Arrested for "Failure to produce ID, Failure to produce CC Permit" - while OC'ing

Arrested for "Failure to produce ID, Failure to produce CC Permit" - while OC'ing

The following is a detailed transcript of the recording made prior to Adam’s arrest on December 17th, 2010 at or around 7:22pm. Adam is standing in line at the Gamestop store with a Gamestop bag and receipt in hand, and an OWB serpa retention-holstered handgun in plain view. Dress shirt tucked all the way into slacks, having just come from a wedding rehearsal dinner. Officer Pope and Captain Bullock are members of the Crabtree Special Police, at Crabtree Valley Mall.


Officer Pope: You got any like, CCW[sic] or anything like that?


--*note*--CCW, or “Carrying Concealed Weapons”, is something NC recognizes as a crime, and is addressed by a specific statute: § 14 269 (thanks Dreamer!).


Adam: “What does a ‘CCW’ have to do with anything here today?

Officer Pope: Well this is private property and like I said you’re well within your rights to open carry, it’s just due to the fact that this is private property, you know the owners don’t like visible weapons inside the mall.

Adam: Okay.

Officer Pope: So that’s the only thing, you know. In your – well if you took the CCW class you would have been given a list of places you can and cannot carry even openly. But you don’t have that obviously.

--*note*-- Nowhere in the NC Firearms Laws does it list businesses such as Crabtree Mall as restricted areas.

Officer Pope: So you got some ID on you today?

Adam: I might have my driver’s license on me but I’m not driving a vehicle. Look, I came here to return something to this store. And these folks here don’t have any problem with it. I carry a gun every day --

Officer Pope: I can understand that.

Adam: -- and it’s never been a problem before. I haven’t broken any laws coming in here --

Officer Pope: Yeah

Adam: -- and I’m having a hard time understanding what the problem is.

Officer Pope: Because I’m telling you it is private property, and being private property whatever these people say it’s, it’s the gospel.

Capt. Bullock: Sir I’m Capt. Bullock with the Police Department. We do have a [garbled] that says no concealed weapons are allowed; that means open carry or anything else. Ok, so do you have an ID?

Adam: Ok, I --

Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something, when you’re violating that [garbled] you’re violating law because you’re refusing to give me ID.

Adam: Ok. Officer, Bullock? When I came into this mall I didn’t pass any signs that said I wasn’t allowed to carry a handgun.

Capt. Bullock: Do you have an ID?

Adam: I do have an ID.

Capt. Bullock: Ok, let me have your ID right quick ok?

Adam: I’m not willing to share that ID with you.

Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; it’s not that serious of an issue right now – you’re making it into a serious issue. And at that moment when you refuse to give me your ID, that means we’re going to place you under arrest, you understand me?

Adam: What would the charge be?

Capt. Bullock: It’s gonna be failure to -- It’s gonna be RDO; you’re not cooperating with the police when they’re asking you a question, ok?

Adam : Ok. Here is what I’m willing to do - -

Capt. Bullock: Ok.

Adam: If the people in control of this property --

Capt. Bullock: No, I’m in – I’m in control right now because I work for those people. You understand?

Adam: Being - -

Capt. Bullock: [to radio: 122 to base] I’m not going to sit here and argue with you ok?

Adam: I’m not, just let me get this out ok?

Capt. Bullock: Let me explain something to you; you are 30 seconds from going to jail, understand me? Let me have your ID.

Adam: Being on private property, if I’m being asked to leave I would be happy to do so.

Capt. Bullock: You’re not being asked to leave, I’m asking for your ID.

Adam: Ok.

Capt. Bullock: Let me have your ID.

Adam: I’m not carrying a concealed weapon - -

--*Recording is shut off as I am roughly shoved against the nearest wall by at least 3 officers, one of who barks repeatedly at me to "STOP RESISTING". I did not physically resist the arrest whatsoever, so apparently yelling "Stop resisting" is basic protocol for these folks, obviously to enhance the rationale of using excessive force to handcuff and frisk me, as I was a rag-doll.

Although I was lame with both a lower back problem (had also just come from my chiropractor) and slowly recovering from knee surgery (I walk with a slight limp), my requests for the two officers pushing me along by my handcuffed arms to slow down a little bit were ignored. Literally hundreds of people have stopped and are staring at me as I am forced to lead the parade outside and to the police office on site.

The exact order of some of what took place over the next 2 hours that I was in their custody, before being transported to the Wake Co. Detention center is hard to recall. To say my stress level was high...

I am asked repeated questions like: Who do you work for? Why are you carrying a handgun? What kind of car do you drive? I didn't answer any of these questions, but that didn't stop the officers from going through the inner pockets of my wallet and finding my insurance card, then proudly telling me they had found my make and model, and of course they have my keyless entry fob. It is unclear whether or not my vehicle was located and searched, but it would not surprise me.

Several times the chief of this dept. comes to 'talk at me'. He explains to me that if I have been issued a CHP and am in possession of a handgun, I MUST show the permit and a photo ID to any officer who asks. I replied with that not being my understanding. The chief comes back a few minutes later and reads this:


“Any individual who has applied for and has been issued a concealed handgun permit
must follow certain regulations concerning its use. Not only must the individual carry the
permit along with proper identification whenever the handgun is being carried concealed,
but he/she must also inform any law enforcement officer who approaches him/her that
he/she is in possession of a permit and a concealed handgun. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-
415.11(a)”

The only problem was, as he was reading it from the printout he just made he changed the verbiage, removing that small detail about the handgun BEING CONCEALED.

I asked him if I could read it for myself and, looking offended, he replies, "No you can not. See, you're not the only one who can be obstinate". The chief goes on further, informing me that Sheriff Donnie is a buddy of his. He told me he would be sure to call him the next day and have my CHP revoked. Apparently this was unsuccessful as I have never been asked to relinquish my permit. Furthermore, even if I admitted guilt to the charge I would not have lost my CHP.

I ask for water and am given it, as well as a supervised restroom visit. Why they insisted on watching me pee I do not know, for I had already been fully searched to include handling of my genitals through my pants. I can no longer say that my girlfriend and my Dr. have had the privilege... This happened again during intake at the co. jail. If a TSA pat-down is a 5 on my scale of discomfort and intrusion, this would have to be a 9. Only to be bested by cavity exploration.

Eventually I am transported to jail along with some scumbag drunk who was peeing on cars in the parking garage.

After taking mugshots, fingerprints, tattoos being documented etc., I am placed in a holding cell. There are 6-8 guys sharing with me, one of whom is a man snoring on the floor who has pissed and crapped his pants.

After 7 hours inside the county jail, dealing with the sticky handset of a phone that is barely functional, a very good friend is able to post my $1,500 secured bond. By now it is around 3am, and remember that rehearsal dinner? I'm to be a groomsman in just a few short hours.

I take a cab back to crabtree's parking deck to pick up my car, and after the cabbie drops me off I take 10 or so good photos of the entrance I used, next to my car. There is only one policy posted and it is for smoking inside. This is shown clearly in the photos I have large glossy prints of.

Today was the 4th appearance in court. Finally the officer showed up, so we could get started, just 5 months later. The DA was able to speak with the officer about this case for the first time, and did so at least in part in front of my attorney. According to my attorney,the officer informed the DA that he had asked me to leave and I had refused. Ok, so this is the kind of guy I'm dealing with? Whether his misrecollection was malicious or due simply to incompetence I don't know. But I am inclined to believe the former since the discrepancy was gross and obviously against my favor.

Furthermore, the face of the original charge sheet (written by this same officer) describes my alleged offense as: NCGS 14-223, Resist, Delay, or Obstruct a public officer while discharging or attempting to discharge a duty of his office. Then in the space below it elaborates as follows: "Failure to provide ID, failure to provide CC permit."

The DA offers to plea my class II 14-223 R,D,O charge down to a class III misdemeanor of trespassing. I said thanks but no thanks, I didn't do that (trespass) either.

The arresting officer goes back to his seat, and my lawyer plays the recording of the arrest for the DA in a back room somewhere. They come back out and I get a thumbs up. Apparently the DA was not inclined to allow the officer to perjure himself on the stand, and my charge was dismissed immediately after reviewing my evidence.

My attorney had prepared a form to be signed by the judge, so that after ~5 months my handgun would be returned to me. I am supposed to meet both officers around 6pm this evening for the exchange. My Gadsden Flag shirt is already sported, right on top of the one permanently etched into my skin.

Look, I want to be clear about why I am NOT sharing this. I do not want any Monday morning quarterbacking, chastising, or admonishments for any detail or even the sum of my actions and decisions. You can keep that crap to yourself. Last time I was willing to share an unfavorable LEO interaction I was stuck defending my "situational awareness", since the cops were allowed to grab me with force. You handle things however you see fitting and I'll do the same.

I AM going out on a limb and sharing because I feel my very painful experience may help other OCDO members. Jail, and the experience as a whole, has been MUCH worse than I ever imagined it would be. But I would stand my ground just as adamantly tomorrow as I did in December. If you are ever faced with a similar circumstance you may, unfortunately, have to weigh for yourself whether or not this is something you'd be willing to go through. It could have gone much better, or much worse. If you don't learn anything else from this, RECORD YOUR NON-CONSENSUAL INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE!!!!!!! If you have children to pick up or other such commitments your choices may understandably be limited.

Only just having been exonerated, I have not made any decisions on how or if I will pursue reparations, but no one has apologized to me yet.

I would also ask that no one "do anything" on my behalf, or in light of hearing this account. What I mean is phone calls or emails. I can handle this, but if you have some sound advice post it, or PM me. I have been very careful not to give the parties involved a piece of my mind so far, and would ask the same of those reading this.

Regarding ID during a "Terry Stop" (I do not recognize my initial encounter with these officers as a legitimate Terry Stop, BTW)
http://policehelp.net/pubs/2004/rollcallv3n7.pdf
http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/...ceChief/PoliceAttorney/Documents/04MayJun.pdf - - See item #3 on the contents list

And here is one on the charge of RDO:
http://policehelp.net/pubs/ralph/RandRjune1_05.pdf

**The above opinions are written by very well studied ADVOCATES FOR LEO's**

Good luck with it. I'm not sue happy, but in this case I would strongly consider it.

Was Gamestop an inside store? Reason being, anchor stores with their own entrances and inner stores seem to be viewed differently under the general guidelines for the mall. The anchor stores seem to make their own rules in regards to handguns. The inner stores fall squarely under the mall policy. And yes, I understand it was not posted. Not even questioning that one. They rarely come right out and do that.

One of the reasons I rarely, and as little as possible go to the mall.

Clarify this for me, even though the mall documented policies are that no weapons are permitted on the property , if you entered through an unposted entrance you can legally carry until/unless asked to leave?

Greg Bradburn said:

Clarify this for me, even though the mall documented policies are that no weapons are permitted on the property , if you entered through an unposted entrance you can legally carry until/unless asked to leave?

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My understanding, FWIW, is that you can not be held in violation of law until you knowingly enter the premises against such a policy. There must have been a reason I wasn't charged with trespassing, as these guys were not out to do me any favors. I'm not convinced that OC'ing past a posted entrance would even be an actionable offense, but IANAL. In any case, I didn't.

Gamestop is inside the mall. The entrance I used was a main thoroughfare with sliding glass doors, you walk in and there are stores on either side of the corridor.

§ 14‑159.13. Second degree trespass.
(a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of second degree trespass if, without authorization, he enters or remains on premises of another:
(1) After he has been notified not to enter or remain there by the owner, by a person in charge of the premises, by a lawful occupant, or by another authorized person; or
(2) That are posted, in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, with notice not to enter the premises.
(b) Classification. – Second degree trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor. (1987, c. 700, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 102; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)

Crabtree Special Police, at Crabtree Valley Mall.

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Wait, what?

Private businesses in NC can have private police forces with powers of arrest?

Greg Bradburn said:

Clarify this for me, even though the mall documented policies are that no weapons are permitted on the property , if you entered through an unposted entrance you can legally carry until/unless asked to leave?

Click to expand...

Even if posted, I am not sure it would be against the law until someone asked you to leave.

Smith, I hope that you plan on some action towards the PD there for the way they treated you.

Congrats! I was just thinking about you the other day, I had remembered you posted a story a while back and by the time I saw it and clicked on it the post had been removed and have been wondering what happened ever since.

I am with Chiefjason on this, I am not sue happy either, but I would defiantly consider it in this case. Does not have to be for a retirement sized check, but at least to get them to install a new training program for their officers to educate them on open carry and perjury laws, as well as enough to get back what was paid for the bond, court cost, lawyer fees, and a little for being illegally detained.

If its ok with you, I would like to share your story on another forum, I can either link back to hear or if you want it kept anonymous I can just copy and past? There are some people on another forum who think its a waste of time to carry a recorder, your story proves it can save your butt.

Congrats. Glad you won. You may still have to get your arrest expunged. You also had to pay for representation. The dept. or the mall that contracted these officers should have to pay these expenses. These officers should lose their job for falsely arresting you and intentionally lying to the DA. How many times have they done that?


What kind of recorder do you use? I have been looking one, but I never have a shirt pocket, so I was thinking about one that looks like an ink pen. I can clip that to my shirt, but I don't know how good they work.

Good times, I'm glad things worked out for you and you are getting your weapon back. I haven't been OC'ing as much because I need to get a voice recorder, this sort of confirmed that for me.

Congrats man. Did you get your 1911 back?

This is a perfect reason of why it is vital that all OCers carry a recording device, even if its a cell phone with a record function. I'm assuming this recording really helped you in court, basically proving that the cop lied about asking you to leave.

Those officers never asked you to leave the property, so I don't understand how they could have gotten you on trespassing. Sounds like they were trying to set you up from the start.

I refuse to go to Crabtree because me and a friend were asked to leave for breakdancing and filming (our fault, but the manager was REALLY rude about it and made Crabtree cops follow us outside). I used to always enter near Panera Bread and park on the ground floor. Never seen a sign on those sets of doors. I try my best to avoid all shopping malls, but if I do have to go in a mall, I'll probably just CC when I get my permit, making sure to enter where no sign is posted.

Directed at everyone reading this, not the OP:

RECORD RECORD RECORD! They ALWAYS lie! If you can't prove it with your recording, you're screwed. The recording is your only hope. Without it, this man would be convicted based on the lies of the Officer.

I 2nd that record, record, record because yes they will lie.

Congrats on your win. And as for the Monday morning quarterbacking, I remember that post where everyone was talking about situational awareness and it was such BS. If you open carry with any level of frequency, you will always have times where you don't know EVERYthing that is around you even with great situational awareness. If your read labels at the grocery store, look at the menu board in a fast food restaurant, search for a number in a cell phone etc. I guarantee you are susceptible to people coming up behind you.

I agree with the idea of recording but how do you start a recording device without 1) the cop(s) seeing it and getting nervous thinking you are going for a weapon or 2) making it obvious that you reached for something and that being the grounds they need for an instant Terry frisk where they find the recorder and turn it off?

534 hours of recording for $24. I'd guess just leave it on. Or set it for voice activated. I don't have one myself. But I've been considering it. Probably should get one.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...Tb6-JoS90AGKoP3JBw&ved=0CGkQ8wIwAQ#ps-sellers

Yes the officers complied with the judge's order this evening and returned my property.

At first they insisted on placing it in my trunk, but I told them I did not consent to give them access to the interior of my car. Maybe I have private items in there, maybe I just don't like you.

Pope responded with, "You tellin me after all this you're still going to come back here with things in your car you shouldn't have?"

I just repeated the same statement, and they eventually dropped the items on my passenger seat. Then as I'm getting in they are trying to tell me to stop and sign something. I kept quiet, got in and left. I'm thinking, F off at this point, the judge's letter didn't say squat about ME doing anything for YOU. And again, maybe I just don't like you.

My cell phone's video function has great audio on it, so that's what I use.

Thanks for the support fellas.

Jag I appreciate you asking about reposting, feel free to do so. The last thing I would ever want is attention from the media so as long as that possibility remains as slim as it is now I don't care. Also don't want my full name posted anywhere, Google search is a wonderful, terrible thing.

Smith45acp said:

If you don't learn anything else from this, RECORD YOUR NON-CONSENSUAL INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE!!!!!!!

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I went to Staples tonight and got an Olympus VN-7000 Digital Voice Recorder. Thanks for the heads up.

thanks for the post smith45acp. i think you did an excellent job. i am amazed how structured your interaction was with the officers. they played right into your questions. the question was asked before and i am a bit curious too. were these security guards or certified police officers?
do you know what was the cause of the disruption of your recording. was the recorder turn off by the Officers or did it get bumped off

Regarding an above question on discreet recording:

In almost any case, I am going to be holding my recording device, probably in my strong side hand. I'm not going to pretend that I'm not recording, and I'm not going to answer as to whether or not I am recording. There is no legitimate claim that this will be interfering as long as you're not sticking it in someone's face.

I didn't mention this before, but I have good reason to believe that if my phone didn't have a pattern-screen-unlock feature (having too many possible combinations to count, and it's been awhile since stats 101) my recordings of the above encounter would have been deleted. I watched, handcuffed on a bench, as the chief of police fumbled with it for a while before giving up on gaining access. There is no reason for me to trust that they would not have "cleaned up some files" for me if it had been accessible.

There are some applications I'm testing (such as Qik for android) that stream the video feed live to a server. So if, you know, your phone gets smashed, wet etc. your recordings will be stored remotely. For posterity's sake I think this is worth looking into for anyone with a "smart" phone.

Smith45acp said:

Regarding an above question on discreet recording:

In almost any case, I am going to be holding my recording device, probably in my strong side hand. I'm not going to pretend that I'm not recording, and I'm not going to answer as to whether or not I am recording. There is no legitimate claim that this will be interfering as long as you're not sticking it in someone's face.

I didn't mention this before, but I have good reason to believe that if my phone didn't have a pattern-screen-unlock feature (having too many possible combinations to count, and it's been awhile since stats 101) my recordings of the above encounter would have been deleted. I watched, handcuffed on a bench, as the chief of police fumbled with it for a while before giving up on gaining access. There is no reason for me to trust that they would not have "cleaned up some files" for me if it had been accessible.

There are some applications I'm testing (such as Qik for android) that stream the video feed live to a server. So if, you know, your phone gets smashed, wet etc. your recordings will be stored remotely. For posterity's sake I think this is worth looking into for anyone with a "smart" phone.

Click to expand...

I too have instituted the screen pattern lock feature on my phone, lucky they weren't smart enough to 'confiscate' your memory card and plug it into a regular PC to 'edit' your files. Since you are recording with your smart phones video function, were you able to hit record before the police entered the store? I imagine that recording video everytime you are OCing could end up with lack of space issues on your memory card before you are done being in public? I've been practicing enabling the recorder on my phone as quickly as possible. thanks for the story and for sticking up for the 2nd and 4th amendments! Glad you got your gun back.

REDFIVE48 said:

I too have instituted the screen pattern lock feature on my phone, lucky they weren't smart enough to 'confiscate' your memory card and plug it into a regular PC to 'edit' your files. Since you are recording with your smart phones video function, were you able to hit record before the police entered the store? I imagine that recording video everytime you are OCing could end up with lack of space issues on your memory card before you are done being in public? I've been practicing enabling the recorder on my phone as quickly as possible. thanks for the story and for sticking up for the 2nd and 4th amendments! Glad you got your gun back.

Click to expand...

Since I use my phone as well, I would just start up the recorder before I said anything to the cops. Just say "hold on a second". Maybe the fact that they know they are being recorded might keep them on their best behavior. No doubt my 2GB memory card would probably be filled if I kept the recorder running all day, but I see no use in doing so. Unless I am grabbed from behind and immediately placed in handcuffs.