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Thread: Just an idea:

  1. #1
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Just an idea:

    Just an idea:
    I know dang well we all want real OC by next year and we're gonna fight tooth-and-nail to get it, but if there's no way for it to happen with our current Senate, do you think we could get them to expand the current list of exemptions, "fishing, camping, or legal hunting," a step in the right direction, to something more like "fishing, camping, hiking, boating, or legal hunting, and bicycling/riding ATVs in state or national forests and parks"?
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

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    Several months ago, I was talking to one of Thad Altman’s legislative assistants . I didn’t get a definite timeline, but I got the idea that the plan to get OC in Florida runs something like this:

    Step 1. Pass open carry of handguns for CCW holders.
    Step 2. When the sky doesn’t fall, pass open of handguns carry for all law-abiding citizens.
    Step 3. When the sky doesn’t fall, pass open carry of long guns for all law-abiding citizens.

    I’d expect this to take at least 3-5 years, but a SCOTUS decision might speed things up.

    The hard fact is that going from where we are now to what I believe the Framers intended - open carry of any weapon an ordinary infantryman would carry - is going to have to be done in stages. I'd love to see it done in one step, but that's not a political reality.

  3. #3
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Rich just said something about working on expanding the OC-legal list like I mentioned. Good to know I'm in company that keeps up with or exceeds me in the alternate-thinking department
    Whatever it is, we've gotta get something through them each year.

    Perhaps we can make a point that banning OC and charging what amounts to a rights-tax for CC licensing is unconstitutional, and make them choose between money and "look, no guns!"?
    I suppose, awful as it is, that they could constitutionally ban OC because of the crappy wording in Florida's watered-down RKBA article, but to do that and charge for the only remaining right is breaking their own rules...
    Last edited by ~*'Phoenix'*~; 05-16-2011 at 02:26 PM.
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

  4. #4
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    How could we go about changning the Florida Constitution's watery RKBA to match the wording of the U.S. 2nd Amendment, and give our fight a little more teeth?
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Sean is writing next year's OC bill now. I'll work for whatever he has planned. This year was 1 vote short of licensed OC anywhere you can CC. I don't mind the idea of a modest timeline, but we really need licensed OC by the end of Scott's first term. With all the bad that is going on with the economy the electorate is thrashing back and forth between the two parties hoping one of them will "fix" it. If you get an anti in the governor's office we can kiss OC goodbye for at least a 4 year stint. . So let's assume we have a maximum of 3 more sessions to do it in and do as much as we can for the movement in 2011-2012.

    Constitutional carry will only come once licensed OC is here and more states do it. Looks like it's catching on in the freer states already.

    Oh, and root for Texas. The best thing that can happen outside of our state this year is for TX to successfully tack on their licensed OC to other legislation and get it passed.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~*'Phoenix'*~ View Post
    How could we go about changning the Florida Constitution's watery RKBA to match the wording of the U.S. 2nd Amendment, and give our fight a little more teeth?
    It wasn't written by a freedom lover, for sure. But, it may not need to be changed. I think regulating the "manner" of bearing arms means 790.10, or saying you have to carry in a holster, etc.

    What the constitution really says right now is "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, except that bearing them concealed is a privilege and bearing them openly is banned."

    But most judges are "Party Members" like in the novel 1984. Remember when O'Brien is teaching Winston that 2+2=5? In the same way, the supreme court of Fl would sit there with a straight face and tell you, eloquently, that current law conforms nicely with the state constitution.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  7. #7
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    This year was 1 vote short of licensed OC anywhere you can CC.
    That freakin' sucks... I wish they would have just said "screw that!" to Bogdanoff's amendment and voted and let it die instead, so we knew for sure who we had to replace.
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~*'Phoenix'*~ View Post
    That freakin' sucks... I wish they would have just said "screw that!" to Bogdanoff's amendment and voted and let it die instead, so we knew for sure who we had to replace.
    Which is precisely why they didn't do it.

    Instead, they changed it enough to wipe away all precedent on currently law, while adding subjectivity to ensure prosecution for accidental exposure instead of protection from it. Before this, there was precedent protecting us. Now, it's whatever the cops feel like putting in their report.

    Ambiguity and subjectivity are NEVER used to the Victim's/Citizens' advantage. Any time such a thing exists in statute, LEOs abuse it. Always.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~*'Phoenix'*~ View Post
    Rich just said something about working on expanding the OC-legal list like I mentioned. Good to know I'm in company that keeps up with or exceeds me in the alternate-thinking department
    Whatever it is, we've gotta get something through them each year.

    Perhaps we can make a point that banning OC and charging what amounts to a rights-tax for CC licensing is unconstitutional, and make them choose between money and "look, no guns!"?
    I suppose, awful as it is, that they could constitutionally ban OC because of the crappy wording in Florida's watered-down RKBA article, but to do that and charge for the only remaining right is breaking their own rules...
    Correct sir! The draft is in the works right now and will be submitted next cycle.
    Rich
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    www.floridacarry.org
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    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  10. #10
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Correct sir! The draft is in the works right now and will be submitted next cycle.
    So we've already conceded full, licensed OC is dead next year too?
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    So we've already conceded full, licensed OC is dead next year too?
    Starting to feel kind of....French? isnt it

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    Exclamation Senator Haridopolos,

    Senator Haridopolos, WANTS TO BE YOUR NEXT (US SENATOR IN THE NEXT ELECTION) HOW ABOUT THAT!!

  13. #13
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    Exclamation Senator Haridopolos

    Senator Haridopolos, WANTS TO BE YOUR NEXT (US SENATOR IN THE NEXT ELECTION) HOW ABOUT THAT!!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    So we've already conceded full, licensed OC is dead next year too?
    Given that there is no election of legislators prior to November 2012, it's a sure bet that we would get either the same or less support for OC in the coming legislative session. Remember, it took seven years to get shall-issue concealed carry through.
    Last edited by Rich7553; 05-16-2011 at 10:54 PM.
    Rich
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    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
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    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Remember, it took seven years to get shall-issue concealed carry through.
    ...which was obtained by eliminating Licensed OC. Why? Because it might scare ******-bags. And the LEOs made all the same arguments against it then as they make for it now...

    Stick a fork in Floriduh. It's done. I'm all for a futile cause just because it's the right thing to do. But life is short and I want to be a free man before I die.

    Time to GTFO.
    Last edited by ixtow; 05-16-2011 at 11:18 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  16. #16
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Our progun senators have other priorities anyway, like making sure people can't take pictures of farms.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...eated-05162011

    The more I analyze the situation, the more pre-2011 I'm feeling again.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    An honest examination of the environment that Floriduh is, shows us that this was probably our only chance and it has passed us by.

    I'm gonna miss the springs, rivers, 300 year old oak trees, smoked mullet, boiled not-so-cajun peanuts, and the lack of compulsory motorcycle insurance...

    I really wanted this. :-( But Sonora Rebel made the same trade and he says he never looked back. I'll take his word over a room full of Floriduh Politicians any day. In fact, I've offended myself for even mentioning the two in the same paragraph and must now slap myself.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Our progun senators have other priorities anyway, like making sure people can't take pictures of farms.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...eated-05162011

    The more I analyze the situation, the more pre-2011 I'm feeling again.
    Dont forget Bedding Materials and 3-hr debates about What's a sinkhole...some priorities there..yup, def. gotta resume begging and grovelling to these clowns ASAP..

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    It wasn't written by a freedom lover, for sure. But, it may not need to be changed. I think regulating the "manner" of bearing arms means 790.10, or saying you have to carry in a holster, etc.

    What the constitution really says right now is "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, except that bearing them concealed is a privilege and bearing them openly is banned."

    But most judges are "Party Members" like in the novel 1984. Remember when O'Brien is teaching Winston that 2+2=5? In the same way, the supreme court of Fl would sit there with a straight face and tell you, eloquently, that current law conforms nicely with the state constitution.
    The way SOCUS has been going is very much in the right direction, when it comes to gun rights. It's slow, of course, like everything in the legal system, but the Heller (DC) and Mcdonald (Chi-town) cases are definitely steps in the right direction.

    What I mean is: the stooges in this issue are in our own backyard, not in the US Supreme Court.

    Though Alito left some open space for the existence of gun laws (felons, children, etc.), the right of folks to defend themselves with guns is now sacrosanct case law (incorporated to the states by the 14th amendment).

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    ...which was obtained by eliminating Licensed OC. Why? Because it might scare ******-bags. And the LEOs made all the same arguments against it then as they make for it now...

    Stick a fork in Floriduh. It's done. I'm all for a futile cause just because it's the right thing to do. But life is short and I want to be a free man before I die.

    Time to GTFO.
    Let the gas prices keep rising; let the middle east keep getting hotter; let the president continue to differ from his state department; let the folks get angrier at the economic situation. This bubbling cauldron will make you a free man in Florida by 2012. The next election cycle is going to be massive.

  21. #21
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    An honest examination of the environment that Floriduh is, shows us that this was probably our only chance and it has passed us by.

    I'm gonna miss the springs, rivers, 300 year old oak trees, smoked mullet, boiled not-so-cajun peanuts, and the lack of compulsory motorcycle insurance...

    I really wanted this. :-( But Sonora Rebel made the same trade and he says he never looked back. I'll take his word over a room full of Floriduh Politicians any day. In fact, I've offended myself for even mentioning the two in the same paragraph and must now slap myself.
    Well, you could drive about an hour north and live in a brown, soon to be gold state: http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.../HB582-int.pdf

    You could come to Fl carry lobby days in Tally and still support us.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    Let the gas prices keep rising; let the middle east keep getting hotter; let the president continue to differ from his state department; let the folks get angrier at the economic situation. This bubbling cauldron will make you a free man in Florida by 2012. The next election cycle is going to be massive.
    I predict the next election cycle will lean heavily left. There are just so many more of them. And there isn't anyone else to vote for. The Nation will collapse under their weight. The Right looks and acts like the Left now. We have a one party system.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  23. #23
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    This bubbling cauldron will make you a free man in Florida by 2012. The next election cycle is going to be massive.
    "If voting worked they'd make it illegal" lol
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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