The sausage making has begun.........

oak1971 said:

So sad to see how cheaply you would sell our liberty. :banghead:

Click to expand...

You don't even know me or have any idea what I do. Some of you suffer from absolutism, look it up.

An ongoing problem on this forum is that with some there is a total intolerance of any views that differ in the slightest from your own. We are all working to the same goal, yet some of you feel the need to puff up and insult others.

I would like to see a Constitutional Carry law with an optional permitting system. Politically, I don't think that is going to happen in Wisconsin. If the choice comes down to a concealed carry bill with a permit and some training required vs having no concealed carry in Wisconsin, I will come down on the side of the bill with a permit and training every time. We will have opportunities to go back and improve it over time as has been the case in other states.

Those of you unwilling to recognize the reality of how things are done politically will be an obstacle to getting concealed carry in Wisconsin as much as the antigunners of WAVE or the Democrat Party. It is far from an ideal system but that is how it works.

professor gun said:

You don't even know me or have any idea what I do. Some of you suffer from absolutism, look it up.

An ongoing problem on this forum is that with some there is a total intolerance of any views that differ in the slightest from your own. We are all working to the same goal, yet some of you feel the need to puff up and insult others.

I would like to see a Constitutional Carry law with an optional permitting system. Politically, I don't think that is going to happen in Wisconsin. If the choice comes down to a concealed carry bill with a permit and some training required vs having no concealed carry in Wisconsin, I will come down on the side of the bill with a permit and training every time. We will have opportunities to go back and improve it over time as has been the case in other states.

Those of you unwilling to recognize the reality of how things are done politically will be an obstacle to getting concealed carry in Wisconsin as much as the antigunners of WAVE or the Democrat Party. It is far from an ideal system but that is how it works.

Click to expand...

When has government ever done something better than what the private sector has?

professor gun said:

You don't even know me or have any idea what I do. Some of you suffer from absolutism, look it up.

An ongoing problem on this forum is that with some there is a total intolerance of any views that differ in the slightest from your own. We are all working to the same goal, yet some of you feel the need to puff up and insult others.

I would like to see a Constitutional Carry law with an optional permitting system. Politically, I don't think that is going to happen in Wisconsin. If the choice comes down to a concealed carry bill with a permit and some training required vs having no concealed carry in Wisconsin, I will come down on the side of the bill with a permit and training every time. We will have opportunities to go back and improve it over time as has been the case in other states.

Those of you unwilling to recognize the reality of how things are done politically will be an obstacle to getting concealed carry in Wisconsin as much as the antigunners of WAVE or the Democrat Party. It is far from an ideal system but that is how it works.

Click to expand...

It is a free country so you can do what you want, however, I believe we need to work towards the most 'free' solution and only if we have any other choice should we compromise.

So.... going into a car dealership and telling the salesman, 'hey, I want to pay $10K for this car but am willing to go to $12K' just about guarantees that you will pay at least $12K.

Me, I am going to fight and scratch and claw and argue for Constitutional Carry. Only if that fails will I truly reveal what I'll accept.

Is 'shall issue' with no change to the right to OC better than what we have today? Yes, however, Constitutional Carry everywhere (court houses, government building, capital building) is the BEST. I have already compromised by mostly 'agreeing' to the restrictions that are in SB93, I don't want to compromise more.

professor gun said:

You don't even know me or have any idea what I do. Some of you suffer from absolutism, look it up.

An ongoing problem on this forum is that with some there is a total intolerance of any views that differ in the slightest from your own. We are all working to the same goal, yet some of you feel the need to puff up and insult others.

I would like to see a Constitutional Carry law with an optional permitting system. Politically, I don't think that is going to happen in Wisconsin. If the choice comes down to a concealed carry bill with a permit and some training required vs having no concealed carry in Wisconsin, I will come down on the side of the bill with a permit and training every time. We will have opportunities to go back and improve it over time as has been the case in other states.

Those of you unwilling to recognize the reality of how things are done politically will be an obstacle to getting concealed carry in Wisconsin as much as the antigunners of WAVE or the Democrat Party. It is far from an ideal system but that is how it works.

Click to expand...

I don't care what you do. You suffer from defeatism, look that up. Also, if you are claiming to be in the possession of specialized knowledge please share your sources. I have provided a link for your reference.

http://debate.uvm.edu/berube1000.html

professor guy.............let me hit that jaint!

professor gun said:

An ongoing problem on this forum is that with some there is a total intolerance of any views that differ in the slightest from your own. We are all working to the same goal, yet some of you feel the need to puff up and insult others.

I would like to see a Constitutional Carry law with an optional permitting system. Politically, I don't think that is going to happen in Wisconsin.

Click to expand...

Professorie, if I may speak in huge broad generalizations because they often tend to be the truest?

We'll be seeing you in Mad town tomorrow right?

The problem isn't tolerance. On this end. The problem may be that you do not recognize the dedication, work, time, money... that the gentle men here have put into this issue. So when someone swoops in and kind of rubs it in this forum's face... well you ain't getting offered any cookies and milk.

How about giving a little tolerance towards the guys busting their asses for (or maybe even WITH) you?



:dude:


[video=youtube;PeK-Q1xoGxw&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeK-Q1xoGxw&feature=related[/video]

I understand the whole" let's get the best now and work on it later" mentality. The thing is, right now we are between two bills so if you help push for constitutional carry and we lose, we end up with the other bill anyway! The permit bill is "good", about the only big thing to fight for would be to eliminate the permit requirement! I just don't see any major down side to push for the better bill. It's not like its constitutional or nothing, its constitutional or a very "good" shall issue with no training. Either way we come out ahead.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

It is a free country so you can do what you want, however, I believe we need to work towards the most 'free' solution and only if we have any other choice should we compromise.

So.... going into a car dealership and telling the salesman, 'hey, I want to pay $10K for this car but am willing to go to $12K' just about guarantees that you will pay at least $12K.

Me, I am going to fight and scratch and claw and argue for Constitutional Carry. Only if that fails will I truly reveal what I'll accept.

Is 'shall issue' with no change to the right to OC better than what we have today? Yes, however, Constitutional Carry everywhere (court houses, government building, capital building) is the BEST. I have already compromised by mostly 'agreeing' to the restrictions that are in SB93, I don't want to compromise more.

Click to expand...

+1000

That is how politics really works, we need to ask for WAY more than what we will settle for, the other side is doing the same thing!

Jason in WI said:

I understand the whole" let's get the best now and work on it later" mentality. The thing is, right now we are between two bills so if you help push for constitutional carry and we lose, we end up with the other bill anyway! The permit bill is "good", about the only big thing to fight for would be to eliminate the permit requirement! I just don't see any major down side to push for the better bill. It's not like its constitutional or nothing, its constitutional or a very "good" shall issue with no training. Either way we come out ahead.

Click to expand...

Exactly!! There is nothing wrong with trying to climb to the top of the mountain. If you're only trying for half way up, you'll never reach the top.

I always told my physics students who only "wanted a "B" in Physics" that had better work for an "A". If they worked for only a "B", they probably would end up earning a "C".

OK, ducky guy, that was a funny video. But what did it have to do with the topic at hand?

Deek said:

I got 8 hours in for my Utah permit.

Click to expand...

8?? Did you take it twice?

professor gun said:

there is that small issue of carrying in a vehicle... and, oh, yeah, there is that other issue of being within 1000 feet of a school.

Click to expand...

The school zone will soon be reduced to the actual grounds of the school, which takes care of the WI law. And if they'd write the law like (Montana?) to say that anyone who's legal to posess is considered to be licensed then we wouldn't have to worry about the federal law, either.

(Well, some fed who was having a bad day might try to make a test case of himself, but since nobody has ever been punished for carrying in a "GF"SZ, I doubt any fed would make an issue of it. If there were a massacre, yes, they'd use that as another penalty. But for everyday people, I doubt it.)

protias said:

When has government ever done something better than what the private sector has?

Click to expand...

They screw up pretty well.
And I really think they've got the whole military thing down pat.

Seeing the email from Nik about how suddenly our legislators are paying attention to people talking about Constitutional Carry makes me a bit hopeful that we might actually get it. And even if we end up with the :cuss: permit bill for a few years, as permits go it's not bad.
It's just hard to get rid of beurocrats once they've been hired, & it's an unneccesary expense at both the state & personal levels.
If they want to require a permit, they should honor any permit from any state for anyone, including residents. We could charter a bus & take a trip to PA; everyone file their paperwork, pay their $25, and we'd be set.

MKEgal ,8 hours was too long?. beats me.... I took Mr. Benders class and it was an all day affair, (8am -3-4ish) with all the discussion and info and then range time.... this not the norm?. or are ya funnin' with me?

Deek said:

MKEgal ,8 hours was too long?. beats me.... I took Mr. Benders class and it was an all day affair, (8am -3-4ish) with all the discussion and info and then range time.... this not the norm?. or are ya funnin' with me?

Click to expand...

UT permit doesn't require range time. We took ours in 4 hours.

Problems with Fighting Tooth and Nail for No Permit

1. You fire up the opposition even more.
2. You run out of time (before an unfriendly legislature takes power).
3. You irritate borderline supporters in the legislature.

All of these can lead to NO concealed carry bill passing. Not a sure thing, but a possibility. Fight the fight you think appropriate. Just don't delude yourself that there is no cost. Furthermore not one ConstCarrian has come up with a solution to the reciprocity, GFSZ, NICS issues if they prevail. No state that had a concealed carry prohibition dealt with it by simple repeal. If Alaska and Arizona needed the permit system as a bridge (and alternative with benefits) why would Wisconsin be any different?

The "no compromise" gang need to deal with reality. This includes the fact that the Wisconsin Supreme Court has said that restrictions on concealed carry (up to and including prohibition) are constitutional. A no permit system could be reversed as quickly as it is passed. A permit system (especially one in which the government has a financial interest) is more likely to be impervious to attack. Runaway fees are unlikely. Not only has experience in other states borne this out but it is not in the state's best interest. $50 x 250,000 is a heck of a lot more money that $500 x 2500 (ten times as much!) plus it broadens the support base and gives economy of scale, increasing the "profit" of the bureaucrats. Fight on but if things get to the point of losing the whole match - render unto Caesar and drop the pretensions of being the Samuel Adams of the 21st Century. Hearken back to 2003 - how did that protest vote (or nonvote) against Scott McCallum work out for you? If certain concealed carry purists had been more flexible, Wisconsin would be entering its 9th year of permitted concealed carry and have a much stronger argument for "constitutional carry." Do you really want to push things back to 2019?

Most folks agree that there are certain issue on which no compromise is warranted. Perhaps 4 or 5 things during a lifetime. Is this *really* one of them? You accept or at least tolerate limitations on constitutional rights all the time. Ask yourself - what is the *real* reason you oppose a shall-issue permit system? People in NJ, HA, MD etc. would be ecstatic over such a system. They are starving while you turn your nose up at a $6 dollar burger because it isn't filet mignon.

News Flash - "constitutional carry" is not going to pass. Period. End of story. I know it and deep down - so do you. Why not work to help make a shall-issue system the best that it can be with a view to making it optional down the road?

To That End

What features of a shall-issue permit system are (1) essential, (2) desirable, (3) unwanted, (4) complete show-stoppers? For instance:

1 - GFSZ and NICS exemption qualified
2 - maximum reciprocity
3 - requirements over what is necessary to possess
4 - term shorter than 4 years

Now is the time to give input. Changes will occur. Do you want to be a participant or spectator? A unified front will have much more impact that a slew of varying suggestions. Do you want tasty meat or sawdust in your sausage?

professor gun said:

Well, there is that small issue of carrying in a vehicle........and, oh, yeah, there is that other issue of being within 1000 feet of a school. You said no restrictions, right?

A man decides to bake a large cake and he needs a dozen eggs for the recipe. He goes to the store, discovers there is only one container of eggs remaining that holds 10 eggs. The store owner offers to sell him the container with 10 eggs at a substantial discount. The man could slightly reduce his planned recipe and still bake a cake using 10 eggs. Instead, the man gets angry, yells at the store owner for not having 12 eggs, leaves without any eggs. The cake is not even started.

Click to expand...

+1. Glad to be getting CC, even at 2 hours of "training". To me, this is reasonable. Constitutional would be nice, but even then a lot of us would be getting a permit simply for reciprocity reasons. I like a lot of the stuff I'm reading in these proposed bills. There are a few things that need changing, but overall, not bad.

Reciprocity/Recognition

Does anybody have a complete list of the specific requirement by state? Something like:

State - requirements of WI permit to be recognized

AK - no permit required
AR - all state permits that meet same requirements as AR permittee (including 21+) or better and recognizes AR
AZ - all resident state permits if 21+ and non-AZ resident
CO - all resident state permits if 21+ and recognizes CO
HA - when Pearl Harbor freezes over
IN - all state permits without condition
KY - all state permits without condition
MI - all resident state permits without condition
NJ - are you kidding?
OR - doesn't recognize any
SC - resident permits with issuing requirements => SC (training, fingerprints..)
VT - no permit required
WA - 21+ only issue, fingerprints, background check, WA recognition

So without any specific requirements IN, KY, MI on this incomplete list are good.

apjonas said:

Does anybody have a complete list of the specific requirement by state? Something like:

State - requirements of WI permit to be recognized

AK - no permit required
AR - all state permits that meet same requirements as AR permittee (including 21+) or better and recognizes AR
AZ - all resident state permits if 21+ and non-AZ resident
CO - all resident state permits if 21+ and recognizes CO
HA - when Pearl Harbor freezes over
IN - all state permits without condition
KY - all state permits without condition
MI - all resident state permits without condition
NJ - are you kidding?
OR - doesn't recognize any
SC - resident permits with issuing requirements => SC (training, fingerprints..)
VT - no permit required
WA - 21+ only issue, fingerprints, background check, WA recognition

So without any specific requirements IN, KY, MI on this incomplete list are good.

Click to expand...

Add IA. They now recognize ANY permit.

The NRA rep stated that the exiting legislation would require WI residents to have a WI license but would recognize any other states permit. In addition, WI would not issue non-resident permits. So, my potential UT permit will not work here.

One Question

Would WI recognition be limited to residents of the issuing state and how would that impact recognition of WICCW?