) everything suddenly came to her as if it was last week. LEOs who responded to her 911 call said she did everything perfectly, and asked who taught her. She said it was her dad who taught her how to handle a gun and how to shoot... and her CC instructor, Bill, who taught her when to and when not to shoot, and if you must, to "shoot to stop, not to wound or to kill". LEOs said "good job". What kind of price does that deserve?

phred said:

Oh man, follow the links

http://www.bdj-ltd.com/ ---> Bill Schmitz, ----> http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com/ ---->
www.permittocarry.us ----> Gene German

Where have we heard that name before?

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What's your point? Bill stepped in to take over WCCA when Dick Baker, who started it, got burned out and moved out of WI. Nobody else would even bother, and why should they. With Doyle and the Dems in power, and no chance in hell of getting a CCW bill even introduced, donations and interest in WCCA dried up. Basically all Bill had to work with was the old e-mail list. He continually sent out e-mails with election alerts, etc... I know I got them. The ONLY thing that could be done to advance CC was finally done... Doyle's gone and the Dems got pounded in Nov.

How do you make any connection between Bill and Gene German, other than they're both instructors? If Jeffrey Dahmer was alive and joined WCI, would that make you a cannibal too?

jpm84092 said:

I also finished up the NRA Pistol Course Qualification with MKEGal. She earned the NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate (which is a pre-requisite to taking NRA Instructor training). Wisconsin could really use qualified female firearms instructors, so let's all keep up the encouragement.

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Is a lot different than

That is because your instruction qualified for the Basic Course and you took that test (open book with access to the appendix with the test questions) as part of your Instructor Training. Your Instructor qualification shoot was far more demanding than the 9 inch grouping required for the Basic Pistol Course, so you qualified for both with one range shoot.

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safcrkr said:

If they are advertising that the course will allow an out-of-state permit holder to carry in WI under the out-of-state permit, then they are intentionally lying and that is indeed fraud. But who is telling the lie? The person who owns the business where the course will be held (who knows little about how this works in comparison to a certified instructor), or the instructors putting on the course? If it's just the sponsor, maybe he just got HIS facts wrong.

I'm a little confused. When reciprocity is mentioned when talking about constitutional carry, I've been told that if I need a permit when I travel out of state I can get a UT or FL non-res permit (which requires training). So when someone comes up north and gives a UT/FL class for those who want or need a permit for reciprocity, they're money grubbers? If they're lying, then YES they are. If it's a misunderstanding by the sponsor, then regardless of what the instructors charge, it's a free market. If people think it's too much, they don't have to attend.

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The point is that there is someone out there that is banking on a false idea, being that Wisconsin Residents can carry here in Wisconsin if they have an out of state permit. Also, I don't doubt the training, I just have a serious concern with the fact that there are at least 5 cities offering courses with flyer's and news articles that say that this is the case.

Cobbersmom said:

The folks offering the $$$ course.

http://www.bdj-ltd.com/

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Thank you for finding the site for me. I will be searching out the articles and posting them.



Everything Else:

If I was teaching a course and it was represented badly or in a way that would end up bad for all involved, I would do everything I could to fix the problem, anything less is irresponsible. By knowing that I have gotten more than 15 phone calls about this course that is being held all over the state that will allow people to carry before they can get certified in Wisconsin, and having the same conversation at one of the gun shops I frequent, someone is putting out really bad information and using Bill Schmitz name to do just that.

If it is not in fact him who is doing it, then he needs to get on the ball and correct this. But though he may be a stand up guy, if he is associated with Gene German, I can only believe that he is not totally ignorant of the fact that this is happening. One of the first things they will teach you when you are getting certified as an instructor is "Do it for the money", so I can't believe that he has a problem with what other people are saying will happen after taking his course, mainly because he can just say "I didn't say it" and keep cashing checks.

Female instructors tend to put the average student more at ease, so yes, women are generally better instructors.

And I have several (3) meetings tomorrow about the crap that is being peddled so that people know that if they take this course it WILL NOT apply to Wisconsin Residents in Wisconsin.

CalicoJack10 said:

And I have several (3) meetings tomorrow about the crap that is being peddled so that people know that if they take this course it WILL NOT apply to Wisconsin Residents in Wisconsin.

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... just as Bill himself has had on his webnsite for years.

As the proposed law is currently written, getting a non-res permit will NOT make you good-to-go as soon as the law takes effect, neither did the law of 2005. But... be careful what you claim isn't true, because IF the law gets changed to require mandatory training, this class may very well qualify you for a WI permit IF training is required. If WI adopts any specific articles of instruction that are not taught in Bill's current class, what IS taught will certainly be required also, and any "add-ons" can be taught in an "update" class. Bill promises his alumni that if this scenario came to play, he'd immediately concentrate on "updating" his alumni to be good-to-qualify for a WI permit using past & updated training before taking on new customers. He's had this policy for years. It's on his website... his website hasn't changed much in the 6 years I've known him.

I think there's been some confusion and the confusion is that it's not only possible, but likely, that if training is required, this class will suffice. I think that's been misunderstood to mean that the non-res permits obtained through this class will suffice. The proposed WI permit law will charge $65 for a permit. A FL permit is $117, a MN is $100, and I believe Utah has raised theirs from $60 up to $100... plus UT has changed their law in another regards. If your state issues CC permits, you CANNOT get a UT non-res permit unless you 1st obtain a permit from your home state. So why would I want to spend twice as much money on a permit other than a WI permit just to carry in WI for a few weeks while I wait for my WI permit to be processed? This doesn't make any sense other than somebody other than Bill has misunderstood what his course is all about.

edit to add: FWIW, it was me that brought BDJ to the northwoods for the 1st time, back in 2005. I asked him to come up north to teach a class, and I made the arrangements for the site of the class and the shooting range for qualifications. My wife cooked lunch for the 13 students and Bill. He came back for 2 more classes (one in 2007, one 2008), and also had some classes in Manitowish Waters. There's probably 50-60 Vilas county residents with a BDJ certificate, many with a MN or FL permit, and I've never heard a single complaint from anybody.