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Thread: Phone Conversation with Wanggaard re: Concealed Carry

  1. #1
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    Phone Conversation with Wanggaard re: Concealed Carry

    After several emails to Sen. Van Wanggaard he placed a phone call to me last night. Here is a little summary of what we talked about.

    #1 - he did not draft the Senate Shall-Issue bill as stated by NRA-ILA, someone else (he thought it was Galloway) drafted the bill and sent it out for co-sponsors.
    #2 - he wants training, but NOT required permits.

    From our conversation it sounds as if he is drafting his own version of the concealed carry bill, Iím not certain of this though. He wants people to take a 8 hour training class with live fire (6 hour class, 2 hour live fire) to show proficiency with a handgun. The market would control the training cost. Once you have completed the training your trainer would provide you with a training certificate/card. This would allow you conceal carry in WI, you would need to show this to law enforcement if you were stopped and carrying concealed. Nothing else required to concealed carry, no permit with the state, no other fees/taxes.

    While no permit with the state would be required, you would have the option of sending a copy of your training certificate/credential in to receive a WI Concealed Carry Permit, which would allow you to receive reciprocity in other states. Fee for permit would be just to cover the costs, he said something in the $20-30 range. I asked him what department would be handling the permits, he said he hadnít figure that out yet, but mentioned Dept of Regulation or DOT.

    Our privacy was a concern of his, he does not want information on permit holders accessible to the public. He said he would prefer it to be accessible to law enforcement, but only if they look up your information by name and birth date. Basically, he is saying he doesnít just want a big list of permit holders out there, they would have to request information of a certain person (I assume during a traffic stop, issuing a warranty, etc.).

    Carrying in restaurants, taverns, etc. he fine with, just no alcohol in our system (per our current laws).

    I asked him with this training certificate/card would eliminate the Federal GFSZ, he wasnít sure, and said he would check into that as he wasnít completely sure what the requirements/working was on the Federal GFSZ.

    He said he would prefer the training aspect to apply to open carry as well, but it wouldnít be part of this bill.

    All and all, it seems as if wants something between Constitutional Carry (Right-to-Carry) and Shall-Issue. Basically, the Ďpermití is the training, but it isnít handled by the state unless you want a permit from WI for reciprocity.

    I let him know that I appreciated him call me directly, but wanted him to support the Right-to-Carry bill proposed, and that no bill should effect open carry as it is now.

  2. #2
    McX
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    vote him out.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    He's making things more convoluted than they need to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugenlude View Post
    Carrying in restaurants, taverns, etc. he fine with, just no alcohol in our system (per our current laws).
    Where in the law does it say we cannot have any alcohol in our system while carrying?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Where in the law does it say we cannot have any alcohol in our system while carrying?
    Good question, that is what he mentioned. I couldn't find anything on carrying, just regarding a homicide while under the influence...

    940.09(1g)(a)
    (a) Causes the death of another by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while under the influence of an intoxicant.

    940.09(1g)(am)
    (am) Causes the death of another by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while the person has a detectable amount of a restricted controlled substance in his or her blood.

    940.09(1g)(b)
    (b) Causes the death of another by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while the person has an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.

    940.09(1g)(c)
    (c) Causes the death of an unborn child by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while under the influence of an intoxicant.

    940.09(1g)(cm)
    (cm) Causes the death of an unborn child by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while the person has a detectable amount of a restricted controlled substance in his or her blood.

    940.09(1g)(d)
    (d) Causes the death of an unborn child by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while the person has an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugenlude View Post
    Good question, that is what he mentioned. I couldn't find anything on carrying, just regarding a homicide while under the influence...
    The other question is, what does the law say regarding self defense and having alcohol in your system?

    Hopefully soon these issues are resolved under castle doctrine.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    The other question is, what does the law say regarding self defense and having alcohol in your system?

    Hopefully soon these issues are resolved under castle doctrine.
    personally i dont drink much around the Castle, dont want to fall in the moat and get my gun all wet and rusty.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    personally i dont drink much around the Castle, dont want to fall in the moat and get my gun all wet and rusty.
    That's why you need a polymer frame.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias
    Where in the law does it say we cannot have any alcohol in our system while carrying?
    Look it up here: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/RSB/STATS.HTML

    941.20 Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon
    (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant

    939.22(42)
    "Under the influence of an intoxicant" means that the actor's ability to operate a vehicle or handle a firearm or airgun is materially impaired because of his or her consumption of an alcohol beverage...
    Hmmm... so the argument comes down to what "materially impaired" means.
    I think that one drink with dinner would not make me materially impaired.

    Am I willing to trust my fate to a jury if I have a beer w/ dinner & have to defend myself against someone who's broken into my home while I'm eating?
    I think I'd let my lawyer chew on that, & demand a blood alcohol test right away.

    I think it would be interesting to shoot a few targets, have a drink, wait 15 minutes, shoot a few more targets, repeat a time or two, & see how quickly & badly skills decline.
    (With other people around to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction & drive me home, of course.)
    Hey, an opportunity for a public-service training video!

    Luckily...:
    940.09 Homicide by intoxicated use of vehicle or firearm
    1(g)(a) Causes the death of another by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while under the influence of an intoxicant.

    940.09(2)(a) In any action under this section, the defendant has a defense if he or she proves by a preponderance of the evidence that the death would have occurred even if he or she had been exercising due care and he or she had not been under the influence of an intoxicant...
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I think it would be interesting to shoot a few targets, have a drink, wait 15 minutes, shoot a few more targets, repeat a time or two, & see how quickly & badly skills decline.
    (With other people around to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction & drive me home, of course.)
    Hey, an opportunity for a public-service training video!
    I think that would make a very good video, especially to show that alcohol does not show as much of an impairment as many claim it is. Another test (which has been tested a lot) would be driving on a closed course.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugenlude View Post
    From our conversation it sounds as if he is drafting his own version of the concealed carry bill, I’m not certain of this though. He wants people to take a 8 hour training class with live fire (6 hour class, 2 hour live fire) to show proficiency with a handgun. The market would control the training cost. Once you have completed the training your trainer would provide you with a training certificate/card. This would allow you conceal carry in WI, you would need to show this to law enforcement if you were stopped and carrying concealed. Nothing else required to concealed carry, no permit with the state, no other fees/taxes.
    You know since the "Old school republicans" are trying to submarine constitutional carry this might be a good compromise. Hear me out before you tar and feather me!

    All the stuff in the constitutional bill applies to open carry, car, school zone etc. Now if you knowingly (<==in bold to hard to type code on phone) want to go concealed you need this stupid slip from an instructor.

    Seems like a good way to expand our rights while still beating the federal school thing, making the NRA happy (its about the money at the end of the day), and making these "training solves everything" people happy. It will also make it easier to go constitutional in the future once people realize the sky isn't falling.

    So pure constitutional for carting like a gentlemen (open) and semi-constitutional with a cert that can be sent in for a permit to carry in other states.

    Hate to say it but I like it, makes everyone happy and we have an easy upgrade path to full constitutional when people smarten up.

    Of course I'd only lean that way if the current constitutional bill is a pipe dream, and it seems the old guard inters it to be.




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    *carrying like a gentlemen.

    *old guard intends.

    For some reason I can't edit. And auto fix insert thing sucks.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    You know since the "Old school republicans" are trying to submarine constitutional carry this might be a good compromise. Hear me out before you tar and feather me!

    All the stuff in the constitutional bill applies to open carry, car, school zone etc. Now if you knowingly (<==in bold to hard to type code on phone) want to go concealed you need this stupid slip from an instructor.

    Seems like a good way to expand our rights while still beating the federal school thing, making the NRA happy (its about the money at the end of the day), and making these "training solves everything" people happy. It will also make it easier to go constitutional in the future once people realize the sky isn't falling.

    So pure constitutional for carting like a gentlemen (open) and semi-constitutional with a cert that can be sent in for a permit to carry in other states.

    Hate to say it but I like it, makes everyone happy and we have an easy upgrade path to full constitutional when people smarten up.

    Of course I'd only lean that way if the current constitutional bill is a pipe dream, and it seems the old guard inters it to be.




    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
    Not me.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    garbage

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    Interesting thought on 'impaired' or under the influence of an intoxicant. What's an intoxicant? Is caffeine an intoxicant? What about a legally prescribed medication?

    I think the concern is that it may impair judgment of when to fire, or in the case of an 'angry drunk' the onset of rage, not precision at the range, lol.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I think the concern is that it may impair judgment of when to fire.
    That may be so. But I do believe that my blood alcohol level, regardless of how high or low it may be, does not negate my Right to defend my life. If I act unjustly, I will fall under the same scrutiny as any other man and will pay any debt should one be judged upon me after a fair trial.

    Thus, under the same premise as my signature quote, I have to not support an alcohol/tavern provision that disallows carry.

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    They just don't get it, do they. All the polls, in even at the JS, and all of the e-mails, letters , and calls, and they still want to put their own views ahead of their constituents. 8 hours of training is just a bunch of BS from someone who is seemingly can't let go of the law enforcement roots he was touting during election time.. If a person wants some training, well by all means get it. If we end up with a permit because we can't get constitutional carry, I'll pay the money. But.... to be in a class for 8 hrs and undoubtedly be looked at like an imbicile by some vulture taking advantage of us would really tick me off. Plus, if the market drives the cost, lord help us all. This training will surely cost $250-$500. Glad we all had to have the manditory trainig to open carry... wait, I guess we didn't need it. Is that 8 hrs needed to show us how to cover the gun up properly?

    It sounds like that dude needs to look around his own views and see what public opionion is on this issue, or get voted out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckdog View Post
    They just don't get it, do they. All the polls, in even at the JS, and all of the e-mails, letters , and calls, and they still want to put their own views ahead of their constituents.
    My Senator's office is waiting for a more scientific poll. They hold no stock in online polls.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    I can guarantee you there will be a reckoning at the poles if they do not pass Constitutional Carry. These RINO Fitzgeralds need to retire. We as gun owners must take on the responsibility of cleaning up and getting rid of these faux conservatives. I am not impressed. Do not like settling. Open carry requires no permit, training or other BS. Yet if my jacket falls over my gun, all of a sudden, I need training. BS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    I can guarantee you there will be a reckoning at the poles if they do not pass Constitutional Carry. These RINO Fitzgeralds need to retire. We as gun owners must take on the responsibility of cleaning up and getting rid of these faux conservatives. I am not impressed. Do not like settling. Open carry requires no permit, training or other BS. Yet if my jacket falls over my gun, all of a sudden, I need training. BS.
    its amazing how many people come out of the woodwork with the general statement "we cant just let anyone carry a gun without training and permits"

    People... we ALREADY can, some of us would just rather not have it out in the open for the fear mongers to see and make a big fuss about it.

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