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Thread: Sovereign Citizens

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Sovereign Citizens

    Did anyone else see this episode of 60 Minutes (Aired 5/15/2011)

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...in;cbsCarousel

    I had never heard of them prior to this.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    It is a stupid self-destructive ideology, but not terrorist. If they were trying to impose that ideology through the random killing of large numbers of innocents in the hope that, out of sheer terror, we would cave in to their wishes, then they'd be terrorists.

    Instead, they are simply criminals. Some of them violent.

    We are all indeed sovereign. We can choose to submit to the society in which we live, try to select another one, or live by our own rules. Each choice has consequences.

    Considering that, with all its failings, our society in the US is the best in the world, and not so far removed from the best it ever was that we cannot once again achieve that level of greatness, I choose to submit to this society that respects the individual more than any other on Earth. Almost all of us, for our own reasons, also remain a voluntary member of this collective. The consequence is that we often have to unjustly submit to the society's failings. The upside is that we are freer to do our will than we would be in total anarchy, where our neighbors would be able to take our freedom if they have the physical power to do so.

    The consequence of not submitting to the society that almost all of us accept is that one will be a criminal and will likely end up dead or in jail. Stupid. The upside is that he can do whatever is in his physical power to do (in the case of the father and son introduced in the story, not much) until society decides to stop him.

    Anyway, the real meaning of our individual sovereignty is that we, as a society, formed the government to whose rules we voluntarily submit; that we, as a people, are the ultimate source of the authority of the government. We, as true sovereigns, are free to change that government when enough of us are willing to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor when, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary.

    When we do it in a unified way, to secure the rights of all, it is a righteous revolution. When individuals do it in a way that even those who love Liberty think is criminal, then they are...well...criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    It is a stupid self-destructive ideology, but not terrorist. If they were trying to impose that ideology through the random killing of large numbers of innocents in the hope that, out of sheer terror, we would cave in to their wishes, then they'd be terrorists.

    Instead, they are simply criminals. Some of them violent.

    We are all indeed sovereign. We can choose to submit to the society in which we live, try to select another one, or live by our own rules. Each choice has consequences.

    Considering that, with all its failings, our society in the US is the best in the world, and not so far removed from the best it ever was that we cannot once again achieve that level of greatness, I choose to submit to this society that respects the individual more than any other on Earth. Almost all of us, for our own reasons, also remain a voluntary member of this collective. The consequence is that we often have to unjustly submit to the society's failings. The upside is that we are freer to do our will than we would be in total anarchy, where our neighbors would be able to take our freedom if they have the physical power to do so.

    The consequence of not submitting to the society that almost all of us accept is that one will be a criminal and will likely end up dead or in jail. Stupid. The upside is that he can do whatever is in his physical power to do (in the case of the father and son introduced in the story, not much) until society decides to stop him.

    Anyway, the real meaning of our individual sovereignty is that we, as a society, formed the government to whose rules we voluntarily submit; that we, as a people, are the ultimate source of the authority of the government. We, as true sovereigns, are free to change that government when enough of us are willing to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor when, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary.

    When we do it in a unified way, to secure the rights of all, it is a righteous revolution. When individuals do it in a way that even those who love Liberty think is criminal, then they are...well...criminals.
    +1

    Also, the "sovergn citizen" movement does more than not submit to the laws of society, they commit fraud at every opportunity it seems.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I watched the 60 Minutes program last night. Both sides of the issue were engaging in personal attacks against the other. Sovereign Citizens are no more dangerous than the Federal Government.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I watched the 60 Minutes program last night. Both sides of the issue were engaging in personal attacks against the other. Sovereign Citizens are no more dangerous than the Federal Government.
    So potentially they could be a huge threat to freedom and the nation?

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    My dad was watching this and I was at the table eating dinner, so I heard the show rather than watched it. It was full of the usual lefty media stuff, such as trying to connect what the one guy stated the 2nd amendment was really about and the Tuscon shooting. The interveiwer also seemed to scoff at the notion of the 2A being for keeping the gov in check( and not about duck hunting). I guess Thomas Jefferson and the rest of the rabble are also responsible for the Tuscon shooting and crazy soveriegn citizens...

    I actually started to argue with my parents when they said " what cuckoos" in reaction, and saying stuff about treason. Neither of them go online and research and see the things I see. Being a "free" person in and of itself is not treason, even shooting cops that pulled you over for a traffic stop is not treason ( but it IS murder).

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    The sad thing is that people call themselves US citizens, when it suits them, and will scream to the top of their lungs about their rights but openly refuse to use the laws we have to effect change. Instead, they inact their own ideas (not laws) and when those ideas are confronted by legal authorities, these individuals respond with violence.....no bueno.....

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    Watch out, we probably have a few sovereign citizens posting here. I am waiting for one of them to chime in and defend the criminal idiocy.

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    I could get into "sovereign lite", but some of those dudes are whackos. I absolutely think the goverment has FAR overstepped it's reach and authority and continues to do so daily.

    I also think that likely the only way to get it back is via some red stuff. (unfortunately)

    Too many politicians, judges, police, etc that don't care what the people they're supposed to represent think... They're just not going to get it.

    Taxes on top of taxes on top of taxes... careless spending... the downward spiral has commenced.

    If you think you're free, try taking a tussle with CPS or FOC... they don't even have to pass evidencial muster... he said/she said works fine for them.

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    They are a misnomer of the worst type.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I watched the 60 Minutes program last night. Both sides of the issue were engaging in personal attacks against the other. Sovereign Citizens are no more dangerous than the Federal Government.
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attacks, stalking, and harassing other members are all violations of the forum rules. If you disagree with another poster's positions, then address their positions and if they cross the line, then report it to me. Gunslinger has been given a 7 day timeout, after which I expect him to respect the rules. Anyone talking about him badly while he is not here to defend himself will face the same punishment. Let's keep it civil! JOHN
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Watch out, we probably have a few sovereign citizens posting here. I am waiting for one of them to chime in and defend the criminal idiocy.[/COLOR]
    What's with the white colored text?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    I could get into "sovereign lite", but some of those dudes are whackos. I absolutely think the goverment has FAR overstepped it's reach and authority and continues to do so daily.

    I also think that likely the only way to get it back is via some red stuff. (unfortunately)

    Too many politicians, judges, police, etc that don't care what the people they're supposed to represent think... They're just not going to get it.

    Taxes on top of taxes on top of taxes... careless spending... the downward spiral has commenced.

    If you think you're free, try taking a tussle with CPS or FOC... they don't even have to pass evidencial muster... he said/she said works fine for them.
    If this country collapses financially we are truly in trouble, people don't realize how close we are to this very thing and the country will we know today will not survive. At that point the government machine that is grinding our rights away wont have any real authority, just another police state coming to an end. So no matter the idiocy illegal or not, you better hope your shooting skills are well honed. No one will be able to save you, and this fake financial system we have wont save you, it will be nothing more than toilet paper.
    Last edited by zack991; 05-17-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Watch out, we probably have a few sovereign citizens posting here. I am waiting for one of them to chime in and defend the criminal idiocy.
    I consider myself to be a Sovereign American Civilian. I never advocate violence against any government agent. Government demonizes groups they don't like. I suppose none of your fellow US citizens ever used violence...There are bad apples in every barrel...they just need to be removed. It is not hard to deal with the government after you realize they are a private Corporation. They are under the Uniform Commercial Code and there are ways to deal with them under that code.
    All court cases from Erie Railroad V Thompkins , where the Federal Common Law (Constitutional Law) stopped, are all commercial.
    The Federal Municipal Corporation (inc. 1871) is committing a FRAUD against the people, and I don't have to support it.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

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    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    "Domestic terrorist threat?" Oh, please! Not all non-taxpayers have the skills of Wesley Snipes, but neither Snipes nor the vast majority of these lawbreakers have a shred of terrorism in them.

    A terrorist is someone who does bad things to innocent civilians in order to achieve maximum media attention towards one's cause. Refusal or failure to pay one's taxes in no way, shape, manner, or form, fits that definition.

    As for getting a drivers license, again, not a requirement, so long as they're not driving. If they're driving, they should get a license.

    Even those who become violent do not meet the definition of a terrorist. For the FBI to use that term is flat out wrong. Criminals are violent. That doesn't make them terrorists, as they're not committing violence in order to draw maximum attention to their cause.

    Whenever a "sovereign citizen" resorts to violence, they're simply beginning, or adding to their criminal activity.

    Our country has both rights and privileges. Commensurate with these, however, are both responsibilities and minimally acceptable standards of behavior. If you want Social Security, you must responsibly pay your taxes. If you want to carry a firearm, you must exhibit behavior void of things like intoxication and brandishing.

    I say let people self-identify, and if they want to belong to one of these groups, their rights and privileges are correspondingly reduced or curtailed, including free emergency medical care. Something which I don't think ever should have been extended to illegal aliens.

    Legal aliens, like students, spouses and children of Americans, ambassadors, green-card employees? Sure!

    But NOT illegal aliens.

    In fact, their status should reside somewhere between "United States citizen" and "illegal alien." They can stay, but whatever rights and privileges they may enjoy are only commensurate with their lawful participation on various programs. Want to drive? Get a license. Want Soc Sec? Pay your taxes.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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