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Thread: A point of failure.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    A point of failure.

    I was pondering a point of logical disparity.

    People who carry guns tend to be a demographic populated by individuals who don't scare easily. Perhaps augmented by the fact that they are carrying a gun...

    My point is, those who don't share the hard-to-scare mind, and who don't carry, are probably misinterpreting 'fear for one's life.'

    We may laugh at them and call them panty-wetters, etc... But the fact is, they're people, too. I'm loathe to admit...

    I'm sure we're all familiar with the tactic of one being helpless trying to bring others down to their level. that, also, is not what I'm getting at.

    I'm saying that we often try to debate with these people on a ground they cannot comprehend. They are afraid of everything. They don't know what it's like to have confidence, and the capacity to follow through. It's like trying to describe a rainbow to someone who was born blind. You're never going to get it in their head.

    I'm trying to put a finer point on the problem, and how one might educate a person of that sort. How do you teach the blind about rainbows? Yes, they are crude and insulting. Yes, they're a kind of person who you probably don't want to be around. But so was Helen Keller until 'it clicked.' They're still people. How can we make that click?

    Some are willfully opposed, knowing their position is a sick lie. Promoting anti for their own hateful pleasures. But I think we're overlooking the fact that these people are at a disadvantage. It's like communicating with a dog. They can't speak English, so we have to learn to speak dog. How do we do this with the ignorant anti? How do we explain our position in terms they actually understand, instead of assign totally different meanings and miss the point every time?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    I've long-since given up on trying to "educate" anyone else on anything else, who is isnt willing to take the info, or who hasnt asked for it.
    On this matter, in particular, folks have their minds largely made up by the time they are adults. Unless/until something happens in their life, rarely are they otherwise inclined.

    Those of us who "get it" get it well. Those who dont? We often refer to as victims.
    Natural Selection takes care of the rest.

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    Well I just read a very long article about that very issue. Here are some points I got from that article. First and foremeost no amount of logic is gonna make a difference. They don't think the way we do. Accdept that fact. Next take down the wall by imagining that you have never been around a gun, never heard anything but negative about it, and had no idea how to use one. Imagine yourself in the cockpit of a running fighter jet with no knowledge even how to shut it off. Next ask them to explain how they feel and really listen. Let me say that some know better and will always be anti ( it is a free country). Most folks fear the unknown and as strage as it sounds most have never ever even explored guns or the security they may offer. Accept their understanding and kindly offer understanding of their point of view. They will hear you much better once they know you can hear them. You may plant a seed that will grow someday and hopefully another will help them get one more step closer.
    Last edited by timezoneguy; 05-12-2011 at 05:45 PM.

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    I think one way would be let them come to answer their own question. You have to frame it where you answer a question with a question, then hopefully they come to a answer themselves and see where they were misinformed. Thats how Socrates thought Plato and his students.

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    Regular Member Operator_223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x View Post
    I think one way would be let them come to answer their own question. You have to frame it where you answer a question with a question, then hopefully they come to a answer themselves and see where they were misinformed. Thats how Socrates thought Plato and his students.
    "well if a hairy 300 pound ape came through your window at 3 am with a giant bulge in the front of his pants, which would you rather have at the moment:

    a plastic whistle -or-


    a .357 magnum pistol

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    neither, Id rather have a 300 lb female ape in heat to distract said male.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

    Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington

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    Some of the better ways I've seen are to do things like ask them if they wear a seatbelt in a car, then ask if they plan to get into an accident. After that simply state that the gun is your seatbelt for crime. Or when I've had people ask me why I carry even at home I state "because 100% of home invasions happen in the home." Should they press the issue I simply state that if I was expecting a home invasion I wouldn't be at home, but that it's much like wearing a seatbelt because one doesn't expect to be in an accident.

    I would say that short statements/questions that relate the carrying of a weapon to something they already do (typically wearing of a seatbelt). Obviously some people aren't going to listen regardless, but those that are simply ignorant can still potentially be taught, and relating it to their everyday actions is the easiest.

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    I will help anybody who deserves it! Anyone can ask me to show them, give advise, or whatever.
    As far as "educating" the public, " I couldnt care less" . That's a big wast of time. Anyone who wants help or has a question will most likely look for assistence or answers. At that point I try my best to be helpful.
    I dont give a crap what the Anti's think! I would rather spend my time make stuff "legal" so their opinions cant negativly affect those of us who choose to exercise our rights.
    "When the libtards address me in person, I simply tell them to shut their ignorant mouth or I will take their verbal assault as a threat against my personal safety"!
    " Im big and scary so it works pretty well".
    I wont wast a second of time on stupid people!
    Last edited by MR Redenck; 05-26-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is my unrelenting optimism... I'm always trying to fix what is broken. Some people break things on purpose...

    May it's projection, because I take being wrong and harmful personally. But, I presume others don't like being fooled. Maybe they love their lies too much.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    I will help anybody who deserves it! Anyone can ask me to show them, give advise, or whatever.
    As far as "educating" the public, " I couldnt care less" . That's a big wast of time.
    Excellent point! Half of all U.S. households have guns, but only around 2% carry, less a tenth of that is open carry. Why waste time on the other 98% or more of them who don't care or are not interested?

    About a year and a half ago, shortly after I discovered OCDO, I became involved on other websites which discuss 2A rights from different angles, some of which were antagonistic. I'd like to think I persuaded some, but in hindsight I probably caused as many others to simply steel their resolve.

    I would rather spend my time make stuff "legal" so their opinions cant negativly affect those of us who choose to exercise our rights.
    That's a well-focused way of approaching things.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    As far as "educating" the public ... That's a big wast of time. Anyone who wants help or has a question will most likely look for assistence or answers. At that point I try my best to be helpful.
    I'm suggesting, give them a reason to ask. If you look like just another Sheeple, what reason will they have to ask you anything?

    I live in a Red State. But I OC various gun-ish things as conversation starters. The immediate argument is that I'm an attention *****. I hate attention, I hate human beings. I go out of my way to do what I can to promote OC in a way that lets others approach me. Gun owners here are self-subjugating, they'll jump to any insulting conclusion to justify their own laziness or cowardice.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I have had some interesting conversations with individuals about guns and self defense. There are those that live in their carefully constructed fantasy world that won't hear reason logic or anything else. Their only hope is that they will survive a life & death encounter and learn from it. Given their mentality they may not learn from it just like the guy from Virginia Tech that was shot, survived and now works for the Brady bunch. I waste little time arguing with such people.

    Then there are the folks that are simply negligent in their responsibilities and once woken up may change. For example I have had some conversations with other Dads/Moms and asked them how they will defend their kids when a bad guy breaks down their door. Their usual response is to call 911 so I educate them as to what a bad guy can do to them in the 10 minutes to hours that it takes a police officer to respond. After thinking about it they tend to get the idea that having a weapon might have some value.

    One of my friends isn't anti but is afraid to have a gun in the house. The funny thing is that he and his wife don't want one because she is so easily frightened that he thinks she might shoot him when he comes home late from work. Basically they don't trust themselves with a gun. I have offered to take him/her to the range but they don't seem interested. He is younger than I so he hasn't noticed the slowing down (older fatter slower) that I have so he thinks he can handle himself. We'll see over time if he changes.

    So I stress:
    1) responsibility (kids, family)
    2) 911 response time (lack of, and lack of duty to defend you)
    3) age, slowness, disabilities (the great equalizer)
    4) safety & proper handling of a firearm

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck
    As far as "educating" the public, I couldn't care less. That's a big waste of time.
    I disagree. I'm quite aware that every time I'm in public there are probably some people who notice that I'm carrying, see that I'm not acting unusual for the situation, & somewhere in their brain they put a tick under the "gun does not equal criminal" column.

    That's educating the public just as much as handing out fliers or giving a seminar. (Which I think can also be useful, esp. the seminar.)

    I would rather spend my time making stuff legal so their opinions can't negativly affect those of us who choose to exercise our rights.
    Good idea. But in order to get laws passed or repealed, they have to be voted on. Lawmakers (are supposed to) listen to the people.

    If enough people who are alarmed, uninformed, or hateful (anti's) contact them to vote against civil rights, it might not offset the number of contacts from rational, informed civil rights supporters.

    when the libtards address me in person, I simply tell them to shut their ignorant mouth or I will take their verbal assault as a threat against my personal safety
    If it works for you, keep doing it.
    But I see that as waaay over the top argumentative & antagonistic, & I'm in favor of armed citizens.
    Much better to either ignore them, shake your head & walk away, or reply rationally & calmly.
    Don't reinforce their beliefs that "all gun owners are uneducated idiot hotheads".

    However, if they follow you and create a scene & act belligerent themselves, as the antagonist in this thread did, definitely call police!

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    You can lead people to logic, but you can't make them think. It"s best; for all, to just walk away. After all this time, with facts on our side, they have to find out the hard way. They point around, oh, their world's going to hell, while ours, is getting better. Our small victories far overshadow their large ones. We live with peace of mind, they wonder if they turned their alarm system on to allow time to do nothing. When presented with a choice to either pray to my maker, or the perpetrator praying to his, I'll take the latter. A friend in freedom, Dennis Hamm.
    Last edited by wild boar; 05-29-2011 at 06:10 AM.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    I lived 61 years without a handgun. Didn't need one. Didn't want one. And I've also lived 61 years without need of a fire extinguisher. Never needed to use one, but I had one. I've never needed that fire extinguisher yet. But it is there if I need it. On the one night when I might have needed a handgun, I didn't have one. When that criminal pointed his weapon right in my face to demand the money in my pocket, I felt vulnerable and violated. Worse, there wasn't much I could do about it. After all, it wasn't like I had any means of defending myself. No, I never needed a handgun; until the night I needed one that I didn't have.

    While living in Colorado Springs, my home was broken into twice by burglars. It dawned on me that if they'd come while we were home, I would not have been prepared to cope with an intruder who'd likely be armed. What means did I have at my disposal? Harsh language? Sure, that'd save the day!

    While the felon who robbed me at gunpoint was content simply to take the money and run, I realized later that it could have gone differently. There are a number who would shoot just to ensure their ability to flee the scene. Some would shoot just because they're vicious. Another segment of the criminal society would simply discharge their weapon because they're nervous or overly excited. It wouldn't matter much if their act was intentional or accidental, the bullet hole would be just as damaging.

    Like it or not, regardless of an individual's "programming", there are criminals amongst us. Odds are in favor of innocent folks becoming victims eventually. Hey, it happened to me, and it may well happen to you. The big difference is how you'll respond. Will you be the victim (as I was) or be prepared to defend yourself? A lifetime of programming about guns can change in that moment you're confronted with an armed assailant.

    I've heard tapes from 911 operators who listened while a homeowner was murdered by an intruder. I've heard the screams of a woman who was murdered in her own house. Cops were minutes away, but death comes in seconds. The police arrived in time to compile a report on the murder scene, but too late to prevent the actual murder. Maybe the caught the killer, maybe he hides in the shadows of our society. I don't know. Maybe this was a random murder, or maybe the guy has done this before. Maybe he's even been to prison only to be released to prey upon others. It happens all too frequently. I'm sure their report was written up all offical and evidence was gathered at the scene. But the problem here was that the woman murdered in her own home was unarmed and unable to defend her life.

    You can fix stupid. You can't fix dead!
    I know. I was pretty stupid about the right to keep and bear arms. That got fixed and I now carry my sidearm. A real harsh experience provided the education that fixed my dose of stupid. But dead can't be fixed. I'm living proof that you can recover from stupid. I've yet to hear of anybody offering living proof that they fixed dead.

    I suspect that criminals actually do a service to gun rights advocates. As the number of crimes against society rise, more law abiding citizens realize their own defense is their own responsibility. Perhaps their moment of illumination will come at the hands of a felon holding a pistol in their face. Perhaps it will come on the heels of a home invasion when they realize how defenseless they are. I don't have the answers, but suspect many who now carry were victims of crime at some point in their life. Or perhaps a member of their family, or friends or folks with whom they work.

    Regardless of any other speculation, more folks are buying more guns now than ever before. Americans, regardless of political stripe, religious beliefs, philosophical perspective, ideological stance or identifyable socio-economic group: Americans are arming themselves. Every day in gun shops all across the nation, law abiding citizens are walking in to buy their first weapon. New gun owners are being made every single day because they see what being defenseless really means. They are making the choice to protect their own safety. Few of them wait until they've reached 61 years of age to take up that responsibility. Many of them don't wait until they've been victimized to reach that decision to bear arms. And every day, all across America, citizens are making life much more complicated for the thug on the street.

    As for trying to change anybody else's mind about this issue, I simply state my position. I carry because it is my right and responsibility to ensure my own safety. Their own perspective will likely take care of itself when they've been victimized as I was. I believe the anti crowd is wrong. I just hope they don't discover belatedly that they're dead wrong! The only time you can't fix stupid is when you're already dead!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-31-2011 at 01:11 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    You can lead people to logic, but you can't make them think. It"s best; for all, to just walk away. After all this time, with facts on our side, they have to find out the hard way.
    Sorry, but I disagree, not with respect to the antis who keep up their blather, but rather, with respect to the intelligent but uninformed or undecided readers of this and other forums. For every blather, there needs to be an intelligently-stated counter response comprised of both knowledge and logic.

    Don't forget, for every forum user there are half a dozen lurkers (readers). The current ratio is 4.59 lurkers for ever 1 user.
    Last edited by since9; 06-07-2011 at 01:18 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    [QUOTE][ I'm quite aware that every time I'm in public there are probably some people who notice that I'm carrying, see that I'm not acting unusual for the situation, & somewhere in their brain they put a tick under the "gun does not equal criminal" column.

    That's educating the public just as much as handing out fliers or giving a seminar./QUOTE]

    I OC daily. Every encounter is an opportunity to teach those with open minds. Most do not notice my weapon, but many do.

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