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Thread: I work in an off limits zone for OC. Yesterday a man entered OC. Help! Questions!

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    I work in an off limits zone for OC. Yesterday a man entered OC. Help! Questions!

    My supervisor thought it was fine. He only knew that Michigan was OC but none of the specifics. The man was there briefly with his family and caused no reason for alarm. I decided to educate myself as much as I could on the topic anyway.

    From what I learned today I am to understand that what this man did was illegal due to the fact that we are an establishment that has a liquor licence. If I am correct then he did so either knowing it was or not knowing it was illegal. Either way I find this man in the wrong.

    I would like to present to my manager the information I have found as well as a suggested protocol for the future should such an event occur again.

    As an establishment where OC is prohibited, what is the best course of action to take when confronted with this situation?

    Edit: Thanks for the responses! I have responded below. Please read my second question on the second page of the thread.
    Last edited by dva2; 05-17-2011 at 01:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,

    what you have,, is a non question.
    learn michigan law.
    OC with a CPL is AOK!
    CC is not AOK, but how would you know?
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    do your self a favor and read this:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Guide-Project

    and this:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...en-Carry-in-MI

    especially the 4th MSP update
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    My supervisor thought it was fine. He only knew that Michigan was OC but none of the specifics. The man was there briefly with his family and caused no reason for alarm. I decided to educate myself as much as I could on the topic anyway.

    From what I learned today I am to understand that what this man did was illegal due to the fact that we are an establishment that has a liquor licence. If I am correct then he did so either knowing it was or not knowing it was illegal. Either way I find this man in the wrong.

    I would like to present to my manager the information I have found as well as a suggested protocol for the future should such an event occur again.

    As an establishment where OC is prohibited
    , what is the best course of action to take when confronted with this situation?
    OC in a place with a liquor license is not prohibited by law (is legal) for a person who has a CC license. OC with a CC license is even legal in a bar.

    Thus the best course of action to take when confronted with the situation of a man OC'ing with his family who are causing no problems would seem to be to treat them the same as anyone else.

    It is certainly up to you as to what protocol you wish to suggest to your manager but please allow me to sincerely and with good intentions suggest to you that whatever protocol you suggest be firmly based in Michigan firearm law... all of the firearm laws. And those laws can be searched for and found here:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...MCLBasicSearch
    Last edited by Bikenut; 05-15-2011 at 08:31 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    ^^I like your .sig and agree, especially with the last part.

    Good replies to the OP, as well.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    From what I learned today I am to understand that what this man did was illegal due to the fact that we are an establishment that has a liquor licence. If I am correct then he did so either knowing it was or not knowing it was illegal. Either way I find this man in the wrong.

    I would like to present to my manager the information I have found as well as a suggested protocol for the future should such an event occur again.
    The man OCing was definitely NOT doing anything illegal/wrong. People should be judged by their conduct.

    What is your protocol for customers doing nothing wrong/illegal? Suggest you follow that and thank them for their business.

    Here is a short interactive primer on OC:
    http://www.opencarry.org/maps.html
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    My supervisor thought it was fine.
    This is the key thing in my opinion, after you consider that the guy was lawfully carrying. If an owner/manager is anti gun, most folks here will politely go elsewhere and respect private property rights, while also encouraging everyone they know to also go elsewhere, but not too much of an issue will be made of it otherwise.

    But as long as management is okay with carrying, the only grounds for kicking the carrier out should be acting in an offensive manner, which of course includes drinking which WOULD be against the law. I've never, ever heard of an OCer drinking while carrying, since OCers have a very strong tendency to be among the most law abiding and courteous people anywhere, so it's not something you're likely to encounter, but if you're looking to establish protocols, that is what I'd suggest.
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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    I decided to educate myself as much as I could on the topic anyway.

    From what I learned today I am to understand that what this man did was illegal due to the fact that we are an establishment that has a liquor licence. If I am correct then he did so either knowing it was or not knowing it was illegal. Either way I find this man in the wrong.
    We're glad you came here to educate yourself.
    Please respond educate us where you got your information?
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    I work in an off limits zone for OC.
    Unless you work in a court, casino, secure area of a jail, or federal property, you don't work in an "off limits zone" for OC, in Michigan.

    This is because a Concealed Pistols License (CPL) allows OC everywhere except those places, and MANY people who OC have a CPL.

    The only place in the above list that would probably have the liquor license you say your workplace does is a casino. So, the question is, do you work in a casino?

    It is good that you come here to confirm your information, before giving your manager wrong suggestions.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post

    with an establishment where alcohol is sold for on premises consumption, what is the best course of action to take when confronted with an OC situation?

    All i could think of for actions to take would be to not sell that particular person any alcohol which would be consumed on premises,other then that treat them as you would any other normal patron
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    I have a CPL, and I dont conceal. I respect others right to do so, but I consider it to be bad practice.

    To answer your question though, what should you do about it, welcome him with open arms, what you have here, is a free portable crime free zone. You should simply respect the persons rights, as others have died to retain those rights. If it makes you uncomfortable, then exercise your own rights by carrying your own gun.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    All i could think of for actions to take would be to not sell that particular person any alcohol which would be consumed on premises,other then that treat them as you would any other normal patron
    Actually, as long as he doesn't go over .02 BAC he'd still be legal. or rather, .019999999.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Actually, as long as he doesn't go over .02 BAC he'd still be legal. or rather, .019999999.
    I believe the law is .02 when CC and .08 when OC. I don't personally think it is wise to consume any alcohol when armed but it is not illegal.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    I believe the law is .02 when CC and .08 when OC. I don't personally think it is wise to consume any alcohol when armed but it is not illegal.
    I tend to agree, about not drinking while armed, but in general, I doubt one beer would pose a problem for most people.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dva2 View Post
    My supervisor thought it was fine.
    Also, even a person that doesn't have a CPL can OC in an establishment that serves alcohol with the owner's or manager's permission.

    750.234d

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    Bronson
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Unless you work in a court, casino, secure area of a jail, or federal property, you don't work in an "off limits zone" for OC, in Michigan.

    This is because a Concealed Pistols License (CPL) allows OC everywhere except those places, and MANY people who OC have a CPL.

    The only place in the above list that would probably have the liquor license you say your workplace does is a casino. So, the question is, do you work in a casino?

    It is good that you come here to confirm your information, before giving your manager wrong suggestions.

    small correction: One may not posses a pistol at a casino regulated by the Michigan Gaming Control and Revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226. This act ONLY regulates the casinos in Detroit... The State of Michigan does not have general regulatory authority over Indian casinos, although the State does have oversight authority over compliance with the State-Tribal Compact provisions. They are regulated by the National Indian Gaming Commission and the government of the appropriate tribal community.



    Citation:

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:....

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    This eslablishment wouldn't be in the Fenton area would it?

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    I think the OP has hit and run.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    who knows... the OP hasn't been back. at least they haven't posted again. i hope they're at least reading all the helpful info we're providing.
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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Though to be fair, even if the OP isn't, the next person to stumble across this topic will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I think the OP has hit and run.
    Posted: Yesterday, 4:22 AM
    Last activity: Yesterday, 4:24 AM

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Posted: Yesterday, 4:22 AM
    Last activity: Yesterday, 4:24 AM
    But the poster doesn't need to sign in to read the thread...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    But the poster doesn't need to sign in to read the thread...
    True, but it would be polite to say thank you for the information.
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    Thank You!

    All the information provided was very insightful and educational. You guys know your stuff and that's why I posted here. As I said that was the conclusions I made upon my own research. I now know much more about this subject matter.

    I read about the CPL briefly but it was a little misleading to me because of the fact being it stands for "concealed".

    This is all very interesting to me and has me strongly considering exercising these rights for myself in the future.

    Thank you all.

    Edit: Sorry on the delay. I was working. I was not aware how active this forum community was.
    Last edited by dva2; 05-17-2011 at 12:18 AM.

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    You are always welcome here. Open carry is huge, and Michigan is one of the most active areas anywhere.

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