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Court rules: No Right to Resist Illegal Entry by Police

Citizen

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Y'all understand how this came to pass, right?

Over the last (100?) years the courts have been chiseling away at 4A rights regarding the home. They've created so many warrant exceptions (to be judged in a suppression hearing) that the courts then figure there is no purpose to allowing resistance.

Of course, each of the warrant exceptions sounds oh-so reasonable on the surface, when weighed alone. But, here we are.

Be very careful which government explanations you agree with. Terry sounds oh-so reasonable on the surface. Look where it has led.
 

riverrat10k

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Karl Denninger at Market Ticker wrote a nice article....

"Lacking probable cause to believe a crime had been or was about to be committed the officers had no right to enter upon this man's private property. That should have been the beginning and end of it and in fact law stretching back to 1200 AD, wildly pre-dating the foundation of this nation, has repeatedly recognized that it is."

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=186124
 

Beretta92FSLady

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OK, but "articulable", "reasonable" and "suspicion" have nothing to do with the standard needed for entry into a home.


So, you are stating that LEO's do not have to be able to articulate why they made entry into the house, and that the explanation for the entry not be reasonable?

There is no general 'standard' for the LEO to enter the house, they can enter the house anytime, anyplace, at their discretion. Now, whether it is a Constitutional act comes down to the LEO being able to articulate that what they have determined to be probable cause was a reasonable determination. Regardless, the LEO is not committing a crime that is punishable, buy anything but maybe a civil suit.

All of those terms play a role in the issue of entering a home without a warrant.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Karl Denninger at Market Ticker wrote a nice article....

"Lacking probable cause to believe a crime had been or was about to be committed the officers had no right to enter upon this man's private property. That should have been the beginning and end of it and in fact law stretching back to 1200 AD, wildly pre-dating the foundation of this nation, has repeatedly recognized that it is."

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=186124

What we have here in this article is the system preserving itself. The state, and State nearly every time preserves itself at the expense of the individual.

The court ruling is disturbing. I am not questioning its realness, but the ruling, and reasoning is freaking scary. Basically, they are asserting the LEO are the absolute authority, and above the law. But I have stated this before - not because I believe they should be, but rather, because, they are!
 

Butch00

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Alaska
As long as you support a Corporation you will get rulings like that.
I post my property and do not allow Law Enforcement on my property,
without written permission from Me.
In fact I have all new troopers in my town served with recorded documents,
that explain who I am, my status (a Sovereign), and the Law I am subject to.
I know they are agents of a private Corporation, and I am not subject to their
Admiralty/Maritime/Military Jurisdiction.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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As long as you support a Corporation you will get rulings like that.
I post my property and do not allow Law Enforcement on my property,
without written permission from Me.
In fact I have all new troopers in my town served with recorded documents,
that explain who I am, my status (a Sovereign), and the Law I am subject to.
I know they are agents of a private Corporation, and I am not subject to their
Admiralty/Maritime/Military Jurisdiction.

You have that 'right', but Property Rights are merely 'property rights'. Your 'property' is not Sovereign, you (life, person) are not Sovereign, whether you 'believe' it is Constitutional, or a Natural Right. Your 'property's' real owner is the Federal Government of the United States, and your 'life', as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution is also negotiable.

You can "not allow" Law Enforcement on your 'property' by posting, letter, whatever, but it is not legally enforceable - unless a law, or Law provides you a lawful reason to enforce 'it'.

I try to withhold personal attacks against people, or groups who have any particular view of how the Constitution is meant to function, or what Natural Rights are. But seriously, people are living in a fantasy if they think there is something inherent in your birth that gives you a Natural Right to a 'thing', or the exercise of a 'thing'.

Take for instance 'life'. Do you have a Natural Right to life? No. You have a Natural Right to defend your life, but not a Natural Right that stops a person or Government entity from taking your 'life' from you.
 

Butch00

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You have that 'right', but Property Rights are merely 'property rights'. Your 'property' is not Sovereign, you (life, person) are not Sovereign, whether you 'believe' it is Constitutional, or a Natural Right. Your 'property's' real owner is the Federal Government of the United States, and your 'life', as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution is also negotiable.

You can "not allow" Law Enforcement on your 'property' by posting, letter, whatever, but it is not legally enforceable - unless a law, or Law provides you a lawful reason to enforce 'it'.

I try to withhold personal attacks against people, or groups who have any particular view of how the Constitution is meant to function, or what Natural Rights are. But seriously, people are living in a fantasy if they think there is something inherent in your birth that gives you a Natural Right to a 'thing', or the exercise of a 'thing'.

Sounds to me like you had a very good government education.....And you have the right to believe anything you want.
But I a Sovereign of America.....Has Natural Rights, and Constitutional Rights....And can keep Law Enforcement off my Property.
When I became aware of the Corporation aspect of Government it really opened my eyes to the Fraud being perpetrated against the people.....What authority does an agent of a corporation have over you.....None.

The UNITED STATES incorporated in 1871 and became the Municipal Corporation of Washington D.C..

The Federal Reserve 1913 ......Federal Reserve Notes not Money.....Commercial Paper = Notes.

H.J.R. - 192 .....1933 Taken off Gold Standard.....

Erie Railroad v Thompkins ....1937/38 ......No Federal Common Law.

Around 1964 all States adopt the Uniform Commercial Code which is uniform with the Federal U.C.C. and
all states change flags in State Court and Office Buildings.

27 C.F.R. sec. 72.11 All crimes in the United States are Commercial.

28 U.S.C. sec. 3002 (15) a, b, c.
 

marshaul

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I am not trying to be argumentative here. The LEO(s) are not escalating violence, but rather, creating a circumstance where violence can occur. The act of entering your home may be unConstitutional, but illegal, not necessarily. LEO's, for the most part, and short of some miracle, are above the Law. LEO's are governed by the Constitution, but when they do not fulfill their Duty to enforce the Law along constitutional lines, they are nearly never held criminally liable.

There is a difference between 'unConstitutional', and 'illegal'. Unconstitutional means that a Law is found to not Constitutional, but is assumed, and treated as Constitutional until found otherwise by SCOTUS - there is no illegality in that. Illegal means that a Law is being broken.

Um...

The Constitution says right in it that it is the "supreme law of the land."

Your farcical little word game here serves no purpose other than as apologia for the systemic corruption and criminal actions of police.

But I've noticed you like to do that. Fortunately, we won't let you. :)
 

marshaul

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So, you are stating that LEO's do not have to be able to articulate why they made entry into the house, and that the explanation for the entry not be reasonable?
Insofar as one must be "reasonable" and "articulate" in explaining their "suspicion" which developed into probable cause, RS is an implied component of PC. But your post was (intentionally, I think) worded in such a way so as to confuse PC and RAS, to make the seem equivalent. All in line with your apologetical attempt to legalize and normalize criminal transgressions of police. No reason to mention "RAS" unless you wish to insinuate the idea that RAS is sufficient for a home invasion.

Go ahead, read what cops themselves have to say about it.

There is no general 'standard' for the LEO to enter the house, they can enter the house anytime, anyplace, at their discretion. Now, whether it is a Constitutional act comes down to the LEO being able to articulate that what they have determined to be probable cause was a reasonable determination. Regardless, the LEO is not committing a crime that is punishable, buy anything but maybe a civil suit.
I see what you are doing, and it's disgusting. You are intentionally conflating the letter of the law with the extreme and illegal latitude police are frequently given by corrupt courts. This is a form of apologia for this criminal behavior.

You pretend to be alarmed by these excesses, but you then turn around and behave as those the usurpation of the Constitution's supreme legal authority by radical and corrupt judges is itself legal.

It may be de facto how thing work in most of the US, it is certainly NOT what the law requires. The laws themselves have never been changed. Simply ignored.

Refusal to enforce a law is not the same as it magically having disappeared.


But I have stated this before - not because I believe they should be, but rather, because, they are!
You state it, and then argue the point on its own merits. As I've said, you *say* this alarms you, but you argue as though the facts are as acceptable as the sky being blue.

Generally, when one talks about a state of affairs they admit but find abhorrent, lots of qualifying language is used. One does that to both to prevent misinterpretation of his own position and to prevent normalization of unqualified discussion of the de facto state of affairs.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Sounds to me like you had a very good government education.....And you have the right to believe anything you want.
But I a Sovereign of America.....Has Natural Rights, and Constitutional Rights....And can keep Law Enforcement off my Property.
When I became aware of the Corporation aspect of Government it really opened my eyes to the Fraud being perpetrated against the people.....What authority does an agent of a corporation have over you.....None.


'They' are given the Power to act as the Authority. Who are 'they' given the Power by? The 'Law', military, law enforcement, financial Might of the United States Federal Government.

You can pontificate about your sovereign-ness, your Natural Rights, your Constitutional 'rights' all you like, but at the end of the day, the Government will retain its Authority by any means necessary, typically, with impunity.

The UNITED STATES incorporated in 1871 and became the Municipal Corporation of Washington D.C..

The Federal Reserve 1913 ......Federal Reserve Notes not Money.....Commercial Paper = Notes.

H.J.R. - 192 .....1933 Taken off Gold Standard.....

Erie Railroad v Thompkins ....1937/38 ......No Federal Common Law.

Around 1964 all States adopt the Uniform Commercial Code which is uniform with the Federal U.C.C. and
all states change flags in State Court and Office Buildings.

27 C.F.R. sec. 72.11 All crimes in the United States are Commercial.

28 U.S.C. sec. 3002 (15) a, b, c.

One thing we might possibly agree on is that we do not have enough gold in the world to back the dollars we have in circulation. The dollar bill has a manufactured 'value' that is a symbol of the 'backing' of the United States of America, but there is no 'value' in the U.S. dollar outside of that. basically, the dollar is Monopoly money, fake, etc.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Um...

The Constitution says right in it that it is the "supreme law of the land."


No, the Constitution states that it is the "...supreme Law of the Land...". Meaning, as the Constitution is written, has meaning, with each word present in the Constitution.


Your farcical little word game here serves no purpose other than as apologia for the systemic corruption and criminal actions of police.
You must have meant for this line to be for someone else. I have never stated that I agreed with the construct. I have merely argued that all 'it' is is a construct.

Examining, and explaining why some 'thing' is, has nothing to do with apologizing. The best way to fight against what you might 'believe' to be unConstitutional it would be in your best interest to formulate an understanding of where the individual(s) are deriving their rationale for determining the Constitution as stating one 'thing' v. another 'thing'.

I think it's interesting that you would assert that the Constitution "means what it says," then deny that what the Constitution might "say" differs from your assertion of what the Constitution "says."



But I've noticed you like to do that. Fortunately, we won't let you. :)
I respond no different than you or any other person on this page. Just another a$$hole with an opinion.
 
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marshaul

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No, the Constitution states that it is the "...supreme Law of the Land...". Meaning, as the Constitution is written, has meaning, with each word present in the Constitution.
Whatever you said has even less meaning that that which you ascribe to the phrase in question.

But I think it's clear that "supreme law of the land" speaks for itself.

To the forum: lest this poster engage in her usual sophistry, I'm going to settle the matter, and demonstrate that the phrase in question is to be, and has been throughout our history, correctly interpretable through its direct meaning. See the California Constitution

"Supreme law of the land" means what it says. It is not a pretentious, post-modern self-referential statement of irrelevance, as the other poster would seem to imply with her grammatically functionless sentence.

You must have meant for this line to be for someone else. I have never stated that I agreed with the construct. I have merely argued that all 'it' is is a construct.

Examining, and explaining why some 'thing' is, has nothing to do with apologizing. The best way to fight against what you might 'believe' to be unConstitutional it would be in your best interest to formulate an understanding of where the individual(s) are deriving their rationale for determining the Constitution as stating one 'thing' v. another 'thing'.

I think it's interesting that you would assert that the Constitution "means what it says," then deny that what the Constitution might "say" differs from your assertion of what the Constitution "says."
Typical. You pick the easy parts. The rest of my post addresses your facile defense, even before you made it.


I respond no different than you or any other person on this page. Just another a$$hole with an opinion.
I'm glad you feel this way. Don't worry, regarding each other, we are for once in agreement.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Insofar as one must be "reasonable" and "articulate" in explaining their "suspicion" which developed into probable cause, RS is an implied component of PC. But your post was (intentionally, I think) worded in such a way so as to confuse PC and RAS, to make the seem equivalent. All in line with your apologetical attempt to legalize and normalize criminal transgressions of police. No reason to mention "RAS" unless you wish to insinuate the idea that RAS is sufficient for a home invasion.

Nope, I was not, and am not attempting to make them sound as if they are the same 'thing'.

RAS is not sufficient for a home invasion. RAS can be a step that leads to a home invasion.

Go ahead, read what cops themselves have to say about it.

LEO's don't know much about the law, or Law. They merely 'enforce the '(L,l)aw.

I see what you are doing, and it's disgusting. You are intentionally conflating the letter of the law with the extreme and illegal latitude police are frequently given by corrupt courts. This is a form of apologia for this criminal behavior.

No, I am merely doing what you had just did in this above quote which is state that LEO's have latitude that goes beyond what some individuals 'believe' should be the degree of latitude given. Whether the latitude is "extreme," or "illegal" is for the (C,c)ourts to decide. Whether or not the (C,c)ourts are "corrupt" is up to the People, but not directly.





You pretend to be alarmed by these excesses, but you then turn around and behave as those the usurpation of the Constitution's supreme legal authority by radical and corrupt judges is itself legal.

I am alarmed. No pretending here. Who is the "supreme legal authority" as you call it? The Constitution, you do realize, is an inanimate object. Individuals that make-up a Government entity applies, and enforces the Constitution. Whether judges or Justices are "radical," or "corrupt" is subjective.

It may be de facto how thing work in most of the US, it is certainly NOT what the law requires. The laws themselves have never been changed. Simply ignored.

So, the Law does not require, but does the Law exclude it?


Refusal to enforce a law is not the same as it magically having disappeared.

LOL, funny, DOMA? This particular Law has not disappeared, it is just not being fought by the Federal Government in Court.

You state it, and then argue the point on its own merits. As I've said, you *say* this alarms you, but you argue as though the facts are as acceptable as the sky being blue

They are not as "acceptable" but as valid as any other assertion.




Generally, when one talks about a state of affairs they admit but find abhorrent, lots of qualifying language is used. One does that to both to prevent misinterpretation of his own position and to prevent normalization of unqualified discussion of the de facto state of affairs.

You act as if "qualifying language' is a bad thing. Words have meaning, and if individuals wish to have a discussion about "the state of affairs" that we find ourselves in relation to the power of the Federal Government we must first establish what the issue is, why 'things' are the way they are, how 'things' have gotten to this point, and then discuss what we can do to get ourselves out of the situation if we determine that the situation we are in is not an acceptable way of Federal Governance, and the society we wish to be, and live in.

Please, don't treat Language as if it this symbolic construct that its components has one singular meaning. Personally, I believe that such accusations of "qualifying language" (implied as a bad 'thing') is nothing more than a product of the accuser being mentally lethargic, and/or lacking the aptitude, interest, or intellectual endurance of systematically formulating a consensus on the meaning of symbols in language, how the symbols will be applied, then establishing what issue(s) should be examined, then come to some sort of conclusion about the totality of the argument from both sides, then hopefully form a consensus on what should be done, then do it!
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Whatever you said has even less meaning that that which you ascribe to the phrase in question.

But I think it's clear that "supreme law of the land" speaks for itself.

Obviously it does. That's why you have individuals arguing for more "state right," and breaking free' from the Federal Governments 'overbearing control'.

To the forum: lest this poster engage in her usual sophistry, I'm going to settle the matter, and demonstrate that the phrase in question is to be, and has been throughout our history, correctly interpretable through its direct meaning. See the California Constitution
Go on...

"Supreme law of the land" means what it says. It is not a pretentious, post-modern self-referential statement of irrelevance, as the other poster would seem to imply with her grammatically functionless sentence.
That's your so-called 'explanation' by asserting that ""Supreme law of the land" means what it says"? No person that I have read(e) has stated that the Constitution, or the line you provided is irrelevant. What I do question is the assertion that "it means what it says." Ok, what does it say, and who attributes the Constitution its meaning? Individuals, possibly? Hmm, let's see *looks around*, it appears individuals don't agree on the 'meaning' of the language within the Constitution. So much for your 'the Constitution means some 'thing' (specific)" arguement.

"gramatically functionless sentence," I call that a diversion tactic. Unable to refute my assertion that each 'word', and 'letter' means some 'thing', but not absolutely, directly some 'thing', unless context is formed. and established, nope, instead it leads to your attacking my 'grammar'.



Typical. You pick the easy parts. The rest of my post addresses your facile defense, even before you made it.
Don't sit there and act as if I am ignoring any parts of your posts. You, me, and others who are reading our posts can see that I am responding to all of your posts.


I'm glad you feel this way. Don't worry, regarding each other, we are for once in agreement.
Thank goodness.
 
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marshaul

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You act as if "qualifying language' is a bad thing.

Quite the opposite. In fact, I'd expect more of it in discussion of these issues from someone who claims to be "alarmed".

What I find alarming is the lack of it in discussion with certain individuals. It does no good to alternate viewpoints to state the (incorrect) dominant view as unqualified fact, which is what you routinely do. It's disturbing.

But then, I've said this already.

That's your so-called 'explanation' by asserting that ""Supreme law of the land" means what it says"? No person that I have read(e) has stated that the Constitution, or the line you provided is irrelevant. What I do question is the assertion that "it means what it says." Ok, what does it say, and who attributes the Constitution its meaning? Individuals, possibly? Hmm, let's see *looks around*, it appears individuals don't agree on the 'meaning' of the language within the Constitution. So much for your 'the Constitution means some 'thing' (specific)" arguement.

"gramatically functionless sentence," I call that a diversion tactic. Unable to refute my assertion that each 'word', and 'letter' means some 'thing', but not absolutely, directly some 'thing', unless context is formed. and established, nope, instead it leads to your attacking my 'grammar'.

The context was your declaration that something which is unconstitutional but still law is also "legal".

I dispute this.

The Constitution declares itself to be, and is, the "supreme law of the land". The Constitution contains the Bill of Rights, which is also therefore the "supreme law of the land". If something is unconstitutional, it violates the constitution, which is a law. If something violates the Constitution it is therefore a violation of a law; therefore that something is illegal. Therefore, an unconstitutional law is, by definition, itself illegal.

This all gets back to my issue with your use of language, which I assert perniciously furthers the normalization and therefore acceptance of this unacceptable state of affairs, by speaking of the de facto as though it is the de jure.

Your sentence, by the way, was syntactically indecipherable. Assuming I understood what you were trying to say (which I'm not sure I did), it was a non sequitur in that it hardly rebutted my argument.
 
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Butch00

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Marbury V Madison 1803 The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land,
any law that goes against it is void from inception.
 

Cavalryman

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One of the things that disturbs me about this ruling is that in the case they were hearing, they easily could have ruled that "probable cause" existed or even that the officers had to enter to insure a person's safety (and the entry was therefore legal) and just stopped there. The fact that they felt compelled to expand the ruling to state that a person doesn't have a right to resist any entry even if illegal implies that they were waiting for an excuse to make a new law from the bench. The case didn't warrant a ruling this broad.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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The context was your declaration that something which is unconstitutional but still law is also "legal".


It is legal until found otherwise.


I dispute this.

Naturally.


The Constitution declares itself to be, and is, the "supreme law of the land". The Constitution contains the Bill of Rights, which is also therefore the "supreme law of the land". If something is unconstitutional, it violates the constitution, which is a law. If something violates the Constitution it is therefore a violation of a law; therefore that something is illegal. Therefore, an unconstitutional law is, by definition, itself illegal.

No, the Founding Fathers declared the Constitution to be the "supreme Law of the Land." Yes, the Bill of Rights is enumerated in the Constitution, but not all of the Bill of Rights are are Incorporated in Constitution to the states.

The Constitution being declared as the "supreme Law of the Land' is does not make the Bill of Rights "therefore" the "supreme Law of the Land."

The Constitution is Law. If a law, or Law is Found to be unConstitutional then the law, or Law has been found to be in violation of the Constitution.

Yes, a law, or Law that is found to be unConstitutional is a violation of the Constitution, and therefore illegal. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the assertion that some law, or Law is unConstitutional, when the law, or Law has not been found unConstitutional.

I think that your are missing my point here. But I am not going to simplify my explanation for the sake of you understanding what I am stating. Examine what I have stated.


This all gets back to my issue with your use of language, which I assert perniciously furthers the normalization and therefore acceptance of this unacceptable state of affairs, by speaking of the de facto as though it is the de jure.

This is coming from an individual who refers to the "supreme Law of the Land," as the 'supreme law of the land." And who refers generally to "law" when a distinction must be made between state, and Federal Government. State 'law', Federal 'Law'. In discussions like the ones which we are engaged in, you must make sure you are making a distinction between one type of law, and another type of Law. You must make a distinction between the constitution (state), and the Constitution (Federal).

Your sentence, by the way, was syntactically indecipherable. Assuming I understood what you were trying to say (which I'm not sure I did), it was a non sequitur in that it hardly rebutted my argument.

I have typed many sentences. I am not sure which sentence you are referring to.

I will guess that the sentence you are referring to is your asserting that what I typed was "grammatically functionless," and I stated that 'letters', and 'words' have meaning.

I was responding to you typing "Supreme law of the land." All I was stating is that you were asserting that "Supreme law of the land" means some 'thing', and I stated in response that first you must post the correct wording "supreme Law of the Land." If you do not recognize that not only the Constitution means what it has written in it, but that each letter, and word symbolizes a 'thing', then you are letting the text of the Constitution either escape your consideration, or you are missing the Constitution's point in the words, and how they are strategically spelled, and placed.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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One of the things that disturbs me about this ruling is that in the case they were hearing, they easily could have ruled that "probable cause" existed or even that the officers had to enter to insure a person's safety (and the entry was therefore legal) and just stopped there. The fact that they felt compelled to expand the ruling to state that a person doesn't have a right to resist any entry even if illegal implies that they were waiting for an excuse to make a new law from the bench. The case didn't warrant a ruling this broad.

Obviously the majority did not agree with you. It is apparent that the judges felt that the case 'warranted' a broad ruling such as this. Hopefully this will make it to the Supreme Court of the United States.
 
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