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Thread: San Diego Sunday May15th Lunch meet.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    San Diego Sunday May15th Lunch meet.

    Sunday May 15th Santee Trolley Square food court 12pm noon. Before it gets to hot to meet in Santee.

    Chime in if you are coming especially if it is your first time.

    This replaces the 22nd meet, which Im unable to attend.
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    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    See ya there.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    Im in.

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    i have a prior engagement but if i can peel off of that early I'll come.

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    This is good for me.

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    Regular Member Born2Lose's Avatar
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    Can't make this one. Going on a desert shooting trip.
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    Could I get ahold of a specific address? I live up near Fairfield and San Diego isn't too far away.

    Soo...address please? ;P

    EDIT:

    Curse google maps...nevermind, thats 8 hours away. >.>; My bad.
    Last edited by Rexford; 05-12-2011 at 08:06 PM.

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    See you guys this weekend.

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    My apologies....i'm gonna have to miss this one. Be well all.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Great UOC meet. Awesome conversation, thank you everyone. Special thanks go to Deputy M. King #1434, Your professionalism and courtesy are a great reflection of your 20+ years of experience as a Deputy Sheriff.

    Although we didnt want an E check, Deputy King conducted one with a positive attitude and didnt try to fish for a PC violation or force an ID check. Hanging out for a few minutes havng a polite conversation afterwards and thanking us for our cooperation was the best we could ask for under the circumstances.

    Dave, you are the future of gun rights in this country, congrats on doing so well your first E check. It is very refreshing to see such a young person take such a strong interest in exercising your rights.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  11. #11
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    Great UOC meet. Awesome conversation, thank you everyone. Special thanks go to Deputy M. King #1434, Your professionalism and courtesy are a great reflection of your 20+ years of experience as a Deputy Sheriff.

    Although we didnt want an E check, Deputy King conducted one with a positive attitude and didnt try to fish for a PC violation or force an ID check. Hanging out for a few minutes havng a polite conversation afterwards and thanking us for our cooperation was the best we could ask for under the circumstances.

    Dave, you are the future of gun rights in this country, congrats on doing so well your first E check. It is very refreshing to see such a young person take such a strong interest in exercising your rights.
    Yes, thank you Deputy M. King #1434 for conducting a very professional and courteous 4th Amendment 12031 e-violation on your fellow man. I just bet your wife and kids, and oh yes your momma too, are so proud of you when you tell them about your day on the job and how you violated your fellow man's God given unalienable rights that are guaranteed by the supreme law of this land, the Constitution. And in this particular instance you didn't stop there, you also violated these good peoples' 1st, and 2nd Amendment rights also. But not to worry, we all know you were just doing your job. And with such courtesy and professionalism to boot.

    I am really sick and tired of all the thanks that go out to LEO's who violate our rights. Instead of thanking him, why not tell him to PM Cato for lessons on "protecting and serving" without violating citizens rights.

    Perhaps its time to create a statewide thread that lists all LEO's who willfully violate our rights by conducting 12031 e-violations. And no, this is not cop bashing, this is behavior bashing. A little public shame might very well prove to be a good thing.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  12. #12
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolusername2007 View Post
    Yes, thank you Deputy M. King #1434 for conducting a very professional and courteous 4th Amendment 12031 e-violation on your fellow man. I just bet your wife and kids, and oh yes your momma too, are so proud of you when you tell them about your day on the job and how you violated your fellow man's God given unalienable rights that are guaranteed by the supreme law of this land, the Constitution. And in this particular instance you didn't stop there, you also violated these good peoples' 1st, and 2nd Amendment rights also. But not to worry, we all know you were just doing your job. And with such courtesy and professionalism to boot.

    I am really sick and tired of all the thanks that go out to LEO's who violate our rights. Instead of thanking him, why not tell him to PM Cato for lessons on "protecting and serving" without violating citizens rights.

    Perhaps its time to create a statewide thread that lists all LEO's who willfully violate our rights by conducting 12031 e-violations. And no, this is not cop bashing, this is behavior bashing. A little public shame might very well prove to be a good thing.
    I disagree with you coolusername, shame is not as an effective tool as gentle persuasion. Confrontational resistance is not as receptive as friendly and cordial interaction. Digging in your heels does not put your opponent off balance, it just makes you a stationary target.

    People (including LE) respond negatively to confrontation and resistance. This LEO did get all the same info from us about 2A rights, illegal search and seizure, 12031E is unconstitutional, but he heard it in a non confrontational manner. This officer approached us in a friendly manner and we reciprocated in kind.

    But if you think the best course of action is to bang your drum and engage in a manner to bring shame, you are free to go ahead. No one is stopping you, I have had much better results with my method, with the LE in this town working with them rather than fighting against them.

    The little public shame you speak of, has made several LEO I speak to think that UOC are just a bunch of F****** punks with attitude, while most every LEO I have come accross while UOC'ing and have dealt with respectfully have learned something and have changed their negative perspective to neutral or positive.

    FWIW winning hearts and minds is the goal isnt it????
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  13. #13
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    I disagree with you coolusername, shame is not as an effective tool as gentle persuasion. Confrontational resistance is not as receptive as friendly and cordial interaction. Digging in your heels does not put your opponent off balance, it just makes you a stationary target.

    People (including LE) respond negatively to confrontation and resistance. This LEO did get all the same info from us about 2A rights, illegal search and seizure, 12031E is unconstitutional, but he heard it in a non confrontational manner. This officer approached us in a friendly manner and we reciprocated in kind.

    But if you think the best course of action is to bang your drum and engage in a manner to bring shame, you are free to go ahead. No one is stopping you, I have had much better results with my method, with the LE in this town working with them rather than fighting against them.

    The little public shame you speak of, has made several LEO I speak to think that UOC are just a bunch of F****** punks with attitude, while most every LEO I have come accross while UOC'ing and have dealt with respectfully have learned something and have changed their negative perspective to neutral or positive.

    FWIW winning hearts and minds is the goal isnt it????
    Good points Firemark. But I tend to think its more important they respect (ie don't violate) our rights than to be liked. Winning hearts and minds is a tactic, not the goal. This is an important distinction that everyone must understand. Our goal is the free exercise of our unalienable right to bare arms. Any and all tactics must be fair game in this pursuit, and there once was a time when a little public humiliation went a long way...I think it could be used once again to yield the desired outcome.

    ETA: There have been times when we have publicly posted the names of businesses and restaurants who have stepped on our 2A rights, and it dawned on me that we don't have a list of the officers names, departments, and badge numbers who have willfully violated our rights. Think of it as a state wide, internet version of a citizen's police review board.
    Last edited by coolusername2007; 05-16-2011 at 11:45 PM.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  14. #14
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by coolusername2007 View Post
    Good points Firemark. But I tend to think its more important they respect (ie don't violate) our rights than to be liked. Winning hearts and minds is a tactic, not the goal. This is an important distinction that everyone must understand. Our goal is the free exercise of our unalienable right to bare arms. Any and all tactics must be fair game in this pursuit, and there once was a time when a little public humiliation went a long way...I think it could be used once again to yield the desired outcome.

    ETA: There have been times when we have publicly posted the names of businesses and restaurants who have stepped on our 2A rights, and it dawned on me that we don't have a list of the officers names, departments, and badge numbers who have willfully violated our rights. Think of it as a state wide, internet version of a citizen's police review board.
    I too believe that RESPECT our rights is the most important. I always thought and learned from my life experiences that respect is earned over time and by actions, not by demanding it.

    I understand what you mean about their once was a time when public humiliation went a long way, I grew up during that time when public shame was a powerful motivator for social change. If you think it is time for a come back and that it will work, like I said I cant stop you, my experience with cops (and I work side by side with them daily) is that any person that challenges LE authority, talks back, refutes LE in todays age is viewed by the large part of LE as criminal until proven innocent, and the more one pushes the more LE just doesnt hear you..

    Is that right? is that the way it should be? absolutely not. but unfortunately it is the way it is, right now, today. Especially in big city LE departements that have for years fostered and developed coercion, manipulation and threat of arrest or painful restraint as their primary tools of verbal judo to obtain compliance and submission from any citizen contact.

    I have seen several sites such as cop block and cop watch that do this, list bad apple LE. But I dont see it causing an effect. at least some LE actually consider it a merit badge to be listed, shows they are tough and dont take s*** from bad guys. You see from their point of view all they ever deal with day in and day out are actual criminals caught in a crime trying to use the system to get out of being in trouble. So being accused as a bad cop by a criminal is no big deal, and you have to remeber many LE see UOC as just a bunch of attention seeking criminals to be, not law abiding citizens exercising their rights... Many cops today frimly believe that their are only 3 types of people....wolves (criminals) sheep (citizens) and Sheep dogs (law enforcement). To them to even try and fathom a sheep (citizen) be anything but submissive and helpless must mean that they are a wolf (criminal). To me anyone who UOC's is like a Ram, but the animal does not exsist in todays LE world.

    Might I suggest an alternative idea that might bear more fruit. Find out the chain of command of you LE in your town where you UOC, and ask for an appointment to sit down and talk to each of them. Chief in charge of public relations, the division commander or Captain, the Lieutenants and sergeants. Dont go in confrontational like, go in as a concerned citizen about the law and your own safety and your political agenda. Dazzle them with your extensive knowledge of the CA penal codes pertaining to firearms, be able to rattle off every court case that bears weight on all their doubts and confusion. of all the civil cases lost by over bearing LE and the amounts the cities have paid out. Show them all the training bulletins bad and good from departments. Let them know you have a great relationship with your civil rights lawyer who specializes in gun laws. Teach them that you are not a sheep, but the Ram, that your not going to be a wolf running around causing trouble, and they need to learn all about you because your not going away. Thats how you EARN respect, you do the work and show them who you are. Then you encourage other UOC'rs to do the same. Thats how I got them to respect my rights.

    I did this and the result was the police chief of public relations gave me their personal cell number and directions to call regarding ANY and ALL officers that do not follow department policy and violate my civil rights.

    There are good LE out there who believe what we are doing is great but they are the outcast minority in the LE world, and they will not speak up or out and be chastised by their superiors or jeopordize their careers. I have quickly come to realize that politics play a huge role in forming the forces that are taking our 2A rights from us.

    Verbally dressing down a patrol officer by standing up for your rights is the wrong audience. They are just the foot soldier following directives and orders, even if they go against their oath to uphold the Constitution, They are not spending all day reading gun blogs and watching the state assembly or reading news articles from across the nation. They are out there trying to do there jobs. If you havent walked a mile in their shoes, how can we expect to earn their trust or get them to even accept us (let alone like us).

    I can understand where you are coming from cooluser, I have seen amazing examples of standing up to LE work fantastic, and I have seen some fail misreably and wind up in court in front of a LE friendly judge. Im just saying one can feed em vinegar or sugar, sugar has seemed to work for me so far so im sticking with it till it doesnt. FWIW carry on brother.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  15. #15
    Activist Member Joshua Costa's Avatar
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    I don't want to be a ram. Can I be a mountain lion?

    I want to be the mountain lion staking my wolf prey. When the wolf is eyeing a tasty sheep I will pounce and gorge myself on a fest of wolf flesh with the sheep blissfully unaware.

    CCW
    "I do not love the sword for its gleam, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory; I love only what they protect."
    — J.R.R. Tolkien

  16. #16
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    I too believe that RESPECT our rights is the most important. I always thought and learned from my life experiences that respect is earned over time and by actions, not by demanding it.

    I understand what you mean about their once was a time when public humiliation went a long way, I grew up during that time when public shame was a powerful motivator for social change. If you think it is time for a come back and that it will work, like I said I cant stop you, my experience with cops (and I work side by side with them daily) is that any person that challenges LE authority, talks back, refutes LE in todays age is viewed by the large part of LE as criminal until proven innocent, and the more one pushes the more LE just doesnt hear you..

    Is that right? is that the way it should be? absolutely not. but unfortunately it is the way it is, right now, today. Especially in big city LE departements that have for years fostered and developed coercion, manipulation and threat of arrest or painful restraint as their primary tools of verbal judo to obtain compliance and submission from any citizen contact.

    I have seen several sites such as cop block and cop watch that do this, list bad apple LE. But I dont see it causing an effect. at least some LE actually consider it a merit badge to be listed, shows they are tough and dont take s*** from bad guys. You see from their point of view all they ever deal with day in and day out are actual criminals caught in a crime trying to use the system to get out of being in trouble. So being accused as a bad cop by a criminal is no big deal, and you have to remeber many LE see UOC as just a bunch of attention seeking criminals to be, not law abiding citizens exercising their rights... Many cops today frimly believe that their are only 3 types of people....wolves (criminals) sheep (citizens) and Sheep dogs (law enforcement). To them to even try and fathom a sheep (citizen) be anything but submissive and helpless must mean that they are a wolf (criminal). To me anyone who UOC's is like a Ram, but the animal does not exsist in todays LE world.

    Might I suggest an alternative idea that might bear more fruit. Find out the chain of command of you LE in your town where you UOC, and ask for an appointment to sit down and talk to each of them. Chief in charge of public relations, the division commander or Captain, the Lieutenants and sergeants. Dont go in confrontational like, go in as a concerned citizen about the law and your own safety and your political agenda. Dazzle them with your extensive knowledge of the CA penal codes pertaining to firearms, be able to rattle off every court case that bears weight on all their doubts and confusion. of all the civil cases lost by over bearing LE and the amounts the cities have paid out. Show them all the training bulletins bad and good from departments. Let them know you have a great relationship with your civil rights lawyer who specializes in gun laws. Teach them that you are not a sheep, but the Ram, that your not going to be a wolf running around causing trouble, and they need to learn all about you because your not going away. Thats how you EARN respect, you do the work and show them who you are. Then you encourage other UOC'rs to do the same. Thats how I got them to respect my rights.

    I did this and the result was the police chief of public relations gave me their personal cell number and directions to call regarding ANY and ALL officers that do not follow department policy and violate my civil rights.

    There are good LE out there who believe what we are doing is great but they are the outcast minority in the LE world, and they will not speak up or out and be chastised by their superiors or jeopordize their careers. I have quickly come to realize that politics play a huge role in forming the forces that are taking our 2A rights from us.

    Verbally dressing down a patrol officer by standing up for your rights is the wrong audience. They are just the foot soldier following directives and orders, even if they go against their oath to uphold the Constitution, They are not spending all day reading gun blogs and watching the state assembly or reading news articles from across the nation. They are out there trying to do there jobs. If you havent walked a mile in their shoes, how can we expect to earn their trust or get them to even accept us (let alone like us).

    I can understand where you are coming from cooluser, I have seen amazing examples of standing up to LE work fantastic, and I have seen some fail misreably and wind up in court in front of a LE friendly judge. Im just saying one can feed em vinegar or sugar, sugar has seemed to work for me so far so im sticking with it till it doesnt. FWIW carry on brother.
    Thanks for the post Firemark. Just a couple more distinctions I want to make. With regards to respect, you are correct that respect is earned, but that only applies to us as individuals. That's not the respect I'm talking about. Whether or not LE respects me or you or anyone else is really of little to no consequence, but they must respect the right. That is non-negotiable. That is fundamental to their fitness to perform their professional duties and upholding the oath they took.

    As far as sugar and vinegar, again I agree, in fact I use that phrase often myself. And clearly being knowledgeable is critical so that during a LE encounter one does not come off as reckless. But when it comes to rights, I think its more important to be respectful than it is to be sugary. Respectful assertion and defense of ones rights is critical to sending the correct message that rights don't come from them, but rather my Creator.

    Still debating the LEO list, I had the same concern that you articulated in your message regarding it being a badge of honor. Not sure if I will do it, but still thinking about it.

    Finally, as far as contacting my local LEA, I did something similar to what you suggested a long time ago.

    Carry on.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  17. #17
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolusername2007 View Post
    Thanks for the post Firemark. Just a couple more distinctions I want to make. With regards to respect, you are correct that respect is earned, but that only applies to us as individuals. That's not the respect I'm talking about. Whether or not LE respects me or you or anyone else is really of little to no consequence, but they must respect the right. That is non-negotiable. That is fundamental to their fitness to perform their professional duties and upholding the oath they took.

    As far as sugar and vinegar, again I agree, in fact I use that phrase often myself. And clearly being knowledgeable is critical so that during a LE encounter one does not come off as reckless. But when it comes to rights, I think its more important to be respectful than it is to be sugary. Respectful assertion and defense of ones rights is critical to sending the correct message that rights don't come from them, but rather my Creator.

    Still debating the LEO list, I had the same concern that you articulated in your message regarding it being a badge of honor. Not sure if I will do it, but still thinking about it.

    Finally, as far as contacting my local LEA, I did something similar to what you suggested a long time ago.

    Carry on.
    We will get there my friend, the slow way or the hard way, we WILL get our rights back.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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