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Thread: What if we have to settle for Permit Carry?

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    Regular Member mliederbach's Avatar
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    What if we have to settle for Permit Carry?

    How many people that are against Permit Carry in WI will still get a permit if one of the permit bills pass?

    I WILL.

    Thanks in advance for your responses.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I would, only to be able to legally carry in my car without having to unload and case... but I would still and always will (weather permitting)... open carry...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 05-08-2011 at 01:27 AM.
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    Regular Member BrewTownBagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I would only to be able to legally carry in my car without having to unload and case... but I would still and always will (weather permitting)... open carry...

    Outdoorsman1
    I Agree with outdoorsman 1, as someone who open carries daily the loading and unloading has got to be the biggest pain in the ass. So I would get a permit to avoid that hassle, but I too, would continue to open carry.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrewTownBagger View Post
    I Agree with outdoorsman 1, as someone who open carries daily the loading and unloading has got to be the biggest pain in the ass. So I would get a permit to avoid that hassle, but I too, would continue to open carry.
    Ahhhhh...something about great minds think alike....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (18911970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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    Given that right now....

    a permit is the only way (that I'm aware of) around the federal GFSZ....absolutely.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    I'd rather get a permit from another state and use reciprocity to carry any way I want in WI. I'm not sure I could bring myself to get a permit from WI. I have principles I need to reconcile with convenience.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    I will fight tooth & nail for Constitutional carry, until it's no longer on the table...then I will fight tooth & nail for the least restrictive type of legal concealed carry. I don't travel so recp means nothing to me.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    McX
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    I rabidly dream of the morning i can walk out Constitutionally Carrying. the birds will sing, the sun will shine, the sheeple shall part, and the criminals shall tremble in fear. I've got a wallet full of permits, so far none good here. But i do take comfort in the fact that Wisconsin Carry will help us 'arrange' any Wisconsin permits i may have to add to my collection.

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    Regular Member theoicarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mliederbach View Post
    How many people that are against Permit Carry in WI will still get a permit if one of the permit bills pass?

    I WILL.

    Thanks in advance for your responses.
    I will as I want to be able CC. At this time I am hoping for constitutional carry.
    The way that you wander is the way that you choose,
    The day that you tarry, is the day that you lose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    I'd rather get a permit from another state and use reciprocity to carry any way I want in WI. I'm not sure I could bring myself to get a permit from WI. I have principles I need to reconcile with convenience.
    The usefulness of that depends entirely on matters that are not under the control of WCI or the state of WI.

    The way some municipalities in this state have acted, I do not trust them not to kick any carrier they find over to the feds for prosecution.

    Constitutional Carry will NOT override the federal GFSZA. Getting a permit from another state will NOT suffice to do so. Federal GFSZA is only bypassed for people with a license from the state in which the school is located. If we don't get WI permits, we don't get to go through school zones.

    And yes, it is being prosecuted elsewhere.

    Unless and until GFSZA is suitably modified or summarily dismissed, Constitutional Carry doesn't help much.

    If I'm documentably (rather than anecdotally) wrong, please advise. I'm going off my own reading of GFSZA and discussions like this: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...=10680&start=0

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    As much as I am for Constitutional Carry, there is the matter of the Federal GFSZ. I am aware of a letter from the head of the BATF that claims an out of state permit would not exempt the holder from the Federal GFSZ out-of-state, but that it the opinion of a non-attorney Federal Official. The text of the law and the legislative intent dealt with background checks. Whether or not a person with an out-of-state permit is exempt from the Federal GFSZ has not yet been tested in the courts. (This question comes up in every Utah CFP Instructor course and the "not yet tested in the courts" is how it is answered.)

    The States that have Constitutional Carry use the Federal GFSZ statute as a "penalty enhancer" if somebody acts badly with a firearm within the GFSZ and this is, I believe, how it should be. People who misuse firearms, or use them unlawfully against others, particularly children, need to be corrected.

    So, to answer the original post question, if WI only gets a permit system (for now), and they offer it to out-of-state residents, I will get one. If a permit is not available to out-of-state residents, but WI recognizes the UT permit, I will carry concealed in WI and avoid GFSZ areas.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    My principles mean more to me than being able to carry everywhere I want. The potential for a permitting system in WI makes me angry. Why would I be eager to participate in something I despise?

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    I haven't gotten through reading both of the bills-the shall-issue bill mentions reciprocity and seemingly WI will recognize all other state permits. Do I have that correct? I didn't see anything about issuing non-resident permits though, so GFSZ will still be an issue to WI non-residents at least.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    My principles mean more to me than being able to carry everywhere I want. The potential for a permitting system in WI makes me angry. Why would I be eager to participate in something I despise?
    I agree with this. This whole, "Do you want a permit?" is like asking, do you want your arm hacked off or your leg? No permits, no fees, no registration!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    The back room deals among the Republicans will be hot and heavy. A version of the Permit Carry Bill is what will pass. Constitutional carry is DOA.

    I will have that permit.
    You almost sound happy to have government regulate your rights. How sad....
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Will I get a permit? Hell yes. As I travel to MI's U.P. at least once a week, sometimes as often as everyday, reciprocity means a lot to me. It means enough that if constitutional carry comes without an optional permit like AZ/AK, then I prefer shall-issue. Call me selfish, but that's the law that suits MY needs best. The ONLY way I can carry in MI is with a WI RESIDENT permit. I've got MN, I've got FL... but they're not valid in MI for non-residents of MN/FL. Before someone chimes in with "you can open carry in MI" , yea I can legally, when I'm OUT of my vehicle. But I need to carry IN my vehicle... I'm not walking to MI, nor walking much while I'm in MI, and most of my customers in MI would be unhappy with OC. Out of sight out of mind with CC.

    Flame away.

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    Regular Member stickbow95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    Will I get a permit? Hell yes. As I travel to MI's U.P. at least once a week, sometimes as often as everyday, reciprocity means a lot to me. It means enough that if constitutional carry comes without an optional permit like AZ/AK, then I prefer shall-issue. Call me selfish, but that's the law that suits MY needs best. The ONLY way I can carry in MI is with a WI RESIDENT permit. I've got MN, I've got FL... but they're not valid in MI for non-residents of MN/FL. Before someone chimes in with "you can open carry in MI" , yea I can legally, when I'm OUT of my vehicle. But I need to carry IN my vehicle... I'm not walking to MI, nor walking much while I'm in MI, and most of my customers in MI would be unhappy with OC. Out of sight out of mind with CC.

    Flame away.
    I'm with you on this one. I would love to see constitutional carry for WI, as well as the whole country. But reciprocity with MI is very high on my list. I spend a lot of time in the UP, as well as the lower peninsula. I'm in Detroit right now, in fact, visiting family. I would really like to be able to conceal here, as many of my family members do not approve of carrying... yet. (I'm always working on them). Like you said: "out of sight, out of mind."

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    There is no guarantee MI will honor a WI permit, that said, there would be a good chance they would since they honor everyone else's permit.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    There is no guarantee MI will honor a WI permit, that said, there would be a good chance they would since they honor everyone else's permit.
    MI doesn't enter into reciprocity agreements. Their law simply recognizes all out-of-state permits that are issued by the permit holder's resident state. I've read through their law many times looking for a "loophole" that would allow my MN or my FL permit to be valid. I've even talked to MI State Troopers. They absolutely will accept a WI permit.

  20. #20
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Dear Friends,

    Please keep in mind that when it comes to allowing the right to carry a concealed firearm for lawful purposes of protecting self and others, Wisconsin is one of two absolute "right denied" States. Any move toward getting concealed carry is a good move.

    I absolutely believe that permit-free carry (with optional permit for those who travel or to account for Federal GFSZ problems) is the right way to go. But, I agree with another member who believes this may be DOA for this legislative session. We can always press the fight closer to election time when the legislators will be all ears.

    So, a permit system that is "shall issue" would be a major step for Wisconsin - and a step in the right direction. Thus, it might be a good idea to keep the "tax" limited to the actual cost of administering the program. As for training, the fact is that many States base reciprocity on what is involved in another State's permit process. Utah permits are accepted by so many States because 1) - Utah does daily background checks. 2) Utah requires firearm familiarity and safety training, and 3) Utah requires training in UT and Federal Firearms Law.

    So, with the costs of training come the benefits of reciprocity. For those who do not travel, this is unimportant. For others, it is extremely important - especially those who travel to Maine, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida, Michigan, and Colorado. These States only recognize permits from Residents of the States they honor.

    To my friends who will not get a WI permit "out of principle", please reconsider. Which is the higher principle - not getting a permit out of one principle, or, accepting the move in the right direction and going out into the day to day world knowing you can lawfully carry a firearm for the purpose of protection of self and others?

    I know that I will feel safer in WI when WI gets concealed carry, whether by permit or permit-free. I will feel less safe if WI ultimately goes with a permit system and those who could get a permit do not do so out of "principle".
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    This should not even be a discussion, With Rights, Guaranteed under Federal and State constitutions come Risks, Our Founding Fathers understood this, It's called Freedom. What we are looking at is pay to play.

    JPM84092 Thank you, will consider and weigh though the thought of it would be like taking a deep breath while under water.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    To answer the original question, if WI goes to a permit system, then to renew my UT permit I will have to get a WI permit.
    Before that necessity is forced on me... I don't know. Probably would.
    Depends on how the other laws are being changed, esp. car carry.
    I prefer to aim for Constitutional Carry.
    Failing that, at the very least we should get recognition of any permit issued by any state for any adult, resident or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teej
    Constitutional Carry will NOT override the federal GFSZA... If we don't get WI permits, we don't get to go through school zones.
    Except unloaded & encased, as we do now. Could cause traffic tieups. And I'd want the gov't to post signs informing citizens of where their rights end, since we need to know in order to be law-abiding.
    Or we could get a law passed like (MT?) saying "for the purposes of the federal "GF"SZA, anyone who is legal to posess a firearm under federal law is considered to be licensed to carry in WI".
    Or we could get a sensible set of national rep's who will see that the "GF"SZ act isn't doing anything useful, & restrict it to just the buildings, or abolish it altogether.
    Don't hold your breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by grinner
    Why would I be eager to participate in something I despise?
    Because some other states only honor home-state permits, or require a home-state permit in order to get their non-resident permit. If you travel, that can be a consideration.
    Also, increasing the numbers of permit holders will show how many of us there are.
    Combine that with the maintenance or decrease of rate of violent crime, & the anti's will be SOL when it comes to the next step: Constitutional Carry.
    Of course, millions of dollars would have been wasted to get that far, and once the beurocracy is in place I don't see it being dissolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr
    I need to carry IN my vehicle... I'm not walking to MI, nor walking much while I'm in MI, and most of my customers in MI would be unhappy with OC. Out of sight out of mind with CC.
    As I said above, you can still carry unloaded & encased.
    Dealing with unhappy customers is another problem, which you're already facing.

  23. #23
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I for one, will get the permit...Im anticipating that there will be a lawsuit/legal challenge to 'permitting' individuals to exercise a right...

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    I for one, will get the permit...Im anticipating that there will be a lawsuit/legal challenge to 'permitting' individuals to exercise a right...
    Yes, but lawsuits are expensive. Constitutional Carry will be far cheaper.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    As I said above, you can still carry unloaded & encased.
    Dealing with unhappy customers is another problem, which you're already facing.
    Right now, I'm doing that in MI as well as WI. When either of these laws pass, I'll be loaded and uncased in WI. If one bill pases, I'll be loaded and uncased in WI, having to stop at the wayside just below the MI border to unload and encase my gun before crossing state lines. With the other law, I'll just keep on truckin from one state into the other. Now do you see why I want a permit, even though most here don't. That's why I back an AZ/AK style law. Most here back Vermont type law.

    I've been involved with getting CC in WI since 2003. I know quite a bit about the laws in other states, as a result. I hold two permits from other states. The shall-issue permit bill that we have now pending in WI, is IMO, the 2nd best shall-issue permit law in the shall-issue states that require permits!!! Only Indiana, with a $10 lifetime permit, no training, is better. And Indiana has had shall-issue CCW since the 1970s.

    If we're "stuck" with a permit law, at least it's one of the best there is.
    Last edited by safcrkr; 05-10-2011 at 02:18 PM.

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