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Thread: Alochol and carrying

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Alcohol and carrying

    Current WI law re: alcohol & carrying
    This came up in another thread & I finally went searching for the answer:
    (Tried posting it in my blog & was told that wasn't an appropriate use of a blog.)
    Quote Originally Posted by a WI Carry member
    Where in the law does it say we cannot have any alcohol in our system while carrying?
    Look it up here: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/RSB/STATS.HTML

    941.20 Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon
    (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant

    939.22(42)
    "Under the influence of an intoxicant" means that the actor's ability to operate a vehicle or handle a firearm or airgun is materially impaired because of his or her consumption of an alcohol beverage...
    Hmmm... so the argument comes down to what "materially impaired" means.
    If I'm ever forced to defend myself, & I've had a drink with dinner, I'll demand an immediate blood-alcohol test & my lawyer, then let her stew about the definition.
    It'd be nice if the legislature clarified the law to the same .08% for DUI.

    Luckily...:
    940.09 Homicide by intoxicated use of vehicle or firearm
    1(g)(a) Causes the death of another by the operation or handling of a firearm or airgun while under the influence of an intoxicant.

    940.09(2)(a) In any action under this section, the defendant has a defense if he or she proves by a preponderance of the evidence that the death would have occurred even if he or she had been exercising due care and he or she had not been under the influence of an intoxicant...
    So if the BG attacks & doesn't stop once he's looking at the business end of a pistol, I think that would be pretty clear evidence.
    I don't plan to ever be under the influence, as defined in the law, while carrying, so I don't think it'll be a problem for me.

    ...

    So leading back to another discussion from months ago...
    This seems to show that someone could have a "pistol tavern", where carry is permitted & people can have a drink while playing darts or pool or watching the game.

    If I were running the place, when people bought their one bit of alcohol for the evening I'd put a stamp on their hand (or dip their finger in ink or some such), then they'd get 25c soda the rest of the night.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 05-11-2011 at 11:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    When you look at the chart (from wiki) at 0.08% many people are quite impaired.

    0.0100.029
    Effect
    * Average individual appears
    normal

    Impairment effect:
    * Subtle effects that can be
    detected with special tests
    -----------------

    0.0300.059
    Effect:
    * Mild euphoria
    * Relaxation
    * Joyousness
    * Talkativeness
    * Decreased inhibition

    Impairment effect:
    * Concentration
    -----------------

    0.060.09
    Effect
    * Blunted feelings
    * Disinhibition
    * Extraversion

    Impairment effect:
    * Reasoning
    * Depth perception
    * Peripheral vision
    * Glare recovery
    =======

  3. #3
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Percentage of deer hunters that do carry a firearm impaired 40% 60%

    I know it's not 0%.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I have no problem with drinking and carrying. Why? Because we are able to drink and then drive a 1-2 ton vehicle at the speed limit (usually freeways) and that is okay. Why does a holstered firearm all of a sudden cause fear? That's like saying, I'll have a beer, but that's going to cause me to rape someone. It's a straw man argument. Most states allow drinking and carrying and yet see no problems. Why? Because law abiding citizens don't cause problems.

    How many fights are in clubs or near them? How are you going to be able to defend yourself if you face larger or multiple attackers? Perhaps the criminal does have a weapon of some kind besides fists. What do you do? Do you call 911 and tell the criminal to wait until the police get there before he starts beating on you, or do you pull out Mr. Colt and defend yourself?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  5. #5
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    The idea that one could imbibe an alcoholic beverage and carry is dangerous to my way of thinking. I don't think it should be any different than driving a car at least and probably not a good idea at all. Alcohol provides all manner of stupid and the more you drink the stupider you are. Don't even begin to argue that point. As for having "a" beer or glass of wine, sure. 3 of them, not so much and any more than three, you are mixing a recipe for disaster.

    Worst case you kill someone and because you are drunk, sure maybe you don't think so but maybe a jury does, you lose your freedom, your life as you know it, your family and your belongings. Further, you may never own a gun again.

    Just because you had to have a beer or two or three. Does not ring the smart bell in my book.

    .08 is the law in Wisconsin. At one drink, you are at about .02-.03, 3 drinks you are at .06-.07, 5 drinks and you are at or over .08. You're busted...
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Some people are 'angry drunks' and it's not clear to me at what BAC percentage this behavior shift occurs. This lowered inhibition and heightened violence is a recipe for disaster if you are carrying.

    In the book I just got by Chris Bird on CC (*), in the sub-heading 'Know Yourself', one incident he talks about is a friend who got a permit and was carrying and (somehow) realized he had road rage issues. He reported being afraid he'd lose it and shoot someone so he (reportedly) sold his guns and didn't renew his permit.

    He probably made a good decision (says Bird). If you are not mature and responsible enough to carry and make good decisions then you shouldn't be carrying, imo (nor should you be driving, but that's another issue).

    It doesn't mean he had no right to defend himself. Since the laws on drinking and carrying are vague, you're fighting an additional battle beyond SD it seems to me. Why go there?

    It's hard enough to get off in a good shoot. I would not want to risk my freedom like that. Hopefully, the majority feels the same way and does not drink and carry.

    $.02

    (*) Concealed HG Manual, pg 151

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    Laws with tolerances are simply retarded. Everyone should simply be responsible for their behavior and everyone should have equal consequence based upon their actions.

    I've never had a problem with anyone carrying while or after drinking (Perfectly legal in IN). Most people are responsible. And once again people who don't want to follow laws simply won't.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    .08 is the law in Wisconsin...
    You are issued 2 seperate citations when you get pulled over in WI. Only 1 is Operating with a prohibited BAC of .08 or greater.
    The other is for simply operating while under the influence of an intoxicant (includes any drug or combination of alcohol and drug).

    The .08 is a slam dunk, end of story. The jury instruction for "under the influence" says that you may be found guilty if any amount no matter how small causes you to operate your vehicle less safely than if you had zero amount in your system. If you are in the tiniest fender bender and you have been drinking, you may find yourself at the mercy of a jury.

    Relating this to the carry of firearms, if you get into ANY confrontation with someone including an exchange of words only while you are armed and you have any alcohol in your system you may find yourself defending a citation. Never mind if you have to actually draw your weapon and use it while you have any alcohol in your system. I pity the person who has alcohol in their system, gets pulled over while operating their vehicle and they are otherwise legally carrying a firearm under our new "law" once it gets past. You may beat the rap but you will not beat the ride (getting a citation at a minimum) should you find yourself facing an unreasonable officer.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    If you are not mature and responsible enough to carry and make good decisions then you shouldn't be carrying.....
    If you are not prepared to act faster and more decisive than an attacker, you should also not be carrying. More simply put, if you are not prepared to use your weapon, you should not be carrying it. Your weapon could easily be used against you or someone else.
    There is a video on youtube where a knife wielding man was facing off with a police officer who had their weapon in their hand. The police officer hesitated to shoot and the man struck a fatal blow with a single stab of the knife. Another officer was nearby who then shot the knife wielding man.

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    If you are not prepared to act faster and more decisive than an attacker, you should also not be carrying. More simply put, if you are not prepared to use your weapon, you should not be carrying it. Your weapon could easily be used against you or someone else.
    There is a video on youtube where a knife wielding man was facing off with a police officer who had their weapon in their hand. The police officer hesitated to shoot and the man struck a fatal blow with a single stab of the knife. Another officer was nearby who then shot the knife wielding man.
    Agree with both your posts.
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Bring up alcohol and some of you guys turn in to anti's comparing your right to defend yourself to the privilege of driving a motor vehicle........ hilarious.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Bring up alcohol and some of you guys turn in to anti's comparing your right to defend yourself to the privilege of driving a motor vehicle........ hilarious.
    You're kind of missing the point. There are bad consequences (which may in and of themselves be unfair) for imbibing and carrying. The only reason driving is being brought in is the existence of a BAC limit which is defined as impaired. It may be irrelevant, except for the purposes of comparison.

  13. #13
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    You're kind of missing the point. There are bad consequences (which may in and of themselves be unfair) for imbibing and carrying. The only reason driving is being brought in is the existence of a BAC limit which is defined as impaired. It may be irrelevant, except for the purposes of comparison.
    Yup, the mere presence of alcohol may land you in jail, ruin your life. You could lose your right to own a gun. EVER! Why in the world would you take that chance?
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    I'm not missing a damn thing.

    Someone said they don't believe drinking/carrying should be any different than drinking/driving... inferring that the same restrictions should apply. I also read the usual fear mongering, such as your comments regarding "recipe for disaster". Give me a break.

    My point, which you're missing, is that some of the same people I read here squawking and shaking their fists in the air with indignation turn around and then use some of the same arguments as the antis trying to limit our right to defend our lives with the most effective means necessary.

    It's just now that we're out of YOUR comfort range, you feel it's OK to use the same irrational arguments.

  15. #15
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I'm not missing a damn thing.

    Someone said they don't believe drinking/carrying should be any different than drinking/driving... inferring that the same restrictions should apply. I also read the usual fear mongering, such as your comments regarding "recipe for disaster". Give me a break.

    My point, which you're missing, is that some of the same people I read here squawking and shaking their fists in the air with indignation turn around and then use some of the same arguments as the antis trying to limit our right to defend our lives with the most effective means necessary.

    It's just now that we're out of YOUR comfort range, you feel it's OK to use the same irrational arguments.
    Not sure I get your meaning here Trip. What I am talking about has actually happened to others in other states. Alcohol in the blood stream indicates impairment to a jury. Colors their view of you "defending" yourself. My point is if you are a drunk, a drinker, your chances are "much" greater that you will be found guilty by a jury and suffer greater consequences because you choose to drink. I am not saying you shouldn't drink, your choice. I am just saying that the consequences will be greater for you than the non-drinker. Not conjecture, fact.
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    When it gets to court, how will the jury react to the defensive shooter if they have ANY alcohol in their blood? Yep, the state will be providing food and shelter for an indefinite amount of time. Maybe an alternative life style partner too, no extra charge.

    Should concealed carry be prohibited in a place that serves alcohol? No! The person carrying can be the designated driver AND the designated carrier.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Your opinion as to how a jury will react when introduced to BAC evidence is meaningless. Any decent lawyer can convey the Reasonable Person standard and the Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy premise to a jury.

    My meaning is one's blood alcohol level, regardless of how high or low it may be, does not negate one's Right to defense of life and limb. The same dangers you face sober you may face under the influence of alcohol. Just or unjust acts with a firearm are just that. If you use a firearm unjustly due to alcohol, anger issues, inability to cope with stress, depression, or a myriad of other reasons... you should pay the price.

    So I say leave the alcohol/tavern exclusions in the toilet where they belong. I don't want my right to defend my life to end at the door step to a tavern or the bottle cap of a bottle of beer simply because some people might abuse their rights and act irresponsibly.

  18. #18
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I don't want my right to defend my life to end at the door step to a tavern or the bottle cap of a bottle of beer simply because some people might abuse their rights and act irresponsibly.
    Neither do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Your opinion as to how a jury will react when introduced to BAC evidence is meaningless. Any decent lawyer can convey the Reasonable Person standard and the Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy premise to a jury.
    Spoken like a man who has never had to fight for his freedom in court. And I don't mean facing 6 months, I mean facing years. You already know what sheep the average citizen is, but you believe a good lawyer will change these sheep into competent people. I think you are too optimistic and I hope you never have to see that theory through.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    I'm not optimistic nor am I going to allow this to turn in to a debate as to how Law & Order courtroom drama equates to real life. How a trial will transpire is unknown until it's over.

    At any rate, that's for me to worry about since I'm responsible for my own actions. Thus, I'd prefer to be the designated carrier and enjoy a tall pint of beer, thank you.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I'm not missing a damn thing.

    Someone said they don't believe drinking/carrying should be any different than drinking/driving... inferring that the same restrictions should apply. I also read the usual fear mongering, such as your comments regarding "recipe for disaster". Give me a break.

    My point, which you're missing, is that some of the same people I read here squawking and shaking their fists in the air with indignation turn around and then use some of the same arguments as the antis trying to limit our right to defend our lives with the most effective means necessary.

    It's just now that we're out of YOUR comfort range, you feel it's OK to use the same irrational arguments.
    Not saying this applies to anybody in this thread, but I've sure noticed this tendency.

  21. #21
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I'd prefer to be the designated carrier and enjoy a tall pint of beer, thank you.
    Best of luck with that.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    At any rate, that's for me to worry about since I'm responsible for my own actions. Thus, I'd prefer to be the designated carrier and enjoy a tall pint of beer, thank you.
    I don't drink (alcohol gives me headaches), but I long for the day when people don't conjure some problem with this.

    Your approach assigns responsibility and encourages its exercise. Others seek to usurp responsibility, rendering individual exercise thereof increasingly irrelevant, with the inevitable result that responsibility is not exercised, leaving things worse off than they would be otherwise.

    It's no different with DUI laws, for the record.
    Last edited by marshaul; 05-12-2011 at 01:06 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I don't mix booze and things that can kill me or someone else.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  24. #24
    McX
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    i'll hold you guy's guns while you drink, maybe you'll get realy loaded, forget, and i'll get to keep them.

  25. #25
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    IK:

    On this you and I are 100% in agreement.

    Drinking and guns? Zero tolerance, PERIOD and I don't care whose OX i gored.

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