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Thread: OC in state parks legal?

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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    OC in state parks legal?

    is OC in state parks legal?

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    is OC in state parks legal?
    Yes, with some exceptions (Of Course). You cannot carry in buildings where employees carry out their duties. Out door restrooms are OK!
    Some parks are within the City limits of municipalities that prohibit OC - Example Babler State part is within the City limits of Wildwood, therefore you cannot OC there. The Park people don't have a problem with it, trust me, the Wildwood police do! If you have written permission from the park you could OC there, I tried to get it ( I walk in the park several times a week in the evening) , never going to happen.

    There are a lot of State Parks, you have to check the local laws the park is in to get the lattest information.

    Oh, nice shoot'n with you a few weeks ago, your good!
    Last edited by mspgunner; 05-14-2011 at 08:41 AM.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Yes, with some exceptions (Of Course). You cannot carry in buildings where employees carry out their duties. Out door restrooms are OK!
    Some parks are within the City limits of municipalities that prohibit OC - Example Babbler State part is within the City limits of Wildwood, therefore you cannot OC there. The Park people don't have a problem with it, trust me, the Wildwood police do! If you have written permission from the park you could OC there, I tried to get it ( I walk in the park several times a week in the evening) , never going to happen.

    There are a lot of State Parks, you have to check the local laws the park is in to get the latest information.

    Oh, nice shoot'n with you a few weeks ago, your good!
    Well as we have established before in regards to this topic. The park would have to be considered private property for there to be a necessity to get written permission.

    What I believe is a more accurate answer would be is that Wildwood PD has threatened to mis use the law to write a misdemeanor charge for carrying a firearm onto private property without consent if you were to carry a firearm in an open manner in Babbler State park.

    Would they write the ticket? Maybe. Would it be a legal ticket? Not even close. Personally I believe they are bluffing. If they are not I hope they are punished throughly for a miss use of power and authority as it obviously would be just that.

    Doc

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    Well as we have established before in regards to this topic. The park would have to be considered private property for there to be a necessity to get written permission.

    What I believe is a more accurate answer would be is that Wildwood PD has threatened to mis use the law to write a misdemeanor charge for carrying a firearm onto private property without consent if you were to carry a firearm in an open manner in Babbler State park.

    Would they write the ticket? Maybe. Would it be a legal ticket? Not even close. Personally I believe they are bluffing. If they are not I hope they are punished throughly for a miss use of power and authority as it obviously would be just that.

    Doc
    If I had the time and money and nothing else to do it wouild be interesting to challange it. NOT THE CASE! I've read the local BS, we've talked about it, that about puts and end to it. The park would not answer my letter when I asked for "written permission" to OC in Babler. No surprise there, I even porvided them with State Park and Wildwood documentation....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    I've OCed at Babler almost a dozen times in the last year. Never heard a word from anyone.

    Was also walking my dog off a leash.

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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    If I had the time and money and nothing else to do it wouild be interesting to challange it. NOT THE CASE! I've read the local BS, we've talked about it, that about puts and end to it. The park would not answer my letter when I asked for "written permission" to OC in Babler. No surprise there, I even porvided them with State Park and Wildwood documentation....
    Do you know any compotent attorney's that are willing to take this case because I would be willing to be the actor if so.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSTL View Post
    I've OCed at Babler almost a dozen times in the last year. Never heard a word from anyone.

    Was also walking my dog off a leash.
    That's OK, but ever encounter a LEO or Park official? You can kil a deer inthe park, but if no one sees you....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Do you know any compotent attorney's that are willing to take this case because I would be willing to be the actor if so.
    I'd imagine your talking "free". If not you certainly can shop for one before you do it and get the facts on what it would cost. I'll kick in $20.00 after the arrest for the lawyer, I'm sure you could find a lot of folks here and other forums to do the same if you want totake the fall and go the route.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    That's OK, but ever encounter a LEO or Park official? You can kill a deer inthe park, but if no one sees you....
    Here are some emails I traded:
    From the Wildwood Police:
    This question has come up before. It is part of our mission to protect all Constitutional rights, including the right to bear arms. And, exceptions for the concealed carry provisions of Missouri statutes are built into the Wildwood ordinance dealing with firearms. However, Wildwood ordinance does not allow exposed carry except on property owned by the person carrying the firearm or, if on the property of someone else, with written permission from the property owner. In other words, if someone were wanting to carry a firearm exposed at Dierbergs, Subway or the Wildwood City Council, written permission would have to be obtained from the property owner (or someone with authority to give the permission). The same ordinance applies to firearms for hunting or self-defence, when referring to exposed carry. State statute authorizes the City of Wildwood to enact legislation concerning exposed firearms. Obviously, state law governs concealed carry.

    I have not provided the law citations, but would be happy to provide that information if you want the individual statutes and ordinances. Please let me know if you need more information or if you have additional questions.

    Brad Wood
    Neighborhood Policing Officer
    Wildwood Precinct
    St. Louis County Police Department
    636-458-9194
    -----------------
    From the Missouri State parks:
    I received your e-mail concerning concealed and open carry of firearms in Missouri State Parks. Thank you for your interest in Missouri State Parks and your desire to comply with park rules, regulations and state statutes.

    Concealed carry is permitted in Missouri State Parks with the possession of a valid concealed carry permit. Open carry is also legal in Missouri State Parks; however, it is a violation of state law to carry a weapon, either concealed or open carry, into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal or state government (i.e., park office, visitor center, etc.).

    Again, thank you for your interest in Missouri State Parks. Please let me know if you have additional questions, or if I can be of further service.

    Sincerely,

    John P. Hoover, Major
    Division of State Parks
    Park Ranger Program
    573-751-5358
    john.hoover@dnr.mo.gov
    ---------------------------------

    And again from the Wildwood Police:
    Mr. xxxxx

    I have found even though, through the email you provided from Major Hoover, the state does not regulate open carry within their parks. However, since the park falls within the city limits of Wildwood; Wildwood Ordinances do apply. Under Wildwood Ordinance, more specifically section 210.220, you may carry openly however; each individual wishing to do so, must first obtain written permission from the owner, lessee or person in charge of the premise. This document must be carried on their person at all times when on the property. It is also the discretion of the landowner to limit what type of firearm can be carried and must be identified in the letter. Ones failure to comply with this does constitute a violation and are subject to prosecution and seizure of their weapon.

    Obviously, this doesn’t not affect those of your group, who possesses the “concealed carry” endorsement, and keep the weapon concealed and follow the terms of the endorsement.
    Therefore, I would recommend you contact the parks superintendant and make arrangements with them to hold your gathering and obtain the written documentation.
    I hope this answers your question as to the legality of the open carry within the park. As far as openly carrying within the city limits, I believe PO Brad Wood has covered that portion through corresponding emails earlier this month.
    Please let me know if you should have any other questions or concerns.


    Sgt. Jim Molden
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    palm to face!

    Actually discussing PLANNING to violate the law on an open forum?

    Embarrassing!

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    palm to face!

    Actually discussing PLANNING to violate the law on an open forum?

    Embarrassing!
    NO NO! If you want to violate the law on purpose, get arrested and go through the process tell the LEOS where and when, get the lawyer up to speed and informed prior and have the bail money in place. Go through the motions, get out of jail. It's been done before to establish Missouri Tresspass law/ Crawford Co., MO. The thing went all the way to the US Big court!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    palm to face!

    Actually discussing PLANNING to violate the law on an open forum?

    Embarrassing!
    They are not planning to violate the law. They are planning to catch the Wildwood PD violating the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    NO NO! If you want to violate the law on purpose, get arrested and go through the process tell the LEOS where and when, get the lawyer up to speed and informed prior and have the bail money in place. Go through the motions, get out of jail. It's been done before to establish Missouri Tresspass law/ Crawford Co., MO. The thing went all the way to the US Big court!

    Being the "Rosa Parks" for OC over the debate of jurisdiction of Babler state park vs Wildwood ordinances may or may not result in a positive outcome.

    Neither the resolve nor the coin exist to even begin such an effort and even if the result was 100% in the favor of the citizens, the case law would be of no use to any location beyond a state park, would set rights back in a huge way as it would draw press and anti's from every corner and we would see a lot more Maplewood types of reactions across the land by the do gooders that want to "make sure that does not happen here" and would push us FARTHER from state preemption than we are now.

    You want to lose support for OC by the ones whom make the rules and those with the most influence on them? Then by all means, go for it. Hell they dumped the push huge after the Darrow event and that was just because they THOUGHT Darrow might have been trying to harass cops, planning it out in public and proving it was done on purpose, well that should just about seal the deal forever.

    I gotta take a break from this BS for a while.

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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    palm to face!

    Actually discussing PLANNING to violate the law on an open forum?

    Embarrassing!
    All unconstitutional laws are not laws at all. Face+Palm!LOL

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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    All unconstitutional laws are not laws at all. Face+Palm!LOL
    It's not even unlawful to OC in Wildwood. face+palm.....wow that really hurts no wonder LMTD is always so scatterbrained

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    It's not even unlawful to OC in Wildwood. face+palm.....wow that really hurts no wonder LMTD is always so scatterbrained
    There are a lot of descriptors folks have used to describe me in my past, scatterbrained is not one of them.

    OC in wildwood is indeed against the law without permission from the owner of the property, it is fairly well defined as much despite the original intent of the statute.

    Breaking the law is one issue, openly discussing intent to violate the law is another, there is a word for it, conspiracy. It ads an extra charge to it.

    Your desire to be the poster boy for OC in Wildwood is misguided at best and despite any theories you might have, if you toddled yourself out to your shed and found that barrel full of 100 dollar bills you’re going to need to get such a law declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS, by all means proceed. When a grand win comes in and Wildwood council does exactly the same thing Maplewood did, perhaps you can see if they will name it after you.

    My goal is for OC for the whole state and as long as the situation presents itself as only effecting a minor portion that still has the legal standing to revise and restrict, significant efforts lack good sense to this scatterbrained old man.

    I would suggest you stick with your efforts at simply OC'ing where it is legal instead of dreaming about fame from minor infractions that will likely have more of a negative impact on the movement as a whole, but do as you like.

  17. #17
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    State wide is the way to go!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Regular Member wow6599's Avatar
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    Remember this when dealing with the "law" -

    "Truth is Treason in the Empire of Lies"

    - Ron Paul
    “A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”

    - Sigmund Freud

  19. #19
    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    There are a lot of descriptors folks have used to describe me in my past, scatterbrained is not one of them.

    OC in wildwood is indeed against the law without permission from the owner of the property, it is fairly well defined as much despite the original intent of the statute.

    Breaking the law is one issue, openly discussing intent to violate the law is another, there is a word for it, conspiracy. It ads an extra charge to it.

    Your desire to be the poster boy for OC in Wildwood is misguided at best and despite any theories you might have, if you toddled yourself out to your shed and found that barrel full of 100 dollar bills you’re going to need to get such a law declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS, by all means proceed. When a grand win comes in and Wildwood council does exactly the same thing Maplewood did, perhaps you can see if they will name it after you.

    My goal is for OC for the whole state and as long as the situation presents itself as only effecting a minor portion that still has the legal standing to revise and restrict, significant efforts lack good sense to this scatterbrained old man.

    I would suggest you stick with your efforts at simply OC'ing where it is legal instead of dreaming about fame from minor infractions that will likely have more of a negative impact on the movement as a whole, but do as you like.
    On private property is the key word. I think scatterbrained is good seeing as I never did mention where I would be OCing. It would be on public property of course. In which case there is no legality prohibiting such action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    I think scatterbrained is good seeing as I never did mention where I would be OCing.
    I know you have significant issues with understanding things.

    It is going to be REAL hard for you to get arrested for OC'ing in Babbler state park by the Wildwood police and need an atty if you fail to OC.

    I know you think all cops are bad, but I REALLY think you are going to have a very hard time getting a WW cop to make up the charge of OC in violation of their old OC hunting law.

    They might however hold you for a court sanctioned evaluation for trying to get arrested for something you did not do or having the police called on you for no illegal activities.

    I am still going to suggest you refrain and discontinue your concerns with my scatterbrain activities, I will live through it.

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