Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: State of Virginia named defendant in latest Gura lawsuit on DC Gun Ban

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    State of Virginia named defendant in latest Gura lawsuit on DC Gun Ban

    See next post... skip #1 for wide formatting.

    TFred

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Press Release from Second Amendment Foundation

    Link to complaint

    TFred

    Here's the press release:

    SAF CHALLENGES INTERSTATE HANDGUN SALES BAN
    For Immediate Release: 5/10/2011

    BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation today filed suit in U.S. District Court in Virginia challenging the constitutionality of federal and Virginia provisions barring handgun sales to non-residents.

    SAF is joined in the lawsuit by Michelle Lane, a District of Columbia resident who cannot legally purchase handguns because there are no retail firearms dealers inside the District. The Supreme Court’s 2008 Heller ruling struck down the District’s handgun ban, confirming that individuals have a constitutional right to possess handguns.

    SAF and Lane are represented by attorney Alan Gura of Gura & Possessky, PLLC, who won both the Heller ruling and last year’s Supreme Court victory in McDonald v. City of Chicago. Named as defendants are Attorney General Eric Holder and W. Steven Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police.

    “This is an important issue in the era of the national instant background check,” said SAF Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb. “The NICS check should allow law-abiding citizens like Miss Lane to exercise their Second Amendment rights regardless their place of residence.”

    “Americans don’t check their constitutional rights at the state line,” said Gura. “And since Michelle Lane is legally entitled to possess firearms, forcing her to seek a non-existing D.C. dealer to buy a handgun is pointless when perfectly legitimate options exist minutes across the Potomac River.”

    “The Supreme Court has ruled that District residents have an individual right, protected by the Constitution, to have a handgun in their home,” Gottlieb noted. “The high court has also ruled that the Second Amendment applies to the states. Existing state and federal statutes violate both the spirit and letter of recent court rulings and the Constitution, and our lawsuit seeks to remedy that situation.”

    The Second Amendment Foundation (www.saf.org) is the nation's oldest and largest tax-exempt education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the Constitutional right and heritage to privately own and possess firearms. Founded in 1974, The Foundation has grown to more than 650,000 members and supporters and conducts many programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control. SAF has previously funded successful firearms-related suits against the cities of Los Angeles; New Haven, CT; and San Francisco on behalf of American gun owners, a lawsuit against the cities suing gun makers and an amicus brief and fund for the Emerson case holding the Second Amendment as an individual right.

    -END-

    From the complaint:

    11. Va. Code § 18.2-308.2:2 bars a firearms dealer from selling handguns, but not rifles or shotguns, to individuals who do not reside in Virginia.

    12. Owing to the operation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(3), 27 CFR § 478.99, and Va. Code § 18.2-308.2:2, Ms. Lane cannot take possession of her handguns from the Lorton, Virginia firearms dealer from whom she ordered the handguns. In order to for Ms. Lane to take possession of her handguns, the Virginia dealer must first transfer them to a federal firearms licensee in the District of Columbia, who could, in turn, transfer the handguns to Ms. Lane.

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    I suspect that they will get more support than opposition from Virginians. I see this as having the potential for much good.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I suspect that they will get more support than opposition from Virginians. I see this as having the potential for much good.
    Yep!

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    I do to, but I guess we need to start loading up on Tums for Cuccinelli's response.

    I wish he would for once do the right thing and say, "Yep, our law is wrong..."

    TFred

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,715
    I have no problem with this and I hope my fellow Virginians agree. We should be willing to help the subjects of D.C. to arm themselves, and our FFL's would like the extra business. And how ironic if Gura wins: Bloomberg will bust an artery if the highest court says VA has an obligation to help people in other areas to arm themselves.

    We need to keep our momentum moving quickly to establish as many new beachheads as possible. I hate to be the proverbial wet blanket, but it is possible that Obama may get another 4 years, and that could mean naming more liberal supreme court justices. If that comes to pass, I want us to be in the strongest position possible to deal with the inevitable onslaught.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    We need to keep our momentum moving quickly to establish as many new beachheads as possible. I hate to be the proverbial wet blanket, but it is possible that Obama may get another 4 years, and that could mean naming more liberal supreme court justices. If that comes to pass, I want us to be in the strongest position possible to deal with the inevitable onslaught.
    Yes, we do and it appears that it's happening. May it continue!

    I really doubt Obama can do it but if nothing else, he's darned smart and the Republicans have a proven track record of running the WRONG person when the tide is in their favor.

    There are some possible twists with this though. It really revolves around the instant background check, something I hate and the anti's love. That may bite them in the backsides if this wins.

    On the other hand, if this turns on us and provides fuel for checks on ALL gun purchases including private sales, I'm gonna be looking to put some knots on the SAF.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-11-2011 at 05:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    I have no problem with this and I hope my fellow Virginians agree. We should be willing to help the subjects of D.C. to arm themselves, and our FFL's would like the extra business. And how ironic if Gura wins: Bloomberg will bust an artery if the highest court says VA has an obligation to help people in other areas to arm themselves.

    We need to keep our momentum moving quickly to establish as many new beachheads as possible. I hate to be the proverbial wet blanket, but it is possible that Obama may get another 4 years, and that could mean naming more liberal supreme court justices. If that comes to pass, I want us to be in the strongest position possible to deal with the inevitable onslaught.
    Good choice of words, Dutch.

    I agree wholeheartedly, but expect Bloomberg to file an amicus brief on behalf of the defendants. This lawsuit would be a major threat to his campaign. It (the brief) would also be a major embarrassment to Gov McDonnell and the AG.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  9. #9
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Yorktown, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,803
    I never understood why I can't buy a firearm in another state while visiting without it going through a VA FFL. They got the Federal criminal database, the VA one is redundant. Hopefully this lawsuit abolishes the limits for all states/district/territories not just DC.

    If I am on vacation in FL and my gun is stolen from my vehicle/hotel room, I can't go to a local gun store and replace it. So the current law would force me to be disarmed until returning to my home state. (whats that about "shall not be infringed"?)

  10. #10
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    1,896
    Me wonders how gun control commandant Helmke will spin this issue (DC residents not able to purchase firearms, demanding access to Virginia gun stores for purchase) as a "common sense" issue. Let me try:

    "It's only common sense that we keep FFL's a considerable distance (1000 feet) away from schools, daycares, churches, community centers, and other "sensitive places". This common sense measure will ensure that nobody can operate an FFL in our nations capitol, as there are NO places outside this 1000 foot fantasy zone for them to operate. High fives all around!"

    See it's not gun control, it's common sense!

  11. #11
    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Henrico, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    697

    I always thought it was a Federal code....

    That you could buy long guns in your state and bordering states but handguns only in your state of residence. I had always attributed that to the Gun Control Act of 1968. I would be glad to have that preconception wrong. Busting that prohibition loose would be quite wonderful.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    That you could buy long guns in your state and bordering states but handguns only in your state of residence. I had always attributed that to the Gun Control Act of 1968. I would be glad to have that preconception wrong. Busting that prohibition loose would be quite wonderful.
    I believe your right!
    This suit is challenging the handgun sales ban.
    Virginia may ban non residents from buying long guns. I'll have to look at that again.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I believe your right!
    This suit is challenging the handgun sales ban.
    Virginia may ban non residents from buying long guns. I'll have to look at that again.
    5. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states under the terms of subsections A and B upon furnishing the dealer with proof of citizenship or status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence and one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.2:2
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Alan Gura should direct his client, Michelle Lane to go see Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center to facilitate her transfer. He currently holds a valid Class 01 FFL and can do transfers under DCs and Federal laws...

    Josh Sugarmann
    Violence Policy Center
    1730 Rhode Island Avenue, NW
    Suite 1014
    Washington, DC 20036

    Phone: (202) 822-8200
    url: www.vpc.org

    Sugarmann's complete FFL number is Number 1-54-000-01-8C-00725



    I don't know about y'all, but I'd LOVE to have a video of that conversation...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    That you could buy long guns in your state and bordering states but handguns only in your state of residence. I had always attributed that to the Gun Control Act of 1968. I would be glad to have that preconception wrong. Busting that prohibition loose would be quite wonderful.
    You're mostly correct. The "bordering states" was eliminated with FOPA '86. Now, long guns can be bought in any state, so long as the the laws of the purchaser's state and the state of purchase both allow it.

    But, that's a federal matter, and under Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution they have the authority to regulate interstate commerce. The Congress has the sole authority to restrict interstate commerce; the states themselves do not have any authority over interstate sales.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    You're mostly correct. The "bordering states" was eliminated with FOPA '86. Now, long guns can be bought in any state, so long as the the laws of the purchaser's state and the state of purchase both allow it.

    But, that's a federal matter, and under Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution they have the authority to regulate interstate commerce. The Congress has the sole authority to restrict interstate commerce; the states themselves do not have any authority over interstate sales.

    From what I read....VA also has a "handgun purchase by residents only" law...

  17. #17
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    It would appear that a resident of another state (or DC) could legally purchase a handgun in Virginia from an FFL.

    § 18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.
    C. No dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any firearm, except when the transaction involves a rifle or a shotgun and can be accomplished pursuant to the provisions of subdivision B 5 to any person who is not a resident of Virginia unless he has first obtained from the Department of State Police a report indicating that a search of all available criminal history record information has not disclosed that the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm under state or federal law. The dealer shall obtain the required report by mailing or delivering the written consent form required under subsection A to the State Police within 24 hours of its execution. If the dealer has complied with the provisions of this subsection and has not received the required report from the State Police within 10 days from the date the written consent form was mailed to the Department of State Police, he shall not be deemed in violation of this section for thereafter completing the sale or transfer.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    You're mostly correct. The "bordering states" was eliminated with FOPA '86. Now, long guns can be bought in any state, so long as the the laws of the purchaser's state and the state of purchase both allow it.

    But, that's a federal matter, and under Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution they have the authority to regulate interstate commerce. The Congress has the sole authority to restrict interstate commerce; the states themselves do not have any authority over interstate sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    From what I read....VA also has a "handgun purchase by residents only" law...
    I believe you missed my point: Virginia can pass all the laws they want saying that only residents may purchase handguns, or cigarettes, or gasoline, or Goo-Goo pies, but those laws would be in direct violation of Article 1, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution, which says that the Congress alone has the power to regulate interstate sales.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Never Never Land
    Posts
    514
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yes, we do and it appears that it's happening. May it continue!

    I really doubt Obama can do it but if nothing else, he's darned smart and the Republicans have a proven track record of running the WRONG person when the tide is in their favor.

    There are some possible twists with this though. It really revolves around the instant background check, something I hate and the anti's love. That may bite them in the backsides if this wins.

    On the other hand, if this turns on us and provides fuel for checks on ALL gun purchases including private sales, I'm gonna be looking to put some knots on the SAF.
    We can all hope the right questions are ask.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    I hope SAF serves Sugarmann with a subpoena to testify in this case. When he explains that the reason why he can't do Mr. Lane's transfer is because he's not zoned to do commercial sales, someone needs to instruct the Bailiff of the Court to have him arrested for falsifying a Federal Application...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  21. #21
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    This lawsuit is brilliant.

    Eric Holder will have to defend a law whose authority comes from the interstate commerce clause (regulation of interstate commerce) but which actually prohibits interstate commerce and requires intrastate commerce.

    Now that the 2nd A applies to the states via the 14th, state laws which prohibit free trade will have a hard time surviving in Federal Courts.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    There are a ton of bad gun laws which are now outdated by modern technology, including any laws which limit purchases to "one gun a month", etc.

    TFred

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    I like their angle.

    Instead of attacking the ban on Gun Shops, they attack the Interstate Commerce Scam. The NICS invention being turned against them, requiring Interstate Commerce while prohibiting the same...

    Indeed, I like this. Brilliant way to land on it.
    Last edited by ixtow; 05-16-2011 at 11:47 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I like their angle.

    Instead of attacking the ban on Gun Shops, they attack the Interstate Commerce Scam. The NICS invention being turned against them, requiring Interstate Commerce while prohibiting the same...

    Indeed, I like this. Brilliant way to land on it.
    I am glad you see it that way as well.

    The other thing I like about it is there will be great infighting amongst the gun grabbers. California has a scheme where out of state dealers can ship into CA but need CA permission first. DC would be very opposed to this. Could you imagine a CA brief that supports Gura?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  25. #25
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    14th A does not applyto DC, only to states, but GCA 1968 says DC is a state, so will 14th A due process apply to DC with respect to GCA?

    DC can't have it both ways (treat like a state with due process for gun rights in DC, or out - no GCA for DC)

    Lots of big land mines for DC.

    Imagine due process claims in the 2nd Circuit, where there are no 14th A precidents. What a magnificent playground for Gura!
    Last edited by Thundar; 05-17-2011 at 11:19 AM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •