-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
STL Police memo about open carry
- Thread starter lancers
- Start date
The only reason it's not "positive" is because I happen to disagree with you. Alot.
I disagree with Doc a bit too, guess what the cool part is, Doc respects all opinions and listens to others position, presents his own and do4es so without a negative slant on the opposing opinion.
IMHO he does it a LOT better than others, significantly better than myself.
Also IMHO, Festus, your comments often are instigating in nature, I feel I can say that because quite frankly there are many occasions where mine are indeed crafted in that manner and I find it easy to spot the same similarities.
You see the photos as self promotion, I see them as support for those whom choose not to restrict. EVERY single event I have attended on "Doc's tour" were NOT photo ops, but indeed all participants spent monies with the business showing support for their support.
Instead of being critical of what you do not understand, give one a shot and see if your impressions remain the same instead of stereotyping what you know nothing about.
You are welcome to come to Chevy's and have dinner. I can almost guarantee someone is gonna take pictures and post em, just like we did when we went to Maplewood to at least try and make a difference.
You can point and complain about what you do not know if that is how you choose to live, or you can come and see and then voice an informed opinion instead of whining from the cheap seats.
ChiangShih
Regular Member
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
LMTD, if I was closer I would man, believe me. On the other hand, folks in the bigger cities don't have alot of luck it seems when it comes to OC. I'm happy here in the capitol city where they pretty much leave us alone. I'm not much of a big-city guy really...lol.
As for me not agreeing with Doc and some others, I fully understand that people don't agree all the time, and I'm fine with that, it just seems they are not fine when I bring something up that was said or have a differing opinion. Like I said before, we can disagree without one of us being "wrong", especially when we are talking about " God give rights" and such. There is no ONE WAY to view it, there is multiple ways. Alot of folks get bent when your opinion is different than another's. I don't.
On the other hand, folks in the bigger cities don't have alot of luck it seems when it comes to OC. I'm happy here in the capitol city where they pretty much leave us alone. I'm not much of a big-city guy really...lol.As for me not agreeing with Doc and some others, I fully understand that people don't agree all the time, and I'm fine with that, it just seems they are not fine when I bring something up that was said or have a differing opinion. Like I said before, we can disagree without one of us being "wrong", especially when we are talking about " God give rights" and such. There is no ONE WAY to view it, there is multiple ways. Alot of folks get bent when your opinion is different than another's. I don't.
Last edited:
whats the difference between standing outside of a city hall and standing outside of a grocery store?
as far as i remember, every post doc wrote stated he did what he did for open carry awareness.
i say the city was aware and got attention.
mission accomplished in my eyes.
as far as i remember, every post doc wrote stated he did what he did for open carry awareness.
i say the city was aware and got attention.
mission accomplished in my eyes.
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
Wouldn't matter. I'm not into pushing my agenda on folks that don't want to see it, no matter where it is at.
I'm not into photo-ops, sorry.
Last edited:
Again you are talking about stuff you do not know sir.
Doc did the photos and postings to show open carry in action as it is NOT popular within the metro area, most cops if asked about it in a fully polite manner will absolutely LIE about it and say it is illegal to DISCOURAGE it.
Doc put his photos up to show it was indeed NOT illegal and to ENCOURAGE it.
You are almost as bad as the anti's when it comes to stereotyping others and you really picked the wrong target. I have been talking with Doc for a couple of years now and one thing you are 100% off on at all levels is your assessment of HIM.
I do find it odd that you open carry but seem to think everyone else open carries for the wrong reason, odd is to say the least.
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
See, here we go again. I have a DIFFERENT opinion than you, and I'm " the bad guy" . :/
I'm not "talking about stuff I don't know" . I'm talking about what I would do, which I would think I'm the one that would know what I speak of better than alot of others.
This isn't about Doc or what he does. What he does is his business and I support his right to be able to do that. I'm not sure why others can't do the same when it comes to MY opinion. You may not like it, but you don't have to. Just realize yours isn't the "end-all" solution and people may think different.
I don't care why Doc takes the pictures. I've said before and I'll say it again, it's showboating, but more power to him, it's still a free country. Just don't get mad when I don't enjoy the show.
Again, YOU brought up why Doc does ... whatever. Again, I could care less.
Really ? Well first off, I'll tell you what "I" think so we can be on the same page, because your not even in the library I'm in.
Please point out where I've said ANYBODY is OC'ing for the wrong reasons . I think everyone is open carrying for protection, at least I am.
I'm sorry if you and Doc and others may not like the fact that I don't want to do showboating or grandstanding or photo-ops. Sorry, I'm not into all that. I still don't see why that would bother you as much as it seems to. :question:
I'm not trying to be a dick about anything, but man, you guys need to let it go when someone doesn't want to do what you think they should, I can think for myself.
Last edited:
Ok, take your meds.
You brought up the pictures at starbucks etc all by yourself, reread the thread if you remain confused about that.
That is not what you say and imply, you even stated the way others do it causes you harm by risking your rights.
You remain welcome to join in any time you want, you can even continue to espouse negative comments if you want, I just think it serves little to no purpose and clearly by your comments you have made a lot of stereotypical decisions about a lot of folks whom you have never met which is pretty much the basis for all prejudiced so rock on, your a full grown man do as you wish, I am out of it.
mspgunner
Regular Member
The best example of OC/LEO encounters I personally have had (I don't OC a lot I live in Wildwood) was when the Bridgeton Offcier came out during the City hal ltour. I guess there were 8 of us OCers right outside the Police dept. entrance. He never batted and eye, just came out to see if there was anything he could do fior us.
Straight to the point, no problems! That was nice of him to ask.
It's a good thing when LEOs are accepting of OCers.. No probelms=good relationships.
This is the way it should be, one day it will!
Straight to the point, no problems! That was nice of him to ask.
It's a good thing when LEOs are accepting of OCers.. No probelms=good relationships.
This is the way it should be, one day it will!
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
Ok. I dosed up. Thanks for reminding me.
All I said was I'm not into that stuff. That's all. That's it. I didn't tell him it was " bad " . I just don't do it. :idea:
In Brett's case, you are correct. As I remember, you and Doc weren't real thrilled with it either.
In You and Doc's case, not so. I think it's good to do what you do in a safe manner and preferably places where it's not as frowned upon. Do it with dignity and respect like you all seem to do is great. Again, it's just not for me.
Not sure how you get that, but that wasn't my intention. Again, I just have an opinion. It's different than yours.
I can't speak for Doc. I am disappointed that Maplewood opted to USE Brett as the excuse to take a totalitarian approach to the situation, I am DISAPPOINTED in Brett's handling of the situation but would put more than a little blame on YOUTH. Brett may not be a fan of myself, nor I a fan of his, however, his rights were violated I have no doubt and an anti-gun police department used an anti-gun media outlet and Brett's notoriety to exploit the rights of all, that I despise, however the blame does not lay at Bretts feet.
I suppose I simply do not understand the "how" of OC.
Either you OC or you do not and if you do depending upon the area in which you live, it is accepted at differing levels.If you OC in an area it is not particularly popular, you should indeed likely protect yourself with video cameras, it is afterall the only chance you have as courts seem to give more merit to police testimony than they do citizens, something proven hundreds of thousands of times.
Life is short, we shall all live through it. Too bad you can't make it Sunday night.
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
I understand where your coming from and agree with you, his rights WERE violated. Was it because he is a thorn in their side or something we don't know about? Maybe. We may never know unless he takes it to court.
I agree. I have went shooting with folks around here from AR15.com and Mocarry, but there doesn't seem to be alot of members from the JC area on here. I'm just too far, man .
I personally ( this is just my way of doing things, you may be different and that is fine
) would not OC in an area where it is " not particularly popular " . I would avoid the hassle at all times and would not need a camera . Again, confrontation is not my style. And once again I hear the talk about the camera and the courts, and again I say, how many people that have their 2nd amendment rights violated take it to court ? I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking. I just don't see a ton of stories about, but may not be looking on the right boards. I dunno .One question here I guess. Is there a law firm/ lawyer that would take cases like this or the one that BCal was just in that would work pro-bono FOR gun rights that were violated ? It seems there are alot ( I know Doc ... a lot
) of these cases that folks say they would basically have a slam-dunk in court, but not alot do. I was just wondering aloud earlier on that one.....Quote edited for clarity only, not content.
Put your lawyer hat on, when I do so this is what I get out of it though I am not a lawyer,
1. Yes and no IMHO. I would tend to feel it was age, slightly confrontational method, and "roadside court" method employed from the beginning.
2. I am fairly sure without hundreds of hours of work, we will not answer that and some that do may well included non-disclosure elements that render them some what inconclusive.
3. Not when the victim can not prove out significant damages. If as reported by the media which has no element of truth that is defined, an "unemployed person with a painting contracting business" is not going to have a lot of "provable" damages for a few hours of detainment that resulted in no charges. If he had a contract with a huge project he lost because of inability to deliver services contracted for because of the illegal detainment, it could be ugly, if not I believe it would be an insignificant settlement that is not worth an atty's time. Not how it SHOULD be, but pretty much how it is these days, its a legal system not a justice system.
I see settlement cases across the states where it is public and the amounts are pretty small, under 50k. 2A issues are the subject of a lot of debate and seem to take a LOT of time. With the average hourly around 150 an hour and court time at 300, it does not make a lot of business sense to take on one that takes a lot of time and pays out small. Easier to manipulate the system to cost Insurance companies into settling civil matters than it is sovereign governments whom fully understand the limits.
Should not be that way, but IMHO it is and it is not likely to change. A lawyer with a political agenda MIGHT take the right case if they can forward that agenda through a win but that would require the right client and the right timing.
ChiangShih
Regular Member
I think there is also the realization that taking a department or officer to court may spur the municipality and others around it to ban OC as a preventative measure or in direct response to the case. I'm not saying this would happen, but the possibility remains. If an OCer deals with the LEOs and there is not a lot of harm done on either side except some wasted time and bruised egos, it is probably best to just move on. I know that is counterintuitive for a lot of guys but after the realities of court cost and attorney fees, its usually the best route. As long as OC can still be regulated at a municipal level the push for OC is a PR battle. Good relations with LEOs, city officials, and the public is what will sustain pro-OC areas.
Simply put, confrontation = loss for the movement. In this mindset I can also see how the city hall tour may be misperceived by some. I too, when first seeing the photos, felt it was a bit of showboating and more of a confrontational in your face tactic to city officials. I understand the thinking behind it on the OC side but I'm not sure if that message is properly received on the public and official side. So, I agree with festus in that respect, while I get what the STL side is saying about the city hall tour, I wouldn't personally take part in it or something similar on the KC side. But if they have seen positive response, more power to them.
sohighlyunlikely
Regular Member
The city hall tour was not designed to "showboat" as it has been put. It was done as an education tool to those who doubt the legality of OC in some of the urban jurisdictions. People in these urban areas have been so bombarded with fear mongering messages from LEO's in these areas that they both are unsure if it is legal and even if it was were fearful of LEOs bending the laws to punish those who used their 2nd Amendment rights. I have been an avid urban OCer for some time now and I would here the same remarks. "Well a cop hasn't noticed" and "well you do it on private property, if no one complains then the cops don't care" With thoughts like that even people that had seen OC were in belief that I was just flying under the radar, and they still questioned it's legality.
So what better way to dispel their doubts. You who believe exposure will affect a negative change are living in fear. If you want nothing to change keep up doing nothing and you may get your wish. We are to few in numbers to ever be taken seriously on a state level. It is only with expose to others who want freedoms as well that this movement can move forward. Or just sit back and hope that we tag along with the agenda of the other states and get state wide OC just because so many other states got it and the politicians play "keeping up with the Jones's". Our numbers have grown quite a bit since I started this path. You can call it coincidence if you like. But I think it because tho wool has been pulled from the eyes of many and they have awakened to a taste of freedoms and person responsibilities that is Open Carry.
Doc
While I had OC'ed long long before your Starbucks support tour, I also had lived extremely rural and had helped as many police officers as there were in the area over the years, from mowin their hay, helping their mom's out in the garden to pulling them out of the ditch in their cruiser or personal cars, it was different, they knew me by name and my family from before I was born so to speak.
Within the urban environment I do not think I would have ever taken a serious look at the effort at all if I had not met and talked to you in person.
So to those whom have distaste for my thoughts, blame Doc, its all his fault I stuck around lol!
mspgunner
Regular Member
Through DOC I learned about OC, did the City Hall tour and gained confidence. I'd never really thought about OC in the urban environment. I OC'd never even thinking about it one way or the other a dozen years ago out in rural Crawford Co., NO ONE CARED, DIDN'T EVEN CROSS MY MIND TO OC, JUST DID.
I have others interested in OC and eager to learn. The movement and education is growing, thanks to DOC.
I have others interested in OC and eager to learn. The movement and education is growing, thanks to DOC.
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
First of all, I want to say I have no problems with what you do Doc.
As for the change, see this thread and my post from July 2010 :
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-have-not-got-locked..&p=1310336#post1310336
Like I said back then, BEFORE the Maplewood incident, people have to be careful how you do this or like
ChiangShih said:
...it can and WILL happen if not done properly.
And Doc, I'm not speaking of your way. Like I said, I have no problems with you doing what you do, but others may not be as " polite " about it and ruin it for everyone.
I'm a gun guy ..... and I called it almost a year ago, then BAM. Maplewood up and done it at lightning speed after the Wally World encounter by Lancer. He made my point for me in amazing fashion.
Last edited: