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Thread: Unloaded Open Carry Verification?

  1. #1
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Unloaded Open Carry Verification?

    I'm visiting Utah for a couple weeks camping this summer and understand that without a concealed handgun permit if you OC it has to be unloaded.

    This page says unloaded means more than one action away from being fired: http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050200.htm

    I don't see anywhere in the code that provides LEOs to inspect the firearm to verify it is in this state.

    Do LEOs check people who are OCing in Utah and if so under what legal authorization?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I'm visiting Utah for a couple weeks camping this summer and understand that without a concealed handgun permit if you OC it has to be unloaded.

    This page says unloaded means more than one action away from being fired: http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050200.htm

    I don't see anywhere in the code that provides LEOs to inspect the firearm to verify it is in this state.

    Do LEOs check people who are OCing in Utah and if so under what legal authorization?
    A couple of points here:

    First----

    Here is the law that RESTRICTS the carry of LOADED weapons----

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050500.htm

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    Pay particular attention to (1)(b).... ON A PUBLIC STREET.

    Also look closely at (1)(a)... it prohibits the carry of a loaded weapon in a vehicle UNLESS (1) you are authorized to possess the vehicle or (2) have the permission of the one authorized to possess the vehicle and (3) are 18 years or older.

    (1)(c) refers to Secure portions of Airports, jails, mental hospitals, etc.

    Now, IF you have a permit issued by ANY STATE IN THE US Utah will recognize it and you will not be restricted by the Unloaded law.

    As a safety issue it is recommended to not load and unload the firearm as often as one may need to comply fully with this law.... Loaded in the house or on private property, unloaded on the public street, loaded in the vehicle, unloaded when crossing a public street to go to a store and then loaded while in the store.... BUT once you are in an area where you are NOT on a public street then you are good to go loaded. Know that UTAH considers a Temporary camp or tent sight as YOUR HOME and your are 100% legal to conceal or be fully loaded if you desire--- that is have a loaded firearm and or conceal at your home or in a vehicle.

    Some officers MAY not fully understand this but we are working on them as situations happen. THANKFULLY, we haven't had as many issues (per my understanding and memory) on this area as some others AND Utah has not made laws similar to Kommifornias "e-Check" law which allows an officer to check a weapon to make sure it is unloaded WITHOUT ANY PROBABLE CAUSE or REASONABLE ARTICULABLE SUSPICION that a crime is about to happen, is happening, or has just happened.

    Good luck on your anticipated trip and
    IANAL, the preceding is MY OPINION ONLY and is not legal advice. FOR legal advice ALWAYS contact a COMPETENT LAWYER.

    BTW, I have been OPEN CARRYING since June 2008 in UTAH, Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and NEVADA and I have NEVER been disarmed by any one or had the condition of my weapon checked---- even during a traffic stop! I do have a Utah permit.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 05-16-2011 at 10:18 AM.

  3. #3
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    You may not want to leave Utah after your visit. After all we do have the "craziest" gun laws in the country. In all the time that I have OC'd (2 years) I have never been stopped by police for an unload check... wouldn't matter anyway cause I have a permit. You have to be detained or they have to have probable cause. keep it holstered and you'll not likely have any issue. but like Joe said, I also am not a lawer.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I don't see anywhere in the code that provides LEOs to inspect the firearm to verify it is in this state.

    Do LEOs check people who are OCing in Utah and if so under what legal authorization?
    LEO are not allowed to perform a terry stop or detain you because you are openly carrying a firearm (Lund vs Salt Lake City). In the ruling, the judge said that state laws allow, and may even encourage the carrying of firearms, and that seeing someone carrying a firearm does not give LEO grounds to perform a stop. (obviously I paraphrased).

    Pretty much what happened, was a police officer saw Lund openly carrying a firearm, tackled him, which injured him. After 8 years of going back and forth in court, they settled out of court with Lund receiving $100,000.

    So, I wouldn't be too worried about LEO trying to stop you and verify that your gun is loaded, I have heard of a police officer asking if someone had a CFP because he saw the hammer back on a 1911 that was open carried, but I guess technically a police officer can ask you whatever he wants, but he/she can't detain you and you don't have to answer the questions.

    You might want to read over the ruling of Lund vs Salt Lake City, but you shouldn't have any problem. I carried open for a month and a half when I was waiting for my CFP, and had no problems whatsoever.

    If you have a CFP/CCW/CCP from any state, then you can carry fully loaded btw.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoZUpZ View Post
    LEO are not allowed to perform a terry stop or detain you because you are openly carrying a firearm (Lund vs Salt Lake City). In the ruling, the judge said that state laws allow, and may even encourage the carrying of firearms, and that seeing someone carrying a firearm does not give LEO grounds to perform a stop. (obviously I paraphrased).

    Pretty much what happened, was a police officer saw Lund openly carrying a firearm, tackled him, which injured him. After 8 years of going back and forth in court, they settled out of court with Lund receiving $100,000.

    So, I wouldn't be too worried about LEO trying to stop you and verify that your gun is loaded, I have heard of a police officer asking if someone had a CFP because he saw the hammer back on a 1911 that was open carried, but I guess technically a police officer can ask you whatever he wants, but he/she can't detain you and you don't have to answer the questions.

    You might want to read over the ruling of Lund vs Salt Lake City, but you shouldn't have any problem. I carried open for a month and a half when I was waiting for my CFP, and had no problems whatsoever.

    If you have a CFP/CCW/CCP from any state, then you can carry fully loaded btw.
    Actually, a report was received accusing Mr. Lund of threatening a specific person with a black firearm and the police according to the court decision used unlawful force in assaulting him, throwing him to the ground, and causing him injuries.

    Here is a link to the court decison

    http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/car...2008-12-04.pdf
    And Footnote #9 from pages 14-15 is quoted below.... Interesting reading!

    "9By itself, mere possession of a firearm in public is not unlawful and may well represent the exercise of a
    fundamental constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, 6 of the Utah Constitution (recognizing the “individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes,” subject to the power of the Legislature to define the “lawful use of arms.”). See District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 2799 (2008) (“There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms.”); see also Utah Code Ann. 76-10-500 to 530 (2003 & Supp. 2008) (Utah Firearms Act). In Utah, the carrying of a concealed weapon on one’s person in public is a matter of State licensing and regulation, and is routinely permitted pursuant to the applicable State statute. See Utah Code Ann. 53-5-701 to 711 (Supp. 2008). The legislature has explicitly denied local governmental entities such as Salt Lake City the power to limit or restrict possession of a firearm on public property: “Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entitymay not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.” Utah Code Ann. 53-5a-102 (Supp. 2008); see University of Utah v. Shurtleff, 2006 UT 51, 11, 144 P.3d 1109, 1113 (observing that the enactment of 53-5a-102 in 2004 “dramatically altered the legal landscape, rendering it clear that Utah’s firearms statutes are universally applicable”). The legislature has authorized municipalities only to “regulate and prevent the discharge of firearms, rockets, powder, fireworks or any other dangerous or combustible material.” Utah Code Ann. 10-8-47 (2007).
    As articulated by the Utah Legislature, public policy in this State may fairly be read to condone and even
    encourage gun ownership and the lawful possession and carrying of firearms in public places. Salt Lake City’s asserted governmental interest in its police officers’ response to a report of a “man with a gun” in a public park cannot be weighed in isolation from this oft-emphasized public policy. In that context, there may well be more individual constitutional rights at stake than the Fourth Amendment freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures." Reformated by me for readability but otherwise unchanged from source.

    Please note this particular case was heard and decided prior to the most recent US Supreme Court decision against Chicago that affirmed we each have a fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms that the STATES MUST ACCOMODATE!
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    Last edited by JoeSparky; 05-20-2011 at 12:13 AM.

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