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Thread: Lending a pistol

  1. #1
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    Lending a pistol

    Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are with lending a pistol to another adult (non felon) in the state?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    IANAL, as long as the person is over 18, go right ahead. If under 18, a legal guardian or parent has to supervise.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombay View Post
    Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are with lending a pistol to another adult (non felon) in the state?
    adult, non-felon, no mental problems, no domestic abuse.....

    If you trust the person with it.

    Will you get it back?

    You wouldn't be the first person to lend another person a firearm.

    no restrictions.
    Last edited by phred; 05-14-2011 at 04:32 PM.

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    Thanks.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    As long as the person fits the federal guidelines:
    Look here at the ATF FAQ page:
    "A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

    Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?
    Yes, a person who
    1. Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
    2. Is a fugitive from justice;
    3. Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
    4. Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
    [should say "involuntarily"]
    5. Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
    6. Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    7. Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
    8. Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
    9. Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
    About #4: has not been adjudicated mentally incompetent, involuntarily committed to a mental institution (by a court), or found not guilty of a crime by reason of mental disease or defect.

    Simply being treated for a disease isn't a bar.
    Having a Court judge that you're not mentally competent is a whole lot higher hurdle to clear, and it's public record (which health records are not).

    Depending on the age of the person:
    possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.
    Here's a PDF of 4473 so you can read the restrictions yourself. It includes explanation / guidelines / reasoning to help w/ the "are you this kind of person" questions.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombay View Post
    Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are with lending a pistol to another adult (non felon) in the state?
    "Lending" in the sense that they are going to borrow it for a period of time and return it at a later date is treated the same as selling it to them. You are transferring the firearm to them. All you need is to be reasonably sure that they are a WI resident with a WI ID and are not prohibited from owning firearm. If you ask them if they are a prohibited person and they say no, you are covered so long as you have no knowledge to the contrary. WI does not require any documentation for a private transfer.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 05-14-2011 at 07:02 PM.

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    wearing a stunning gold lame dress, MKEgal. In the blue corner, wearing beer-stained boxers, Interceptor Knight. (The Bell Rings)....

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    The only instance I could even imagine where I would lend a firearm to anyone is if we were surrounded and the bad guys were closing in. Otherwise, Not a Goram chance in hades...
    Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Han Solo

    http://buffaloholstercompany.blogspot.com/ Concealment holsters IWB, SOB, and belt slide. Open Carry too. New from Buffalo Holster, Women's holsters for concealment and or belt carry.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    Look here at the ATF FAQ page:
    "A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    "Lending" in the sense that they are going to borrow it for a period of time and return it at a later date is treated the same as selling it to them...
    All you need is to be reasonably sure that they are a WI resident with a WI ID and are not prohibited from owning a firearm.
    According to the ATF (link above) lending can be done to any non-prohibited person in any state.
    Selling can only be done to someone in-state. At least, until SAF gets their challenge through SCOTUS.
    Wonder if there's ever been a challenge, a ruling, to decide how long a "lend" can go on before it's de facto a sale or gift?

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    wearing a stunning gold lame dress, MKEgal.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    According to the ATF (link above) lending can be done to any non-prohibited person in any state.
    Selling can only be done to someone in-state. At least, until SAF gets their challenge through SCOTUS.
    Wonder if there's ever been a challenge, a ruling, to decide how long a "lend" can go on before it's de facto a sale or gift?
    Lending
    for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes
    , conservatively means while at the event such as a shooting range or on a hunt (for the duration of the hunt), not "lending" for an indefinite period which is transferring. Ask David Olofson how "lending" turned out for him... The ATF obviously had zero problems prosecuting for transferring even though it was a temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose.
    You may never "lend" across State lines. Even if you loan it out in your State, the person you lent it to may not cross State lines with it under any conditions.
    The reality in WI is that there is no paperwork required for private party transfers and you are not required to retain documentation. Also since there is no firearm registration, your handgun is not registered to you. The general statement that you may lend to any person who is not prohibited is obviously true and the duration would only come under scrutiny if the non-resident person you lent it to did something unlawful with it or if they were questioned for some reason regarding ownership at a traffic stop, etc and said that they got it from you.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 05-15-2011 at 08:11 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    Look here at the ATF FAQ page:
    "A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use..."
    I realize that using the ATF as a source might be just as bad as asking any other LEO for a legal opinion, but since the ATF are the ones that will prosecute, it's probably best to know what they think is acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    You may never "lend" across State lines. Even if you loan it out in your State, the person you lent it to may not cross State lines with it under any conditions.
    Citation, please? The ATF page doesn't say anything about not crossing state lines, either to do the lend, or once the borrower has it in her possession.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Citation, please? The ATF page doesn't say anything about not crossing state lines, either to do the lend, or once the borrower has it in her possession.
    You really need to go directly to the Statute/Code/Ordinance when you are looking for the truth. Going by a FAQ will lead you astray. It clearly states that it does not matter how it was obtained and it gives no exceptions. Here is the cite for your benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Not true. You can legally lend a firearm to a resident of another state.
    Only so long as they do not take it back across state lines to their resident state. Please read the following..


    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I--CRIMES

    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful--
    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
    into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a
    corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a
    place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by
    such person outside that State
    ..,
    .
    Here is the cite for "temporary use". Notice it first says that it is illegal to "give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ..who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in... the State in which the transferor resides" The burden would be on you to prove it was "temporary use" should there be an issue and it were not at a rifle range, hunting, etc...

    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I--CRIMES

    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful--
    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,
    sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
    (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
    a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
    business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
    this paragraph shall not apply to ... (B) the loan or rental of a
    firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
    purposes;
    .
    .
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 05-16-2011 at 01:53 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I--CRIMES

    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful--
    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,
    sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
    (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
    a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
    business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
    this paragraph shall not apply to ... (B) the loan or rental of a
    firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
    purposes;


    Eh?

  14. #14
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    Eh?
    What is it that you are trying to say?

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    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    The only instance I could even imagine where I would lend a firearm to anyone is if we were surrounded and the bad guys were closing in. Otherwise, Not a Goram chance in hades...
    Yep.

  16. #16
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    1 Point - AaronS


    And nothing personal but if the bad guys are closing in and you are unarmed... well I hope you can serpentine.


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    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    I dont give a rats a$$ how the law reads.

    NO WAY in H3LL I will loan out a gun.... EVER !!!

    Especially after the Olofson case.

    LR Yote
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


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  18. #18
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer
    The only instance I could even imagine where I would lend a firearm to anyone is if we were surrounded and the bad guys were closing in. Otherwise, Not a Goram chance in hades...
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Yote 312
    NO WAY in H3LL I will loan out a gun.... EVER !!!
    Especially after the Olofson case.
    Just looked up info on the Olofson case. He wasn't in trouble for loaning the gun, he was in trouble because BATFE claimed that the malfunction made it a machine gun, & it wasn't registered, so he was in trouble for having an unregistered machine gun AND for transferring it.
    Ah... that definition of 'transfer'. Looked more like a loan to me. Didn't pay for the rifle, didn't get it as a gift. Seems Olofson wanted/expected it back.

    As for loaning a gun, I can think of people I'd trust not to screw up.
    And not in a last-ditch scenario, either. I'm thinking like a friend is being stalked & has to ride out a waiting period or something like that.
    (Though is that a 'sporting purpose'? If we're in the same state, does that law apply?)
    If it were purely for 'sport' - target shooting or hunting - absolutely no problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Just looked up info on the Olofson case. He wasn't in trouble for loaning the gun, he was in trouble because BATFE claimed that the malfunction made it a machine gun, & it wasn't registered, so he was in trouble for having an unregistered machine gun AND for transferring it.
    Ah... that definition of 'transfer'. Looked more like a loan to me. Didn't pay for the rifle, didn't get it as a gift. Seems Olofson wanted/expected it back.
    Olofson was not "in trouble" for and was not charged/prosecuted with "having" anything. He was successfully prosecuted for "transferring". He was not at the range and loaned it to someone at the range, the ATF's star witness took it home.

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