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Thread: Non-res open carry

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    Non-res open carry

    It is generally advised that a resident of Maryland can lawfully transport a handgun, unloaded of course, to Virginia for the purpose of open/concealed carry. Correct?

    I have searched the forum and found out that it is legal to open carry on the VA Metro stops. However, would there be any ramifications for an individual transporting an unloaded and locked(extra precaution) handgun from a Maryland Metro stop to a Virginia Metro stop for the purpose of open/concealed carry?

    Let's say from Branch Ave. to Ballston as an example.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ST19AG_WGreymon View Post
    It is generally advised that a resident of Maryland can lawfully transport a handgun, unloaded of course, to Virginia for the purpose of open/concealed carry. Correct?

    I have searched the forum and found out that it is legal to open carry on the VA Metro stops. However, would there be any ramifications for an individual transporting an unloaded and locked(extra precaution) handgun from a Maryland Metro stop to a Virginia Metro stop for the purpose of open/concealed carry?

    Let's say from Branch Ave. to Ballston as an example.

    Thanks in advance.
    Look up the laws for both States.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST19AG_WGreymon View Post
    It is generally advised that a resident of Maryland can lawfully transport a handgun, unloaded of course, to Virginia for the purpose of open/concealed carry. Correct?

    I have searched the forum and found out that it is legal to open carry on the VA Metro stops. However, would there be any ramifications for an individual transporting an unloaded and locked(extra precaution) handgun from a Maryland Metro stop to a Virginia Metro stop for the purpose of open/concealed carry?

    Let's say from Branch Ave. to Ballston as an example.

    Thanks in advance.
    It's been a while since I've looked at a Metro map, but can you travel from Branch Ave (MD?) to Ballston on the Metro without going thru DC?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    It's been a while since I've looked at a Metro map, but can you travel from Branch Ave (MD?) to Ballston on the Metro without going thru DC?
    Nope.

    http://www.wmata.com/rail/docs/colormap_lettersize.pdf

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    That would indeed be the sticking point.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I assume the question is in relation to the Firearm Owners Protection Act, which supersedes state law regarding the interstate transport of firearms under certain conditions.

    IANAL, but it appears to me that the FOPA does not take public transportation into account. The NRA page on FOPA emphasizes that the firearm in transit must be locked and inaccessible. That's pretty hard to satisfy on Metro.

    TFred

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    SCOTUS ruled in Revell vs. Port Authority of NY and NJ that you have no FOPA protection if the firearm is in your POSSESSION. There would be no way for you to travel on Metro and not be in POSSESSION of the firearm, even if in a locked case,

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    We're assuming everyone knows that open carry is perfectly legal in Va., right? So the issue is how to get the gun into Virginia? The issue really isn't "possession" it's immediate access - the statute presupposes that the firearm will be locked in a container within the vehicle being used for transportation. I think you'll have a hard time persuading the D.C. Superior Court that a Metro car is such a vehicle, or that you didn't have immediate access to the container during transportion.

    18 USC Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
    Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    User you are correct. IIRC SCOTUS ruled that by taking POSSESSION of his suitcase Mr. Revell had ACCESS to the firearm. I think I didn't quote the ruling correctly. You are right as always sir


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I wonder how it would play out if you put the gun in a securely locked case (i.e. not one with a show-lock, but a lock that actually kept you out...) and then mailed the key to yourself ahead of time in your destination state. If you truly did not possess the key to the securely locked box... seems you could make a good argument that you did not have access during the transport.

    TFred

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    Now that, I really like that idea!


    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wonder how it would play out if you put the gun in a securely locked case (i.e. not one with a show-lock, but a lock that actually kept you out...) and then mailed the key to yourself ahead of time in your destination state. If you truly did not possess the key to the securely locked box... seems you could make a good argument that you did not have access during the transport.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wonder how it would play out if you put the gun in a securely locked case (i.e. not one with a show-lock, but a lock that actually kept you out...) and then mailed the key to yourself ahead of time in your destination state. If you truly did not possess the key to the securely locked box... seems you could make a good argument that you did not have access during the transport.

    TFred
    Or you could give the key to a trusted friend who would take the same trains, but ride on a different car. After all, what would you do if the USPS lost your mail?

    To elaborate on User's post about convincing the DC Court that a Metro rail car meets the FOPA requirements of a vehicle; it may not matter. One cannot ride the same train between the two points in question. One must change from the Green Line to the Orange Line at the Archives, leaving one afoot with the "item" within DC.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Wow great point and I've lived here my whole life. You must have worked in DC at some point.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Wow great point and I've lived here my whole life. You must have worked in DC at some point.
    Guilty as charged, but I also looked at Blk97F150's Metro Map...
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Thanks for all the info guys.

    I'm thinking of this: Transporting it in a locked case with the key at my friends' place that I visit very often in VA(main reason I go there). No key will be on me, hence it is NOT accessible. Of course I'd have a copy at my residence in Maryland.

    Yay or nay?

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Method of transport? car, train, boat, plane?

    If you are going through DC and have to change trains, I'd forget it if it was me.

    You can UPS it to yourself. Must go next day and you must declare the weapon to the carrier. I think Fed EX will only ship to an FFL. Check their web site.
    Last edited by swinokur; 05-19-2011 at 06:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ST19AG_WGreymon View Post
    Thanks for all the info guys.

    I'm thinking of this: Transporting it in a locked case with the key at my friends' place that I visit very often in VA(main reason I go there). No key will be on me, hence it is NOT accessible. Of course I'd have a copy at my residence in Maryland.

    Yay or nay?
    Why not just leave it at your friends house all the time? Or borrow one of his/hers while you are in Virginia?

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    How about if you just drive?

    No one is arguing the fact that you are allowed to carry in Virginia, the legalities of how it gets here is on you as the gun owner.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    We're assuming everyone knows that open carry is perfectly legal in Va., right? So the issue is how to get the gun into Virginia? The issue really isn't "possession" it's immediate access - the statute presupposes that the firearm will be locked in a container within the vehicle being used for transportation. I think you'll have a hard time persuading the D.C. Superior Court that a Metro car is such a vehicle, or that you didn't have immediate access to the container during transportion.


    18 USC Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
    Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    It seems like one could carry it in a locked strongbox and not be afoul of the law.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I think carrying it gives you access which will not give you FOPA protection. As USER pointed out, having access is the problem. Even if locked, you have access.

    See Revell vs Port Authority of NY and NJ

    I think shipping it to yourself is the safest method. IANAL

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Method of transport? car, train, boat, plane?

    If you are going through DC and have to change trains, I'd forget it if it was me.

    You can UPS it to yourself. Must go next day and you must declare the weapon to the carrier. I think Fed EX will only ship to an FFL. Check their web site.
    UPS will ship a firearm to any real address (not a po box). Hehe last time mine went on tour without me the packing label said "office equipment"

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    UPS will ship a firearm to any real address (not a po box). Hehe last time mine went on tour without me the packing label said "office equipment"
    Be careful. If you do not declare your firearm to the carrier and it is lost, the carrier is not responsible for the shipment or reimbursing you. read the terms of agreement at the UPS site.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Be careful. If you do not declare your firearm to the carrier and it is lost, the carrier is not responsible for the shipment or reimbursing you. read the terms of agreement at the UPS site.
    It was insured for more than its purchase price.

    It is posible they thought it was a hard drive or some such. But with a shipping address of Glock, Smyrna GA, I thought it was just funny they would actually ask what was in the box.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    It was insured for more than its purchase price.

    It is posible they thought it was a hard drive or some such. But with a shipping address of Glock, Smyrna GA, I thought it was just funny they would actually ask what was in the box.
    Doesn't matter if you insured it for a million dollars and had Glock's name on it. If you falsify what is in the box and don't disclose the shipment as a firearm, and it's lost, you get nada.

    UPS WEB Site :

    • When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
    • See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.



    US Code Tite 18 Chapter 44 SS 922
    A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
    So not only is UPS not obligated to pay a claim based on false information, you violated Federal law. I don't see where the carrier is to assume what the contents are based on the shipping address.
    Last edited by swinokur; 05-27-2011 at 02:25 PM.

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